14:59:09 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:59:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc 14:59:12 Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:59:20 Meeting: RDFa Task Force 14:59:27 zakim, this will be rdfa 14:59:27 ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 15:01:25 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jun/0074.html 15:01:30 rrsagent, please make record public 15:01:49 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-06-14 15:02:06 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 15:02:13 +Ralph 15:02:14 be right along..... 15:04:10 zakim, dial steven-617 15:04:10 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:04:11 +Steven 15:05:47 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 15:05:49 +Ben_Adida 15:05:51 +ShaneM 15:05:54 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:06:05 Chair: Ben 15:06:17 zakim, pick a victim 15:06:17 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Adida 15:06:24 zakim, pick a victim 15:06:24 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph 15:06:33 Scribe: Ralph 15:07:02 Regrets: Michael 15:07:42 Topic: Action Items 15:08:26 ACTION: Ben to add @RESOURCE and @HREF to his task list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] 15:08:41 -- done 15:08:52 Ben: that action was to remind me to put those back on today's agenda 15:08:54 +??P17 15:08:59 ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 15:09:07 zakim, ??p17 is Mark 15:09:07 +Mark; got it 15:11:19 -- continues 15:11:26 Ben: I'm still gathering information 15:11:37 [DONE] ACTION: Ben to take care of issues 2, 5, 25,28, 29 via list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action16] 15:12:28 ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] 15:13:08 http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action02 15:14:07 http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#item03 15:15:42 Ben: we have Primer, Syntax, Use Cases, and Test Cases 15:15:58 q+ 15:16:12 ... Primer is in pretty good shape, Syntax has to be in shape in 4 to 6 weeks 15:16:40 Steven: Shane would like the Syntax document integrated with the XHTML2 WG publication system 15:17:02 ... but that means dropping xmlspec 15:17:03 Ben: we agreed that we would like to enlist Shane 15:17:15 ... so OK to move source to XHTML 15:17:48 ... Shane said there wouldn't be much of the XHTML2 pubs syntax I need to learn for RDFa 15:18:48 Steven: I feel that only normative text should be Rec-track 15:19:09 ... I don't see the added value to put a primer through Rec 15:19:35 ... test cases can be part of a package with syntax; during CR the test cases are used 15:19:44 ... but the test suite does not need to be Rec 15:20:02 ... CR package is the Syntax document supported by the test cases 15:20:34 ... in particular, test cases don't go in www.w3.org/TR because we want to be able to update them without going through a whole publication cycle 15:20:45 ... only the [Syntax] specification goes in /TR 15:20:58 Mark: that applies to DTDs and schemas as well 15:21:00 Steven: yes 15:21:49 Mark: Ivan commented that CURIE spec was "nothing but a note" 15:21:57 Steven: I think CURIE should be Rec-track 15:22:08 Shane: Ivan was wrong -- CURIE is a Working Draft 15:25:08 Ralph: historically, we've put our most up-to-date decisions about design into the Primer 15:25:25 ... if we're deciding here that all normative text is only in the Syntax document, then I'm happy 15:25:49 Mark: if we keep the Primer as Note then we can update it more easily 15:26:25 ... and could update it to refer to design changes that would appear in a future Syntax draft 15:27:25 ... we can keep the notion of "RDFa core attributes" as a concept only, so long as the Syntax document is referring to HTML+RDFa 15:28:47 Ben: Syntax and XHTML Modularization needs to be Rec-track. Do we need to decide today whether they are a single document or two? 15:28:51 zakim, mute me 15:28:51 Steven should now be muted 15:28:57 Mark: let's just create Syntax as RDFa+HTML 15:29:02 ack me 15:29:05 ... later we could split out "core" attributes if we wish 15:29:18 Ralph: yes, please, let's focus on [X]HTML 15:29:54 Ben: so Syntax document should be a single document with RDFa and HTML? 15:30:22 Shane: my concern is that we'll duplicate content between the specification of the language and the syntax document 15:30:33 ... to my mind, a syntax document is a set of processing rules 15:31:00 Mark: if there was a section of processing rules at the beginning of a document describing RDFa in the context of HTML, is that OK? 15:31:15 ... we know we could always extract that section into another document later 15:31:41 Shane: there are other documents we haven't talked about; e.g. XHTML+RDFa -- an existing specification of modules 15:31:59 ... [the modularization document] should refer to the syntax document 15:32:17 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-rdfa-20070417/ 15:32:38 Mark: instead of a generic RDFa document plus a separate RDFa+HTML+modularization document, we just merge everything into one document 15:33:03 ... one document with 2 appendices; a DTD appendix and a Modularization appendix 15:33:21 Ben: I'll document this to the SWD WG list and this Task Force list 15:37:03 ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] 15:37:06 -- continues 15:37:17 Ben: Michael has started this, however 15:37:36 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/RDFCoverage RDF features covered by RDFa 15:37:45 ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] 15:37:46 -- continues 15:39:11 Mark: I previously mentioned a meeting at XTech between Mark, Elias, me, and some Joost folk 15:39:29 ... we feel we've settled XMLliteral with them 15:40:10 Ben: I'm hoping to get Elias to write some documentation for operator RDFa 15:40:18 ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] 15:40:20 -- continues 15:40:29 ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] 15:40:31 -- continues 15:40:48 [DONE] ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] 15:41:04 Mark: I'm proposing to treat this specifically for IMG 15:41:26 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jun/0085.html [Proposal] ISSUE-42: How does RDFa deal with @src [Mark 2007-06-21] 15:41:39 ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] 