IRC log of rdfa on 2007-06-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:59:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc
14:59:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:59:20 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDFa Task Force
14:59:27 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:59:27 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:01:25 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jun/0074.html
15:01:30 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:01:49 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-06-14
15:02:06 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:02:13 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:02:14 [markbirbeck]
be right along.....
15:04:10 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:04:10 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:11 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:05:47 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:05:49 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
15:05:51 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
15:05:54 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:06:05 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
15:06:17 [benadida]
zakim, pick a victim
15:06:17 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Adida
15:06:24 [benadida]
zakim, pick a victim
15:06:24 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph
15:06:33 [RalphS]
Scribe: Ralph
15:07:02 [RalphS]
Regrets: Michael
15:07:42 [RalphS]
Topic: Action Items
15:08:26 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to add @RESOURCE and @HREF to his task list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
15:08:41 [RalphS]
-- done
15:08:52 [RalphS]
Ben: that action was to remind me to put those back on today's agenda
15:08:54 [Zakim]
+??P17
15:08:59 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:09:07 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p17 is Mark
15:09:07 [Zakim]
+Mark; got it
15:11:19 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:11:26 [RalphS]
Ben: I'm still gathering information
15:11:37 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to take care of issues 2, 5, 25,28, 29 via list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
15:12:28 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:13:08 [RalphS]
http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action02
15:14:07 [RalphS]
http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#item03
15:15:42 [RalphS]
Ben: we have Primer, Syntax, Use Cases, and Test Cases
15:15:58 [Steven]
q+
15:16:12 [RalphS]
... Primer is in pretty good shape, Syntax has to be in shape in 4 to 6 weeks
15:16:40 [RalphS]
Steven: Shane would like the Syntax document integrated with the XHTML2 WG publication system
15:17:02 [RalphS]
... but that means dropping xmlspec
15:17:03 [RalphS]
Ben: we agreed that we would like to enlist Shane
15:17:15 [RalphS]
... so OK to move source to XHTML
15:17:48 [RalphS]
... Shane said there wouldn't be much of the XHTML2 pubs syntax I need to learn for RDFa
15:18:48 [RalphS]
Steven: I feel that only normative text should be Rec-track
15:19:09 [RalphS]
... I don't see the added value to put a primer through Rec
15:19:35 [RalphS]
... test cases can be part of a package with syntax; during CR the test cases are used
15:19:44 [RalphS]
... but the test suite does not need to be Rec
15:20:02 [RalphS]
... CR package is the Syntax document supported by the test cases
15:20:34 [RalphS]
... in particular, test cases don't go in www.w3.org/TR because we want to be able to update them without going through a whole publication cycle
15:20:45 [RalphS]
... only the [Syntax] specification goes in /TR
15:20:58 [RalphS]
Mark: that applies to DTDs and schemas as well
15:21:00 [RalphS]
Steven: yes
15:21:49 [RalphS]
Mark: Ivan commented that CURIE spec was "nothing but a note"
15:21:57 [RalphS]
Steven: I think CURIE should be Rec-track
15:22:08 [RalphS]
Shane: Ivan was wrong -- CURIE is a Working Draft
15:25:08 [RalphS]
Ralph: historically, we've put our most up-to-date decisions about design into the Primer
15:25:25 [RalphS]
... if we're deciding here that all normative text is only in the Syntax document, then I'm happy
15:25:49 [RalphS]
Mark: if we keep the Primer as Note then we can update it more easily
15:26:25 [RalphS]
... and could update it to refer to design changes that would appear in a future Syntax draft
15:27:25 [RalphS]
... we can keep the notion of "RDFa core attributes" as a concept only, so long as the Syntax document is referring to HTML+RDFa
15:28:47 [RalphS]
Ben: Syntax and XHTML Modularization needs to be Rec-track. Do we need to decide today whether they are a single document or two?
15:28:51 [Steven]
zakim, mute me
15:28:51 [Zakim]
Steven should now be muted
15:28:57 [RalphS]
Mark: let's just create Syntax as RDFa+HTML
15:29:02 [Steven]
ack me
15:29:05 [RalphS]
... later we could split out "core" attributes if we wish
15:29:18 [RalphS]
Ralph: yes, please, let's focus on [X]HTML
15:29:54 [RalphS]
Ben: so Syntax document should be a single document with RDFa and HTML?
15:30:22 [RalphS]
Shane: my concern is that we'll duplicate content between the specification of the language and the syntax document
15:30:33 [RalphS]
... to my mind, a syntax document is a set of processing rules
15:31:00 [RalphS]
Mark: if there was a section of processing rules at the beginning of a document describing RDFa in the context of HTML, is that OK?
