IRC log of swd on 2007-06-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:52 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:54:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-irc
14:54:57 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
14:54:57 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-irc#T14-54-57
14:55:04 [TomB]
zakim, this will be swd
14:55:04 [Zakim]
ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
14:55:08 [TomB]
Meeting: SWD WG
14:55:11 [TomB]
Chair: Guus
14:55:40 [TomB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0031.html
14:56:50 [TomB]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html
14:57:14 [TomB]
Regrets: Daniel, Jon, Ben
14:57:25 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:58:14 [TomB]
edsu, hi!
14:58:19 [edsu]
TomB: hey :)
14:58:29 [edsu]
how're things?
14:58:30 [seanb]
seanb has joined #swd
14:59:04 [TomB]
thunderstorm here - a nice break
14:59:19 [Zakim]
+Justin
14:59:44 [Bern]
Bern has joined #swd
14:59:54 [TomB]
zakim, justin is really edsu
14:59:54 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
15:00:11 [Antoine]
Antoine has joined #swd
15:00:13 [Zakim]
+Bernard
15:00:28 [RalphS]
RalphS has joined #swd
15:00:45 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:01:03 [TomB]
zakim, ??p22 is seanb
15:01:09 [Zakim]
+seanb; got it
15:01:20 [TomB]
Scribe: Sean
15:01:26 [TomB]
Scribenick: seanb
15:01:29 [Zakim]
+edsu.a
15:01:37 [guus]
guus has joined #swd
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+Guus
15:01:49 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:02:00 [TomB]
zakim, edsu.a is really clay
15:02:00 [Zakim]
+clay; got it
15:02:13 [Elisa]
Elisa has joined #swd
15:02:15 [guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P5, edsu, Bernard, seanb, clay, Guus, Ralph
15:02:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Elisa, guus, RalphS, Antoine, Bern, seanb, RRSAgent, Zakim, edsu, TomB
15:02:46 [Clay]
Clay has joined #swd
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+Antoine_Isaac
15:03:03 [Zakim]
+clay.a
15:03:19 [Zakim]
+Elisa_Kendall
15:03:28 [guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:33 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
15:03:34 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
15:03:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P5, edsu, Bernard, seanb, clay, Guus, Ralph, Antoine_Isaac, clay.a, Elisa_Kendall
15:03:57 [guus]
zakim, ??P5 is TomB
15:03:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see aliman, berrueta, Clay, Elisa, guus, RalphS, Antoine, Bern, seanb, RRSAgent, Zakim, edsu, TomB
15:04:03 [TomB]
zakim, clay.a is really justin
15:04:07 [Zakim]
+TomB; got it
15:04:15 [Zakim]
+justin; got it
15:04:43 [Zakim]
+abel_rionda
15:04:48 [berrueta]
zakim, abel_rionda is me
15:04:54 [Zakim]
+berrueta; got it
15:04:56 [Zakim]
+??P48
15:05:08 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p48 is Alistair
15:05:18 [Zakim]
+Alistair; got it
15:05:37 [seanb]
Topic: Admin
15:06:07 [seanb]
TomB: Welcome to new members
15:06:17 [seanb]
Justin: US library of congress.
15:06:24 [RalphS]
Justin Thorp
15:06:34 [seanb]
... research into emerging web technologies. incorporatio into web strategies
15:06:51 [RalphS]
Clay Redding
15:06:53 [seanb]
Clay: Also US LoC. Library Services department.
15:07:09 [seanb]
... XML background. Office handles vocabs/code lists, so a natural fit
15:07:34 [seanb]
TomB: Describing f2f procedure.
15:08:04 [seanb]
s/f2f/telecon
15:08:23 [seanb]
Guus: Proposed accept miuntues of 5th June.
15:08:57 [seanb]
...all action items there.
15:09:14 [seanb]
...no objections
15:09:45 [seanb]
Guus: Possible telecons cancelled in first two weeks of August
15:10:09 [seanb]
TomB: Already added this to scribing document (duty/on deck).
15:10:19 [seanb]
... shows which telecons will be cancelled.
15:10:39 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/ScribeDuty
15:10:43 [edsu]
LC is typical here i would say
15:10:50 [RalphS]
ok, Ed
15:11:24 [seanb]
Guus: Face to Face meeting
15:11:31 [seanb]
...plan to have f2f in fall
15:11:41 [seanb]
...look at results so far.
15:11:53 [seanb]
Tomb: first option W3C Tech plenary week.
