14:54:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:54:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-irc
14:54:57 <TomB> rrsagent, bookmark
14:54:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-irc#T14-54-57
14:55:04 <TomB> zakim, this will be swd
14:55:04 <Zakim> ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
14:55:08 <TomB> Meeting: SWD WG
14:55:11 <TomB> Chair: Guus
14:55:40 <TomB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0031.html
14:56:50 <TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html
14:57:14 <TomB> Regrets: Daniel, Jon, Ben
14:57:25 <TomB> rrsagent, please make record public
14:58:14 <TomB> edsu, hi!
14:58:19 <edsu> TomB: hey :)
14:58:29 <edsu> how're things?
14:58:30 <seanb> seanb has joined #swd
14:59:04 <TomB> thunderstorm here - a nice break
14:59:19 <Zakim> +Justin
14:59:44 <Bern> Bern has joined #swd
14:59:54 <TomB> zakim, justin is really edsu
14:59:54 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
15:00:11 <Antoine> Antoine has joined #swd
15:00:13 <Zakim> +Bernard
15:00:28 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #swd
15:00:45 <Zakim> +??P22
15:01:03 <TomB> zakim, ??p22 is seanb
15:01:09 <Zakim> +seanb; got it
15:01:20 <TomB> Scribe: Sean
15:01:26 <TomB> Scribenick: seanb
15:01:29 <Zakim> +edsu.a
15:01:37 <guus> guus has joined #swd
15:01:43 <Zakim> +Guus
15:01:49 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:02:00 <TomB> zakim, edsu.a is really clay
15:02:00 <Zakim> +clay; got it
15:02:13 <Elisa> Elisa has joined #swd
15:02:15 <guus> zakim, who is here?
15:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, edsu, Bernard, seanb, clay, Guus, Ralph
15:02:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see Elisa, guus, RalphS, Antoine, Bern, seanb, RRSAgent, Zakim, edsu, TomB
15:02:46 <Clay> Clay has joined #swd
15:02:57 <Zakim> +Antoine_Isaac
15:03:03 <Zakim> +clay.a
15:03:19 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
15:03:28 <guus> zakim, who is here?
15:03:33 <berrueta> berrueta has joined #swd
15:03:34 <aliman> aliman has joined #swd
15:03:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, edsu, Bernard, seanb, clay, Guus, Ralph, Antoine_Isaac, clay.a, Elisa_Kendall
15:03:57 <guus> zakim, ??P5 is TomB
15:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see aliman, berrueta, Clay, Elisa, guus, RalphS, Antoine, Bern, seanb, RRSAgent, Zakim, edsu, TomB
15:04:03 <TomB> zakim, clay.a is really justin
15:04:07 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
15:04:15 <Zakim> +justin; got it
15:04:43 <Zakim> +abel_rionda
15:04:48 <berrueta> zakim, abel_rionda is me
15:04:54 <Zakim> +berrueta; got it
15:04:56 <Zakim> +??P48
15:05:08 <RalphS> zakim, ??p48 is Alistair
15:05:18 <Zakim> +Alistair; got it
15:05:37 <seanb> Topic: Admin
15:06:07 <seanb> TomB: Welcome to  new members
15:06:17 <seanb> Justin: US library of congress. 
15:06:24 <RalphS> Justin Thorp
15:06:34 <seanb> ... research into emerging web technologies. incorporatio into web strategies
15:06:51 <RalphS> Clay Redding
15:06:53 <seanb> Clay: Also US LoC. Library Services department. 
15:07:09 <seanb> ... XML background. Office handles vocabs/code lists, so a natural fit
15:07:34 <seanb> TomB: Describing f2f procedure. 
15:08:04 <seanb> s/f2f/telecon
15:08:23 <seanb> Guus: Proposed accept miuntues of 5th June.
15:08:57 <seanb> ...all action items there.
15:09:14 <seanb> ...no objections
15:09:45 <seanb> Guus: Possible telecons cancelled in first two weeks of August
15:10:09 <seanb> TomB: Already added this to scribing document (duty/on deck).
15:10:19 <seanb> ... shows which telecons will be cancelled. 
15:10:39 <TomB> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/ScribeDuty
15:10:43 <edsu> LC is typical here i would say
15:10:50 <RalphS> ok, Ed
15:11:24 <seanb> Guus: Face to Face meeting
15:11:31 <seanb> ...plan to have f2f in fall
15:11:41 <seanb> ...look at results so far.
15:11:53 <seanb> Tomb: first option W3C Tech plenary week.