15:41:42 -- continues 15:41:55 Mark: this is very difficult. I will post what I have thus far but it might not be resolvable 15:42:03 ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:42:06 -- continues 15:42:10 ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] 15:42:19 -- continues 15:42:30 Steven: I've done it to some extent, but periodically update it 15:42:35 ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:42:38 -- continues 15:43:31 Topic: ISSUE-1: Reification 15:43:45 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/1 ISSUE-1 15:43:55 Ben: I believe the outstanding proposal is highly outdated 15:44:11 ... given the current trend, it sounds to me like we should not support reification 15:45:21 ... is this easy to resolve now? If not, we'll leave it to another meeting for more discussion 15:46:20 Ben: I will propose to POSTPONE this issue 15:46:43 ... i.e. not in version 1, possibly to be revisited for a future version 15:46:55 Topic: ISSUE-3: Role Attribute for rdf:type 15:47:05 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/3 ISSUE-3 15:48:10 Ben: on the principle of not changing current WD too much, I suggest we stick with what's in the WD now 15:48:31 Mark, Steven: ok 15:48:46 Topic: ISSUE-6: lang attribute 15:48:54 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/6 ISSUE-6 15:49:06 Ben: this concerns details of how xml:lang is inherited, etc. 15:49:14 ... I will schedule this for a future meeting 15:49:28 Topic: @RESOURCE and @HREF 15:49:48 Mark: I was getting the sense that the mail discussion felt this would lead us out of a trap 15:49:57 ... I particularly like that it is clear there's a different attribute 15:50:19 ... and that this would support having an object anywhere in the document 15:50:34 Steven: I'm still not happy about this one; I find it a complication 15:51:29 Ben: I may have to revisit my own position, as yesterday I noticed a use of @HREF on SPAN in Creative Commons, so people may not be as uncomfortable with HREF other places as I thought 15:52:28 Mark: while I still don't agree that @HREF everywhere is confusing, as I looked into this more I decided that we should define a set of core attributes that always have the same meaning 15:52:37 ... the host language can layer additional semantics on top 15:53:01 ... so @HREF may add navigation semantics on top of @RESOURCE 15:53:21 ... and we'd still like to be able to refer to non-navigable [objects] 15:54:18 Shane: I've been persuaded by Mark's argument plus another one regarding evolution of the language 15:54:59 ... if clicking an element today does nothing even though it has @HREF but in the future things change so the same document is interpreted differently, [that would be a problem] 15:55:25 Steven: I have a problem encoding within a document that a reference is non-navigable. Later if you want it to be navigable you have to change the document 15:56:17 Mark: the Joost use case is interesting; they use @HREF and @ABOUT and don't expect navigation; they'd have to use ID to get navigation 15:56:33 Ben: do they use @HREF on A or on something else? 15:56:41 Mark: @HREF on LINK 15:57:29 Ben: could you discuss the @HREF, @RESOURCE question with them again, please? 15:57:46 ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere 15:58:20 Mark: RDF makes a distinction between resources and information resources; @HREF doesn't permit that distinction 15:58:34 ... @HREF means "navigable link" in HTML 15:58:56 Steven: it's only RDF that adds the interpretation that links don't have to be navigable 15:59:42 Mark: in a pre-RDFa world the difference doesn't occur; you use @HREF to indicate navigation and you use RDF/XML for everything else 16:00:22 ... @RESOURCE has simple semantics and @HREF adds navigation to those semantics 16:01:04 ACTION: Ben get further input from Creative Commons on @RESOURCE and @HREF 16:02:01 Topic: schedule 16:02:12 Ben: we're slipping today's deadline on test cases 16:02:21 ... July 12 to resolve issues 16:02:45 ... I'll push a lot of these issues in email 16:02:55 next meeting: 28 June 16:02:58 -Steven 16:02:59 -ShaneM 16:03:00 -Mark 16:03:00 [adjourned] 16:03:03 -Ben_Adida 16:03:05 -Ralph 16:03:06 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:03:08 Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, ShaneM, Mark 16:03:10 thanks Ralph for scribing :) 16:03:15 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:03:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS 16:03:43 zakim, bye 16:03:43 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:04:19 rrsagent, bye 16:04:19 I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:04:19 ACTION: Ben to add @RESOURCE and @HREF to his task list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [1] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-08-26 16:04:19 ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [2] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-08-59 16:04:19 ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [3] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-12-28 16:04:19 ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [4] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-37-03 16:04:19 ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [5] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-37-45 16:04:19 ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [6] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-40-18 16:04:19 ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [7] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-40-29 16:04:19 ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [8] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-41-39 16:04:19 ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [9] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-42-03 16:04:19 ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [10] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-42-10 16:04:19 ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [11] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-42-35 16:04:19 ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [12] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-57-46 16:04:19 ACTION: Ben get further input from Creative Commons on @RESOURCE and @HREF [13] 16:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T16-01-04