15:12:07 [seanb]
... summarising results of poll
15:12:46 [seanb]
...looks like tech plenary is better but Daniel and Guus can't make that
15:13:05 [seanb]
...might be able to get a small meeting of six people or so if half the maybes turn up
15:13:11 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/results current f2f2 poll results
15:13:25 [seanb]
...but if all came for tech plenary week could be 12.
15:13:33 [seanb]
Guus: Could we split subjects?
15:13:45 [RalphS]
q+
15:13:46 [seanb]
... e.g. RDfa in Boston, SKOS in Korea?
15:14:20 [seanb]
...might be piossible to have small SKOS meeting in Korea based on
15:14:24 [seanb]
...responses to far.
15:14:32 [seanb]
Guus: All options suboptimal.
15:14:43 [seanb]
... Guus and Tom to consider and makle a proposal
15:14:47 [seanb]
Topic: SKOS
15:14:58 [seanb]
ACTION: Ralph to update SKOS pages to point to UCR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:15:03 [seanb]
--continues
15:15:26 [seanb]
ACTION: Alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action03]
15:15:32 [seanb]
--continues
15:15:43 [seanb]
ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:15:46 [seanb]
--continues
15:15:55 [seanb]
ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:15:57 [seanb]
--continues
15:16:17 [seanb]
ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:16:20 [seanb]
--continues
15:16:35 [seanb]
Antoine: Do Jon and Alistair need help on this? Could contribute an hour
15:16:40 [seanb]
Alistair: Yes please!
15:17:17 [seanb]
Antoine: Wording issues. Some issues have different names in sandbox and requirements list
15:17:45 [seanb]
Alistair: Didn't juyst transfer issues verbaitim. Tried to do some editing
15:17:58 [seanb]
... and choose names that were clearer, Is this an issue?
15:18:05 [seanb]
... did't think about matching req document.
15:18:14 [seanb]
Guus: Antoine take the token.
15:18:22 [seanb]
AListair: happy for Antoine to do what he sees fit.
15:18:32 [seanb]
ACTION: Guus to include a reference to the original requirements in the resolution proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:18:39 [seanb]
--done
15:18:48 [seanb]
ACTION: Guus to point to typical responses that follow guidelines described in telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action02]
15:19:08 [guus]
DONE http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0033.html
15:19:09 [seanb]
--done
15:19:52 [seanb]
ACTION: Guus to rephrase current proposal, slightly revise naming based on comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action07]
15:19:55 [seanb]
--done
15:19:59 [Bern]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/RelationshipsBetweenLabels/ProposalThree
15:20:54 [seanb]
Guus: Added discussion note.
15:21:22 [seanb]
... discussions between antoine/daniel
15:21:34 [seanb]
... terms are words used to refer to skos concepts
15:21:52 [seanb]
...if you use that then people might think sklos:term is what one defines broader/narrower on
15:22:13 [seanb]
...maybe not an ideal term, but alternatives are worse. Label is confusing, LabelResource too
15:22:29 [seanb]
....complex, word confuses focus. Guus strong preference for skos:Term
15:22:50 [seanb]
Bernard: WHy is lable confusing? The whole discussion is confusing
15:23:05 [seanb]
Guus: Label comes from RDF terminology. Every resource/UYRI can have a
15:23:28 [seanb]
...label. Original SKOS had a subproperty of rdsf:label. Now two ways of
15:23:33 [RalphS]
s/UYRI/URI/
15:23:46 [seanb]
...defining the terms that you want to refere to a concets. Either a label (literal). Or as a
15:24:13 [aliman]
q+ to ask what the relationship is between a "term" and a "language"
15:24:23 [seanb]
...URI that links to other URIs. prefLabel will then link to a literal rather than a label. SO confusing.
15:24:37 [seanb]
...Normal in thesauri terms to talk about terms as being items that are used to refer
15:24:45 [seanb]
...to a notion in a vocabulary
15:24:51 [RalphS]
q+
15:25:02 [seanb]
Bernard: Problem is that we're tryng to address many audiences with different preconceptions
15:25:03 [aliman]
+1 on what bernard said
15:25:15 [seanb]
Guus: Can the LC people take a look and advise?
15:25:28 [seanb]
Ed: Spent some time reviewing proposal, getting up to speed.
15:25:49 [seanb]
... glossary is referenced (willpower). In there ideas like concept and term aredefined
15:26:13 [seanb]
...seemed pretty clear what they meant. In general, want a miminal fix approach.