15:31:15 [RalphS]
... we know we could always extract that section into another document later
15:31:41 [RalphS]
Shane: there are other documents we haven't talked about; e.g. XHTML+RDFa -- an existing specification of modules
15:31:59 [RalphS]
... [the modularization document] should refer to the syntax document
15:32:17 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-rdfa-20070417/
15:32:38 [RalphS]
Mark: instead of a generic RDFa document plus a separate RDFa+HTML+modularization document, we just merge everything into one document
15:33:03 [RalphS]
... one document with 2 appendices; a DTD appendix and a Modularization appendix
15:33:21 [RalphS]
Ben: I'll document this to the SWD WG list and this Task Force list
15:37:03 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:37:06 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:37:17 [RalphS]
Ben: Michael has started this, however
15:37:36 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/RDFCoverage RDF features covered by RDFa
15:37:45 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:37:46 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:39:11 [RalphS]
Mark: I previously mentioned a meeting at XTech between Mark, Elias, me, and some Joost folk
15:39:29 [RalphS]
... we feel we've settled XMLliteral with them
15:40:10 [RalphS]
Ben: I'm hoping to get Elias to write some documentation for operator RDFa
15:40:18 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:40:20 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:40:29 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
15:40:31 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:40:48 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
15:41:04 [RalphS]
Mark: I'm proposing to treat this specifically for IMG
15:41:26 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jun/0085.html [Proposal] ISSUE-42: How does RDFa deal with @src [Mark 2007-06-21]
15:41:39 [RalphS]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
15:41:42 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:41:55 [RalphS]
Mark: this is very difficult. I will post what I have thus far but it might not be resolvable
15:42:03 [RalphS]
ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:42:06 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:42:10 [RalphS]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
15:42:19 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:42:30 [RalphS]
Steven: I've done it to some extent, but periodically update it
15:42:35 [RalphS]
ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:42:38 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:43:31 [RalphS]
Topic: ISSUE-1: Reification
15:43:45 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/1 ISSUE-1
15:43:55 [RalphS]
Ben: I believe the outstanding proposal is highly outdated
15:44:11 [RalphS]
... given the current trend, it sounds to me like we should not support reification
15:45:21 [RalphS]
... is this easy to resolve now? If not, we'll leave it to another meeting for more discussion
15:46:20 [RalphS]
Ben: I will propose to POSTPONE this issue
15:46:43 [RalphS]
... i.e. not in version 1, possibly to be revisited for a future version
15:46:55 [RalphS]
Topic: ISSUE-3: Role Attribute for rdf:type
15:47:05 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/3 ISSUE-3
15:48:10 [RalphS]
Ben: on the principle of not changing current WD too much, I suggest we stick with what's in the WD now
15:48:31 [RalphS]
Mark, Steven: ok
15:48:46 [RalphS]
Topic: ISSUE-6: lang attribute
15:48:54 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/6 ISSUE-6
15:49:06 [RalphS]
Ben: this concerns details of how xml:lang is inherited, etc.
15:49:14 [RalphS]
... I will schedule this for a future meeting
15:49:28 [RalphS]
Topic: @RESOURCE and @HREF
15:49:48 [RalphS]
Mark: I was getting the sense that the mail discussion felt this would lead us out of a trap
15:49:57 [RalphS]
... I particularly like that it is clear there's a different attribute
15:50:19 [RalphS]
... and that this would support having an object anywhere in the document
15:50:34 [RalphS]
Steven: I'm still not happy about this one; I find it a complication
15:51:29 [RalphS]
Ben: I may have to revisit my own position, as yesterday I noticed a use of @HREF on SPAN in Creative Commons, so people may not be as uncomfortable with HREF other places as I thought
15:52:28 [RalphS]
Mark: while I still don't agree that @HREF everywhere is confusing, as I looked into this more I decided that we should define a set of core attributes that always have the same meaning
15:52:37 [RalphS]
... the host language can layer additional semantics on top
15:53:01 [RalphS]
... so @HREF may add navigation semantics on top of @RESOURCE
15:53:21 [RalphS]
... and we'd still like to be able to refer to non-navigable [objects]
15:54:18 [RalphS]
Shane: I've been persuaded by Mark's argument plus another one regarding evolution of the language
15:54:59 [RalphS]
... if clicking an element today does nothing even though it has @HREF but in the future things change so the same document is interpreted differently, [that would be a problem]
15:55:25 [RalphS]
Steven: I have a problem encoding within a document that a reference is non-navigable. Later if you want it to be navigable you have to change the document
15:56:17 [RalphS]
Mark: the Joost use case is interesting; they use @HREF and @ABOUT and don't expect navigation; they'd have to use ID to get navigation
15:56:33 [RalphS]
Ben: do they use @HREF on A or on something else?
15:56:41 [RalphS]
Mark: @HREF on LINK
15:57:29 [RalphS]
Ben: could you discuss the @HREF, @RESOURCE question with them again, please?
15:57:46 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere
15:58:20 [RalphS]
Mark: RDF makes a distinction between resources and information resources; @HREF doesn't permit that distinction
15:58:34 [RalphS]
... @HREF means "navigable link" in HTML
15:58:56 [RalphS]
Steven: it's only RDF that adds the interpretation that links don't have to be navigable
15:59:42 [RalphS]
Mark: in a pre-RDFa world the difference doesn't occur; you use @HREF to indicate navigation and you use RDF/XML for everything else
16:00:22 [RalphS]
... @RESOURCE has simple semantics and @HREF adds navigation to those semantics
16:01:04 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben get further input from Creative Commons on @RESOURCE and @HREF
16:02:01 [RalphS]
Topic: schedule
16:02:12 [RalphS]
Ben: we're slipping today's deadline on test cases
16:02:21 [RalphS]
... July 12 to resolve issues
16:02:45 [RalphS]
... I'll push a lot of these issues in email
16:02:55 [RalphS]
next meeting: 28 June
16:02:58 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:02:59 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
16:03:00 [Zakim]
-Mark
16:03:00 [RalphS]
[adjourned]
16:03:03 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
16:03:05 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:03:06 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:03:08 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, ShaneM, Mark
16:03:10 [benadida]
thanks Ralph for scribing :)
16:03:15 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:03:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:03:43 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
16:03:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:04:19 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to add @RESOURCE and @HREF to his task list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [1]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-08-26
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [2]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-08-59
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [3]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-12-28
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [4]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-37-03
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [5]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-37-45
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [6]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-40-18
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [7]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-40-29
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [8]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-41-39
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [9]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-42-03
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [10]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-42-10
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [11]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-42-35
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [12]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T15-57-46
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben get further input from Creative Commons on @RESOURCE and @HREF [13]
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-irc#T16-01-04