15:12:07 <seanb> ... summarising results of poll
15:12:46 <seanb> ...looks like tech plenary is better but Daniel and Guus can't make that
15:13:05 <seanb> ...might be able to get a small meeting of six people or so if half the maybes turn up
15:13:11 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/results current f2f2 poll results
15:13:25 <seanb> ...but if all came for tech plenary week could be 12.
15:13:33 <seanb> Guus: Could we split subjects?
15:13:45 <RalphS> q+
15:13:46 <seanb> ... e.g. RDfa in Boston, SKOS in Korea?
15:14:20 <seanb> ...might be piossible to have small SKOS meeting in Korea based on
15:14:24 <seanb> ...responses to far.
15:14:32 <seanb> Guus: All options suboptimal. 
15:14:43 <seanb> ... Guus and Tom to consider and makle a proposal
15:14:47 <seanb> Topic: SKOS
15:14:58 <seanb> ACTION: Ralph to update SKOS pages to point to UCR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:15:03 <seanb> --continues
15:15:26 <seanb> ACTION: Alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action03]
15:15:32 <seanb> --continues
15:15:43 <seanb> ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:15:46 <seanb> --continues
15:15:55 <seanb> ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:15:57 <seanb> --continues
15:16:17 <seanb> ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:16:20 <seanb> --continues
15:16:35 <seanb> Antoine: Do Jon and Alistair need help on this? Could contribute an hour
15:16:40 <seanb> Alistair: Yes please!
15:17:17 <seanb> Antoine: Wording issues. Some issues have different names in sandbox and requirements list
15:17:45 <seanb> Alistair: Didn't juyst transfer issues verbaitim. Tried to do some editing
15:17:58 <seanb> ... and choose names that were clearer, Is this an issue?
15:18:05 <seanb> ... did't think about matching req document.
15:18:14 <seanb> Guus: Antoine take the token. 
15:18:22 <seanb> AListair: happy for Antoine to do what he sees fit.
15:18:32 <seanb> ACTION: Guus to include a reference to the original requirements in the resolution proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:18:39 <seanb> --done
15:18:48 <seanb> ACTION: Guus to point to typical responses that follow guidelines described in telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action02]
15:19:08 <guus> DONE http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0033.html
15:19:09 <seanb> --done
15:19:52 <seanb> ACTION: Guus to rephrase current proposal, slightly revise naming based on comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action07]
15:19:55 <seanb> --done
15:19:59 <Bern> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/RelationshipsBetweenLabels/ProposalThree
15:20:54 <seanb> Guus: Added discussion note.
15:21:22 <seanb> ... discussions between antoine/daniel
15:21:34 <seanb> ... terms are words used to refer to skos concepts
15:21:52 <seanb> ...if you use that then people might think sklos:term is what one defines broader/narrower on
15:22:13 <seanb> ...maybe not an ideal term, but alternatives are worse. Label is confusing, LabelResource too
15:22:29 <seanb> ....complex, word confuses focus. Guus strong preference for skos:Term
15:22:50 <seanb> Bernard: WHy is lable confusing? The whole discussion is confusing
15:23:05 <seanb> Guus: Label comes from RDF terminology. Every resource/UYRI can have a 
15:23:28 <seanb> ...label. Original SKOS had a subproperty of rdsf:label. Now two ways of
15:23:33 <RalphS> s/UYRI/URI/
15:23:46 <seanb> ...defining the terms that you want to refere to a concets. Either a label (literal). Or as a 
15:24:13 <aliman> q+ to ask what the relationship is between a "term" and a "language"
15:24:23 <seanb> ...URI that links to other URIs. prefLabel will then link to a literal rather than a label. SO confusing.
15:24:37 <seanb> ...Normal in thesauri terms to talk about terms as being items that are used to refer
15:24:45 <seanb> ...to a notion in a vocabulary
15:24:51 <RalphS> q+
15:25:02 <seanb> Bernard: Problem is that we're tryng to address many audiences with different preconceptions
15:25:03 <aliman> +1 on what bernard said
15:25:15 <seanb> Guus: Can the LC people take a look and advise?
15:25:28 <seanb> Ed: Spent some time reviewing proposal, getting up to speed.
15:25:49 <seanb> ... glossary is referenced (willpower). In there ideas like concept and term aredefined
15:26:13 <seanb> ...seemed pretty clear what they meant. In general, want a miminal fix approach.
15:26:38 <seanb> ...doumentation properties can have three different values literal, resource description or uri
15:26:52 <seanb> ...why can't we use that? 