15:26:38 [seanb]
...doumentation properties can have three different values literal, resource description or uri
15:26:52 [seanb]
...why can't we use that?
15:27:15 [seanb]
Guus: Original proposal was to remove a constraint and make spec smaller. Main problem is
15:27:43 [seanb]
... introducing confusion. Tools need to be on the lookout. To visualise a concept need to be aware if it's
15:27:48 [aliman]
q+ to remark on possibility of using SKOS "extensions" namespace
15:28:03 [seanb]
...pointing to a literal or a resource. Second issue is OWL. Won't be able to work with
15:28:20 [seanb]
... this as OWL required stricty separation of object/data properties. Hence simple extension
15:28:47 [seanb]
...proposal. Minmal extra thing to ghandle the OWL issue. If you use prefLabel it's a literla. If
15:28:53 [seanb]
...prefTerm it's a resource.
15:29:19 [seanb]
Ed: Acronym example does a good job of describing why terms as resoruces would be useful.
15:29:32 [seanb]
...What's the use case where this came up? WHo asked for what functionality?
15:30:15 [seanb]
Guus: Top of document. Link to candidate requirements and use cases
15:30:25 [seanb]
Antopine: Anchors for each requirement are there.
15:30:29 [aliman]
q+ to comment on motivation for relationships between labels
15:30:59 [seanb]
Guus: Main questino was whether the distinction between concept and term is confusing?
15:31:40 [seanb]
Ed: Antoine questioning the use of concept in SKOS? Thesauri don't really have concepts. Is that right?
15:31:58 [seanb]
Antoine: Not questioning the way that it's done. Agree with this. Issue is that duruing discussion with
15:32:14 [seanb]
...Daniel there's ambigutiy between term based and concept based approach. Would agreee with
15:32:25 [seanb]
...current stance of SKOS.
15:32:47 [seanb]
Ed: unrealted to this tracking discussion on general SW list . URIs for things that aren't resources.
15:32:48 [aliman]
maybe we should deal with the semantics of skos:Concept first?
15:33:14 [seanb]
...Idea of addressing concepts is subtle. Core guide referes to indirectin. Some helpful text about
15:33:40 [seanb]
...Henry VIII. Henry VIII as SKOS coceopts is different from Henry VIII as SKOS concept
15:34:02 [seanb]
...If it's just terms that don't have to map to concepts then it would maybe be easier.
15:34:28 [seanb]
Guus: Point referred to is a broader issue. Goes to the root of concept-based representaiton in SKOS
15:34:45 [seanb]
...WOuld be unwilling to open that door unles there are compeilliong reasons.
15:34:50 [seanb]
Ed: No, that's fine.
15:35:14 [seanb]
Guus: Want to start closing issues. Interested in Alistair's opinion
15:35:34 [seanb]
Alistair: Favourite position on this is a move towards original n-ary relations pattern.
15:35:57 [seanb]
...Origial proposal my alistair a little contrived. Want miminal solution. Nice now that the
15:36:19 [seanb]
...extgension propoisal is detailed, can figure out the detailed consquences, e.g. various entailments
15:36:42 [seanb]
...that would follow. Would like to see alternative proposals presented so that options can be compared
15:36:45 [Bern]
s/Origial/Original
15:37:02 [seanb]
...side by side. As a solution, concerned that simple extension has consequences that are hard
15:37:06 [seanb]
...to fathom.
15:37:09 [seanb]
Guus: What are those?
15:37:28 [seanb]
Ali: In the example, theres a term with labels in two languages. What dfoes it mean for a term to
15:38:01 [seanb]
...be labelled in two languages. Isn;t a term embedded in a language?
15:38:12 [seanb]
...Could end up with different patterns of use.
15:38:38 [seanb]
Guus: One resolution is to restrict label property to cardinaloty 1.
15:38:58 [seanb]
Ali: But then what about transliteration or character sets? More than one way to write down a term
15:39:02 [seanb]
...in a language.
15:39:15 [seanb]
Guus: Same issue in current SKOS with mutliple labels.
15:39:54 [seanb]
Antoine: Support Alistairs proposal for on rdfslabel per term. Multple wrding is
15:40:11 [seanb]
...a situation where you have mutlple terms each with its label, and relationships between the,
15:40:33 [seanb]
Alistair: Commenting on Ed's question re. use cases. Most compelling use cases
15:41:04 [seanb]
... are mutlilingulaity. E.g. Japanese and making links between different character sets.