15:27:15 <seanb> Guus: Original proposal was to remove a constraint and make spec smaller. Main problem is
15:27:43 <seanb> ... introducing confusion. Tools need to be on the lookout. To visualise a concept need to be aware if it's
15:27:48 <aliman> q+ to remark on possibility of using SKOS "extensions" namespace
15:28:03 <seanb> ...pointing to a literal or a resource. Second issue is OWL. Won't be able to work with
15:28:20 <seanb> ... this as OWL required stricty separation of object/data properties. Hence simple extension
15:28:47 <seanb> ...proposal. Minmal extra thing to ghandle the OWL issue. If you use prefLabel it's a literla. If
15:28:53 <seanb> ...prefTerm it's a resource.
15:29:19 <seanb> Ed: Acronym example does a good job of describing why terms as resoruces would be useful. 
15:29:32 <seanb> ...What's the use case where this came up? WHo asked for what functionality?
15:30:15 <seanb> Guus: Top of document. Link to candidate requirements and use cases
15:30:25 <seanb> Antopine: Anchors for each requirement are there.
15:30:29 <aliman> q+ to comment on motivation for relationships between labels
15:30:59 <seanb> Guus: Main questino was whether the distinction between concept and term is confusing?
15:31:40 <seanb> Ed: Antoine questioning the use of concept in SKOS? Thesauri don't really have concepts. Is that right?
15:31:58 <seanb> Antoine: Not questioning the way that it's done. Agree with this. Issue is that duruing discussion with
15:32:14 <seanb> ...Daniel there's ambigutiy between term based and concept based approach. Would agreee with 
15:32:25 <seanb> ...current stance of SKOS.
15:32:47 <seanb> Ed: unrealted to this tracking discussion on general SW list . URIs for things that aren't resources. 
15:32:48 <aliman> maybe we should deal with the semantics of skos:Concept first?
15:33:14 <seanb> ...Idea of addressing concepts is subtle. Core guide referes to indirectin. Some helpful text about
15:33:40 <seanb> ...Henry VIII. Henry VIII as SKOS coceopts is different from Henry VIII as SKOS concept
15:34:02 <seanb> ...If it's just terms that don't have to map to concepts then it would maybe be easier.
15:34:28 <seanb> Guus: Point referred to is a broader issue. Goes to the root of concept-based representaiton in SKOS
15:34:45 <seanb> ...WOuld be unwilling to open that door unles there are compeilliong reasons.
15:34:50 <seanb> Ed: No, that's fine.
15:35:14 <seanb> Guus: Want to start closing issues. Interested in Alistair's opinion
15:35:34 <seanb> Alistair: Favourite position on this is a move towards original n-ary relations pattern. 
15:35:57 <seanb> ...Origial proposal my alistair a little contrived. Want miminal solution. Nice now that the 
15:36:19 <seanb> ...extgension propoisal is detailed, can figure out the detailed consquences, e.g. various entailments
15:36:42 <seanb> ...that would follow. Would like to see alternative proposals presented so that options can be compared 
15:36:45 <Bern> s/Origial/Original
15:37:02 <seanb> ...side by side. As a solution, concerned that simple extension has consequences that are hard
15:37:06 <seanb> ...to fathom.
15:37:09 <seanb> Guus: What are those?
15:37:28 <seanb> Ali: In the example, theres a term with labels in two languages. What dfoes it mean for a term to 
15:38:01 <seanb> ...be labelled in two languages. Isn;t a term embedded in a language? 
15:38:12 <seanb> ...Could end up with different patterns of use. 
15:38:38 <seanb> Guus: One resolution is to restrict label property to cardinaloty 1.
15:38:58 <seanb> Ali: But then what about transliteration or character sets? More than one way to write down a term
15:39:02 <seanb> ...in a language.
15:39:15 <seanb> Guus: Same issue in current SKOS with mutliple labels.
15:39:54 <seanb> Antoine: Support Alistairs proposal for on rdfslabel per term. Multple wrding is
15:40:11 <seanb> ...a situation where you have mutlple terms each with its label, and relationships between the,
15:40:33 <seanb> Alistair: Commenting on Ed's question re. use cases. Most compelling use cases 
15:41:04 <seanb> ... are mutlilingulaity. E.g. Japanese and making links between different character sets.