15:41:10 [seanb]
...Most iportant motiviation
15:41:44 [seanb]
Guus: Keen to close. Propose action on Guus to update w.r.t. Alistair's issues. If you
15:42:06 [seanb]
...want a proposal there, need to present it
15:42:17 [seanb]
Alistair: It's a difficult issue.
15:42:37 [seanb]
Guus: If we resolve an issue and there are tehcnical problems, we can reopen
15:43:05 [seanb]
Alistair: Other issues might be lower hanging fruit.
15:43:13 [seanb]
...trying to find time to do this.
15:43:28 [seanb]
Guus: Need to tackle the hard issues.
15:43:54 [seanb]
Alistair: When SKOS originally set up. Three namespaces. SKOS, Mappings and Extensions
15:44:20 [seanb]
...Extensions never stabilised. To more forward, maybe have proposals in an extensions namespace
15:44:32 [seanb]
...that's pbulsihed as a note, otuside normative recommendation
15:44:55 [seanb]
Guus: Experience of dialects not always positive. Could put everything into an
15:45:07 [seanb]
...extensions space and then decide on status later.
15:45:35 [seanb]
... Two things. 1/ using extensions space for working things out
15:45:42 [seanb]
...2/ what is normative.
15:45:54 [seanb]
...Could decide everyhting in the extensions space is normative.
15:46:14 [seanb]
Alistair: Another issue. Example that arises whn modeliing terms. Simple extyension proposal
15:46:30 [seanb]
...prefTerm is functional. So can only be one.
15:46:46 [Zakim]
-clay
15:46:58 [seanb]
...what happens to entities in an open world? People have always modelled vocabs
15:47:22 [seanb]
...as data structures within defined boundaries. What if someone comes along and assertes identity
15:47:40 [seanb]
...between two terms?
15:47:44 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:48:07 [RalphS]
zakim, LC is probably Clay
15:48:07 [Zakim]
+Clay?; got it
15:48:14 [seanb]
ACTION: Guus to update proposal with issue of single vs. multiple labels for terms
15:48:15 [Clay]
yes
15:48:30 [seanb]
ACTION: Alistair to provide details of alternative proposal
15:49:15 [seanb]
ACTION: Antoine to put SimpleExtensionProposal into wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action08]
15:49:17 [seanb]
--done
15:49:24 [TomB]
aliman, where is the extension namespace documented?
15:49:51 [seanb]
Guus: Would like to leave SKOS concepts and ontology classes for now
15:50:03 [seanb]
...Grouping construct no progress. But no actions
15:50:04 [aliman]
-> http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/extensions/spec/ SKOS extensions specification
15:50:07 [seanb]
...WHo owns the issue?
15:50:24 [seanb]
Alistair: Still action on me to propose minimal fix
15:51:05 [seanb]
ACTION: Alistair to propose resolution for Issue-33 (minimal fix)
15:51:12 [TomB]
aliman - thank you!
15:51:43 [seanb]
Guus: Report on SKOS validator. Messages from Antoine and AListair
15:52:01 [seanb]
Antoine: Recently converted vocab to SKOS.
15:52:07 [Zakim]
-Bernard
15:52:19 [aliman]
-> http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/validation SKOS validation service (alpha)
15:52:24 [seanb]
...used tool for vocab validation. Went ok.
15:52:42 [seanb]
...devoted to current version. Might have to be adapted, but it's useful.
15:53:07 [seanb]
Alistair: interesting thing about validation service is that it bears on how
15:53:30 [seanb]
...how we define broader/narrower/related. Service looks for circulairyt. Assumes that
15:53:45 [RalphS]
[I will try to remember to write my comments about naming into email -- I wanted to say that given a choice between choosing terminology that may confuse RDF/OWK folk and terminology that is confusing to the expected SKOS community, I'd make the RDF/OWL folk work harder; we're accustomed to the idea of terminology namespaces already.]
15:53:52 [seanb]
...circularity is non-sensical. SHould that be embedded in semantics?
15:54:23 [seanb]
...Also not just cycles, but overlap, e.g. if there are multiple paths in the hierarchy.
15:54:43 [seanb]
Guus: OWL Validator. Gives errors and warnings
15:55:08 [seanb]
Alistair: Yes. Errors and warnings. Currently set up for cycles -> errors
15:55:25 [RalphS]
Sean: the question is really what is considered to be an error and what is considered a warning
15:55:33 [RalphS]
... are multiple pathways an error?
15:55:56 [seanb]
Guus: SKOS validator can act as a tool for candidate req stage later.
15:56:06 [seanb]
...would be useful to look for other tools to support skos.