15:41:10 <seanb> ...Most iportant motiviation
15:41:44 <seanb> Guus: Keen to close. Propose action on Guus to update w.r.t. Alistair's issues. If you 
15:42:06 <seanb> ...want a proposal there, need to present it
15:42:17 <seanb> Alistair: It's a difficult issue. 
15:42:37 <seanb> Guus: If we resolve an issue and there are tehcnical problems, we can reopen
15:43:05 <seanb> Alistair: Other issues might be lower hanging fruit.
15:43:13 <seanb> ...trying to find time to do this.
15:43:28 <seanb> Guus: Need to tackle the hard issues. 
15:43:54 <seanb> Alistair: When SKOS originally set up. Three namespaces. SKOS, Mappings and Extensions
15:44:20 <seanb> ...Extensions never stabilised. To more forward, maybe have proposals in an extensions namespace
15:44:32 <seanb> ...that's pbulsihed as a note, otuside normative recommendation
15:44:55 <seanb> Guus: Experience of dialects not always positive. Could put everything into an 
15:45:07 <seanb> ...extensions space and then decide on status later. 
15:45:35 <seanb> ... Two things. 1/ using extensions space for working things out
15:45:42 <seanb> ...2/ what is normative.
15:45:54 <seanb> ...Could decide everyhting in the extensions space is normative.
15:46:14 <seanb> Alistair: Another issue. Example that arises whn modeliing terms. Simple extyension proposal
15:46:30 <seanb> ...prefTerm is functional. So can only be one.
15:46:46 <Zakim> -clay
15:46:58 <seanb> ...what happens to entities in an open world? People have always modelled vocabs
15:47:22 <seanb> ...as data structures within defined boundaries. What if someone comes along and assertes identity
15:47:40 <seanb> ...between two terms? 
15:47:44 <Zakim> +[LC]
15:48:07 <RalphS> zakim, LC is probably Clay
15:48:07 <Zakim> +Clay?; got it
15:48:14 <seanb> ACTION: Guus to update proposal with issue of single vs. multiple labels for terms
15:48:15 <Clay> yes
15:48:30 <seanb> ACTION: Alistair to provide details of alternative proposal
15:49:15 <seanb> ACTION: Antoine to put SimpleExtensionProposal into wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/05-swd-minutes.html#action08]
15:49:17 <seanb> --done
15:49:24 <TomB> aliman, where is the extension namespace documented?
15:49:51 <seanb> Guus: Would like to leave SKOS concepts and ontology classes for now
15:50:03 <seanb> ...Grouping construct no progress. But no actions
15:50:04 <aliman> -> http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/extensions/spec/ SKOS extensions specification
15:50:07 <seanb> ...WHo owns the issue?
15:50:24 <seanb> Alistair: Still action on me to propose minimal fix
15:51:05 <seanb> ACTION: Alistair to propose resolution for Issue-33 (minimal fix)
15:51:12 <TomB> aliman - thank you!
15:51:43 <seanb> Guus: Report on SKOS validator. Messages from Antoine and AListair
15:52:01 <seanb> Antoine: Recently converted vocab to SKOS. 
15:52:07 <Zakim> -Bernard
15:52:19 <aliman> -> http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/validation SKOS validation service (alpha)
15:52:24 <seanb> ...used tool for vocab validation. Went ok. 
15:52:42 <seanb> ...devoted to current version. Might have to be adapted, but it's useful.
15:53:07 <seanb> Alistair: interesting thing about validation service is that it bears on how
15:53:30 <seanb> ...how we define broader/narrower/related. Service looks for circulairyt. Assumes that
15:53:45 <RalphS> [I will try to remember to write my comments about naming into email -- I wanted to say that given a choice between choosing terminology that may confuse RDF/OWK folk and terminology that is confusing to the expected SKOS community, I'd make the RDF/OWL folk work harder; we're accustomed to the idea of terminology namespaces already.]
15:53:52 <seanb> ...circularity is non-sensical. SHould that be embedded in semantics? 
15:54:23 <seanb> ...Also not just cycles, but overlap, e.g. if there are multiple paths in the hierarchy. 
15:54:43 <seanb> Guus: OWL Validator. Gives errors and warnings
15:55:08 <seanb> Alistair: Yes. Errors and warnings. Currently set up for cycles -> errors
15:55:25 <RalphS> Sean: the question is really what is considered to be an error and what is considered a warning
15:55:33 <RalphS> ... are multiple pathways an error?
15:55:56 <seanb> Guus: SKOS validator can act as a tool for candidate req stage later.
15:56:06 <seanb> ...would be useful to look for other tools to support skos.
15:56:17 <aliman> q+ to mention two implementations
15:56:26 <RalphS> Sean: do we have a reasonable definition of "a tool that supports SKOS"?
15:56:45 <seanb> Alistair: Paper for DC conference last year. Defined three types of tools
15:56:52 <seanb> ... vocab development
15:57:06 <seanb> ... indexing applications. Read vocab allow tagging
15:57:23 <seanb> ...retrieval applciations. Use the structure and the idnex/metadata. Support browse/search
15:57:42 <seanb> ... Three classes of application. Look at requirements document. USe cases go outside of that
15:57:45 <seanb> ...scope. 
15:57:57 <RalphS> [I note that some attempt to define what it means to "support SKOS" will be very useful when the WG gets to proposing exit criteria for Candidate Recommendation]
15:58:14 <RalphS> Sean: we should be clear about what we think implementation will be
15:58:21 <RalphS> ... is bound up in test cases too
15:58:41 <RalphS> ... a set of concrete test cases could define what it means to support SKOS
15:59:03 <aliman> SKOS implementations of vocabulary development applications: ThManager and the NSDL Metadata Registry
15:59:15 <seanb> Topic: Recipes
15:59:23 <seanb> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:59:29 <seanb> --continues
15:59:43 <seanb> Topic: Vocabulary Management
15:59:57 <TomB> q+
16:00:11 <seanb> Elisa: Possibility to take topics one by one
16:00:36 <seanb> ...if we have enough bandwidth on call, take opinion on issues. 
16:00:41 <aliman> -> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/public/skos/press/dc2006/camera-ready-paper.pdf SKOS: Requirements for standardisation (paper for DC2006 which talks about classes of application using SKOS) see also presentation: http://dc2006.ucol.mx/papers/miercoles/10.30/presentation.pdf
16:00:49 <seanb> ...Keep it tight and make reference to things that people are doing.
16:01:04 <edsu> aliman: thanks
16:01:11 <seanb> ... get people to write one or two sentences. Which topics to cover in each section
16:01:17 <seanb> ...Perhaps one section per call.
16:01:29 <seanb> Guus: Happy to put that on the agenda for next week.
16:01:41 <seanb> Elisa: First section. Named terms using URI referencec
16:01:49 <seanb> Guus: Link?
16:01:58 <seanb> Elisa: yes in the agenda
16:02:30 <seanb> TomB: Given resource constraints , only realistic thing is to 
16:02:41 <seanb> ...try and finish it in a form close to the current one.
16:02:50 <RalphS> Elisa: see "Name Terms using URI References" in -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/VocabMgtDraft Vocab Wiki draft
16:02:52 <seanb> ...five high level points in a page or so each. 
16:03:12 <seanb> ...would still take an awful lot of work. Diuscussion with Elisa, would be doable to 
16:03:31 <seanb> ...do a high level note, but requires real resource. E.g. SW list discussing exactly this problem
16:04:00 <seanb> Guus: We are out of time. Let's take this up next week.
16:04:23 <seanb> ...Ben not here, we'll ask for an update next week. 
16:04:34 <seanb> [adjourned]
16:04:36 <Zakim> -justin
16:04:37 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
16:04:40 <Zakim> -Alistair
16:04:41 <Zakim> -edsu
16:04:43 <Zakim> -Clay?
16:04:44 <Zakim> -Antoine_Isaac
16:04:45 <Zakim> -berrueta
16:05:05 <TomB> zakim, who is on the call?
16:05:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB, seanb, Guus, Ralph
16:05:16 <RalphS> zakim, list participants
16:05:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been edsu, Bernard, seanb, Guus, Ralph, clay, Antoine_Isaac, Elisa_Kendall, TomB, justin, berrueta, Alistair, Clay?
16:05:41 <Zakim> -Guus
16:05:51 <TomB> zakim, who is on the call?
16:05:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB, seanb, Ralph
16:05:55 <seanb> rssagent, please draft minutes
16:06:12 <seanb> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/12-swd-minutes.html seanb
16:06:19 <Zakim> -seanb
16:06:22 <edsu> edsu has left #swd
16:06:33 <Zakim> -TomB
16:06:35 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:07:13 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:07:15 <Zakim> Attendees were edsu, Bernard, seanb, Guus, Ralph, clay, Antoine_Isaac, Elisa_Kendall, TomB, justin, berrueta, Alistair, Clay?
16:18:47 <Antoine> Antoine has left #swd
16:45:30 <seanb> seanb has left #swd
18:26:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swd