15:56:17 [aliman]
q+ to mention two implementations
15:56:26 [RalphS]
Sean: do we have a reasonable definition of "a tool that supports SKOS"?
15:56:45 [seanb]
Alistair: Paper for DC conference last year. Defined three types of tools
15:56:52 [seanb]
... vocab development
15:57:06 [seanb]
... indexing applications. Read vocab allow tagging
15:57:23 [seanb]
...retrieval applciations. Use the structure and the idnex/metadata. Support browse/search
15:57:42 [seanb]
... Three classes of application. Look at requirements document. USe cases go outside of that
15:57:45 [seanb]
...scope.
15:57:57 [RalphS]
[I note that some attempt to define what it means to "support SKOS" will be very useful when the WG gets to proposing exit criteria for Candidate Recommendation]
15:58:14 [RalphS]
Sean: we should be clear about what we think implementation will be
15:58:21 [RalphS]
... is bound up in test cases too
15:58:41 [RalphS]
... a set of concrete test cases could define what it means to support SKOS
15:59:03 [aliman]
SKOS implementations of vocabulary development applications: ThManager and the NSDL Metadata Registry
15:59:15 [seanb]
Topic: Recipes
15:59:23 [seanb]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:59:29 [seanb]
--continues
15:59:43 [seanb]
Topic: Vocabulary Management
15:59:57 [TomB]
q+
16:00:11 [seanb]
Elisa: Possibility to take topics one by one
16:00:36 [seanb]
...if we have enough bandwidth on call, take opinion on issues.
16:00:41 [aliman]
-> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/public/skos/press/dc2006/camera-ready-paper.pdf SKOS: Requirements for standardisation (paper for DC2006 which talks about classes of application using SKOS) see also presentation: http://dc2006.ucol.mx/papers/miercoles/10.30/presentation.pdf
16:00:49 [seanb]
...Keep it tight and make reference to things that people are doing.
16:01:04 [edsu]
aliman: thanks
16:01:11 [seanb]
... get people to write one or two sentences. Which topics to cover in each section
16:01:17 [seanb]
...Perhaps one section per call.
16:01:29 [seanb]
Guus: Happy to put that on the agenda for next week.
16:01:41 [seanb]
Elisa: First section. Named terms using URI referencec
16:01:49 [seanb]
Guus: Link?
16:01:58 [seanb]
Elisa: yes in the agenda
16:02:30 [seanb]
TomB: Given resource constraints , only realistic thing is to
16:02:41 [seanb]
...try and finish it in a form close to the current one.
16:02:50 [RalphS]
Elisa: see "Name Terms using URI References" in -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/VocabMgtDraft Vocab Wiki draft
16:02:52 [seanb]
...five high level points in a page or so each.
16:03:12 [seanb]
...would still take an awful lot of work. Diuscussion with Elisa, would be doable to
16:03:31 [seanb]
...do a high level note, but requires real resource. E.g. SW list discussing exactly this problem
16:04:00 [seanb]
Guus: We are out of time. Let's take this up next week.
16:04:23 [seanb]
...Ben not here, we'll ask for an update next week.
16:04:34 [seanb]
[adjourned]
16:04:36 [Zakim]
-justin
16:04:37 [Zakim]
-Elisa_Kendall
16:04:40 [Zakim]
-Alistair
16:04:41 [Zakim]
-edsu
16:04:43 [Zakim]
-Clay?
16:04:44 [Zakim]
-Antoine_Isaac
16:04:45 [Zakim]
-berrueta
16:05:05 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:05:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB, seanb, Guus, Ralph
16:05:16 [RalphS]
zakim, list participants
16:05:16 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been edsu, Bernard, seanb, Guus, Ralph, clay, Antoine_Isaac, Elisa_Kendall, TomB, justin, berrueta, Alistair, Clay?
16:05:41 [Zakim]
-Guus
16:05:51 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:05:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB, seanb, Ralph
16:05:55 [seanb]
rssagent, please draft minutes
16:06:12 [seanb]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:06:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html seanb
16:06:19 [Zakim]
-seanb
16:06:22 [edsu]
edsu has left #swd
16:06:33 [Zakim]
-TomB
16:06:35 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:07:13 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:07:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were edsu, Bernard, seanb, Guus, Ralph, clay, Antoine_Isaac, Elisa_Kendall, TomB, justin, berrueta, Alistair, Clay?
16:18:47 [Antoine]
Antoine has left #swd
16:45:30 [seanb]
seanb has left #swd
18:26:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd