IRC log of rdfa on 2007-05-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:00:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc
15:00:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
15:00:25 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be rdfa
15:00:32 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:53 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
15:00:56 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:01:06 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:08 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
15:01:12 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:01:27 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
15:01:41 [steven-617]
zakim, dial me
15:01:41 [Zakim]
ok, steven-617; the call is being made
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:01:51 [steven-617]
ha it worked
15:02:14 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0060.html
15:02:41 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven
15:02:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see benadida, Zakim, RRSAgent, RalphS, Steven, kwijibo_, markbirbeck, ShaneM
15:02:51 [RalphS]
Regrets: Shane
15:02:51 [Steven]
Regrets+Shane
15:03:13 [RalphS]
Regrets+ Simone, Michael
15:03:23 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:03:31 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
15:03:31 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
15:04:36 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-04-23
15:05:11 [RalphS]
Topic: Action Item Review
15:05:51 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:06:02 [RalphS]
-- done
15:06:15 [RalphS]
Ben: I was supposed to followup with an email summarizing the status
15:06:47 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status
15:06:55 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action18]
15:06:57 [RalphS]
-- done
15:07:07 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
15:07:10 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:07:48 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:07:53 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:08:03 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action19]
15:08:04 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:08:14 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
15:08:16 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:08:26 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:08:27 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:08:36 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
15:08:37 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:08:49 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:08:59 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
15:09:14 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:09:37 [RalphS]
Mark: that's connected to whether we drop reification
15:09:38 [RalphS]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
15:09:41 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:09:50 [RalphS]
ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:09:52 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:09:58 [RalphS]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
15:10:04 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:10:27 [RalphS]
ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:10:29 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:11:12 [RalphS]
Topic: Summary of Recent Presentations
15:11:36 [RalphS]
Steven: there were lots of talks in which RDFa was mentioned
15:11:43 [RalphS]
... I noted them on rdfa.info
15:11:51 [RalphS]
... I was pumped that there was so much going on
15:11:56 [RalphS]
Ralph: +1
15:12:09 [RalphS]
Steven: it was great to see how much was being done with RDFa
15:12:41 [RalphS]
Ralph: there were several talks using RDFa from people I didn't know were using it
15:13:22 [RalphS]
... my reaction was 'we should just finish this quickly with minimal changes'
15:13:53 [RalphS]
Steven: we shouldn't keep it a moving target
15:14:35 [RalphS]
... Fabien mentioned RDFa in his GRDDL talk
15:14:50 [RalphS]
Mark: things are speeding up
15:15:36 [RalphS]
... people doing RDF work when they want to do something that relates to HTML will consider microformats, e-RDF, and RDFa and seem to be seeing why RDFa is more useful
15:16:11 [RalphS]
... FireFox operator support for RDFa is an indication of adoption
15:18:19 [RalphS]
Mark: Elias' presentation was one of the clearest I've heard
15:18:26 [RalphS]
... Elias didn't focus on the syntax
15:18:53 [RalphS]
... Elias went directly to 'what does RDFa do for you?'
15:19:06 [RalphS]
... value proposition was very clear
15:19:23 [RalphS]
Steven: Elias showed how easy it is to add a new vocabulary
15:20:10 [RalphS]
... operator adds things like add-to-calendar for microformats; Elias showed the same thing for RDFa
15:22:14 [RalphS]
Topic: State of Documents
15:22:26 [RalphS]
Ben: primer is more-or-less stable, with a few comments
15:22:35 [RalphS]
Steven: urgent that we add @REV
15:22:52 [RalphS]
Ben: we'll likely have to add @RESOURCE also
15:23:33 [RalphS]
Steven: we've already decided @REV so it's high priority to include it in the primer
15:23:56 [RalphS]
Steven: I'm working on the syntax document
15:24:38 [RalphS]
Ben: I can be ready to resume editing on syntax document in a couple of weeks
15:24:55 [RalphS]
... the source is the XMLSPEC (.xml) version
15:25:30 [RalphS]
Steven: the work on the syntax doc is to bring it up-to-date w.r.t. our decisions
15:25:47 [RalphS]
Mark: I'm willing to help work on the syntax doc
15:27:09 [RalphS]
Ben: we should aim to be done before November
15:27:29 [RalphS]
... if SWD has a f2f in November, that should be the last WG vote we need
15:28:44 [RalphS]
Topic: Splitting the RDFa design into core + dialect specifics
15:29:13 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0031 PROPOSAL: Split RDFa into two pieces--core attributes, plus language-specific 'interpretations'
15:29:21 [RalphS]
Mark: this proposal is more about a mindset
15:29:44 [RalphS]
... Ben captured the essence in one of his replies
15:30:26 [RalphS]
... having a structure may give us a framework for making decisions more quickly on issues such as @HREF everywhere
15:30:47 [RalphS]
... criteria for deciding
15:31:03 [RalphS]
... propose that changing the host language is out of scope
15:31:26 [Steven]
q+
15:31:46 [RalphS]
... but we have more flexibility with new attributes we create
15:32:25 [RalphS]
... so mindset is to distinguish between attributes that already exist in the host language and new attributes we've added
15:33:13 [RalphS]
... future host languages, e.g. XHTML2, can learn from RDFa experience and adopt features
15:33:26 [RalphS]
... core document describes key features
15:33:41 [RalphS]
... syntax document is effectively a dialect for a specific host language
15:34:49 [RalphS]
Steven: concerned if the genericity would be lost; could one still implement a generic RDFa processor that is host language-independent?
15:35:01 [RalphS]
... wouldn't like to add special rules for particular languages
15:35:11 [RalphS]
... not sure that it makes sense to talk about a 'host language'
15:35:30 [RalphS]
... unless we put attributes into a separate namespace, what's the notion of a host language?
15:35:40 [RalphS]
... @ABOUT doesn't exist in XHTML1.1, for example
15:35:58 [RalphS]
... I've always viewed these as a coherent set of attributes, designed for XHTML2
15:36:07 [RalphS]
Ben: if we follow this rule, @REL everywhere also doesn't work
15:36:28 [RalphS]
Mark: yes, just as you've argued against @HREF everywhere
15:36:46 [RalphS]
Ben: my argument against @HREF everywhere is that authors expect @HREF to be clickable
15:37:09 [Steven]
q+
15:37:33 [RalphS]
... if there's an @HREF that is not human-navigable, does this start to make a separate RDF navigation branch different from the human-navigational branch?
15:37:50 [RalphS]
... @HREF on a span would only be there for RDFa, not for human navigation
15:38:08 [RalphS]
... this is the start of parallel metadata rather than marking-up what the user already sees
15:38:35 [markbirbeck]
q+
15:38:46 [RalphS]
Steven: I say this is a feature; if you want clickable behaviour, use A, otherwise if you're happy that it's not clickable, use some other element
15:39:09 [RalphS]
Ben: as an HTML author, if I want to mark up existing text as data I can add @REL
15:39:24 [RalphS]
... but using @HREF on a SPAN that isn't clickable is purely for the machine, not for the human
15:39:29 [RalphS]
... like LINK in HEAD
15:39:39 [RalphS]
... separating human stuff from machine stuff
15:40:06 [RalphS]
Steven: the semantics don't disappear; the browser could still do something, such as provide a menu
15:40:20 [RalphS]
... it only happens not to be clickable at the point in the page
15:40:29 [RalphS]
... if the author wanted it clickable, she would have used A
15:40:45 [RalphS]
Mark: what's confusing to me is that the criteria for changing the syntax are currently hard to nail down
15:40:57 [RalphS]
... one person's "easy" is not easy or obvious to another
15:41:31 [RalphS]
... in the past few days we've found examples, like Joost and Yahoo!, where authors are using @HREF exactly as it's intended
15:42:02 [RalphS]
... we're having difficulty agreeing on this, so my proposal is to rely on the host language for the interpretation
15:42:09 [RalphS]
... if host language allows @REL everywhere, fine
15:42:50 [RalphS]
... the additional attributes we invent can have more general rules
15:43:09 [RalphS]
... so if we want @REL everywhere, we'd need to add our own REL attribute
15:43:35 [RalphS]
Ben: I admit there's some logical inconsistency versus starting fresh with a clean design
15:43:54 [RalphS]
... no one has said that @REL everywhere is problematic
15:44:22 [RalphS]
Mark: but it's the same issue with @HREF everywhere
15:44:48 [RalphS]
Ben: I liked @RESOURCE as a solution; I think of @RESOURCE as parallel to @CONTENT
15:45:12 [RalphS]
... CONTENT="..." is an indication of a need to override the human-readable text with different machine-readable version
15:45:44 [RalphS]
... @RESOURCE is similar; the author can't easily make the human=readable form clickable
15:45:55 [RalphS]
Mark: gets into issues I didn't want to bring up right now
15:46:21 [RalphS]
... rdfs:label is about preserving contents
15:46:41 [RalphS]
... mirror situation is that @RESOURCE and @HREF on the same element should both be parsed
15:46:57 [RalphS]
... RDFa core does not have a notion of 'clickability'
15:47:22 [RalphS]
... moving up to the HTML layer we find attributes that may have RDFa interpretations
15:47:43 [RalphS]
... we can decide which of the HTML features have an RDFa interpretation
15:48:01 [RalphS]
... @REL and @REV are in HTML space and we can define their RDFa interpretation
15:48:27 [RalphS]
... the profile (dialect) can say whether @REL is permitted everywhere
15:49:06 [RalphS]
Ben: trying to consider this from the viewpoint of HTML, acknowledging that I'm not an HTML expert ...
15:49:25 [RalphS]
... consider a chunk of HTML today that has <SPAN HREF="...">
15:49:31 [RalphS]
... today that is not clickable.
15:49:43 [RalphS]
... if it becomes clickable in XHTML2, that might not be what I wanted
15:50:06 [RalphS]
Steven: 'clickable' does not necessarily mean the XHTML2 browser would render it in blue with an underline
15:50:22 [RalphS]
... don't confuse the ability to dereference an @HREF with the rendering presentation
15:50:33 [RalphS]
... only A would give blue underlined presentation
15:50:43 [RalphS]
Mark: I think @RESOURCE is the best solution anyway
15:51:02 [RalphS]
... if we have @HREF as the definer of the object then we have no way of defining an object that is not clickable
15:51:10 [RalphS]
... so reintroducing @RESORUCE gets us out of this
15:51:45 [RalphS]
... more broadly, it would help us to have a better sense of which level we're playing with when we discuss a change
15:52:13 [RalphS]
Ben: every time we've been forced to compromise; @REL has felt so 'right' to many people
15:52:23 [RalphS]
... we've had to deal with varied expectations of HTML
15:52:43 [RalphS]
... and we have had to consider the general public's reaction even if we don't know how to measure it very carefully
15:53:13 [RalphS]
Mark: I'm not necessarily opposed to @REL everywhere, just trying to point out the proposed core principle
15:53:47 [RalphS]
... I'm suggesting that @REL should not be a core RDFa attribute; it remains an HTML attribute to which we give an RDFa interpretation
15:54:21 [RalphS]
... and instruct Shane that when he produces a DTD, in addition to adding @ABOUT, etc., he permits @REL, @REV everywhere
15:54:44 [RalphS]
... we don't necessarily have to restructure the documents to identify 'core' vs. 'host' features
15:55:28 [RalphS]
... currently the only cases where we modify HTML are @REL and @REV everywhere
15:56:24 [RalphS]
Ben: what will the XHTML2 specification recommend to browsers when they find @HREF on a SPAN?
15:56:49 [RalphS]
Steven: the browser shouldl make the @HREF accessible in some way but not as a blue underline; only A should render as a blue underline
15:56:58 [RalphS]
Ben: that makes me more comfortable
15:57:26 [RalphS]
... but if RDFa proposes @HREF everywhere that still feels like we're stepping into the scope of HTML
15:57:45 [RalphS]
... whereas @REL everywhere doesn't have any [rendering] behavior
15:58:25 [RalphS]
Topic: RDFa @resource attribute
15:58:33 [RalphS]
Ben: there seems to be support for this on the list
15:58:40 [RalphS]
Steven: I see it as a complication
15:58:57 [RalphS]
... sometimes you have to use @resource and sometimes @href so you need a rule to know which to use
15:59:04 [RalphS]
Mark: I'm suggesting that both would be parsed
15:59:32 [RalphS]
Steven: I prefer to use @HREF everywhere
15:59:47 [RalphS]
... we can't ask for this behavior in XHTML 1.1
16:00:20 [RalphS]
... all that's happening in XHTML2 is that the spec will ask the browser to let the user do _something_ with @HREF on SPAM
16:00:25 [RalphS]
s/SPAM/SPAN/
16:00:41 [RalphS]
... XHTML2 will just make the content a little more accessible to users
16:00:53 [RalphS]
Mark: but there would be no way to create a non-clickable resource
16:01:15 [RalphS]
... Ben argued at length against having to repeat the data in @HREF
16:01:29 [RalphS]
... my view now is that @HREF is a special case of @RESOURCE
16:01:42 [RalphS]
... @RESOURCE is abstract, purely about the metadata
16:01:56 [RalphS]
... @HREF makes it accessible to the user
16:04:31 [RalphS]
Steven: perhaps we need a URI scheme that signals that something is *not* dereferencable?
16:04:39 [RalphS]
Ralph: I hope you mean that as a joke
16:04:54 [RalphS]
... perhaps we have different notions of what "dereference" means
16:05:12 [RalphS]
Ben: let's progress the discussion in mail
16:05:50 [RalphS]
Ralph: do we have a clear place where our open issues are documented?
16:05:57 [RalphS]
Ben: We're using tracker
16:06:29 [benadida]
ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already
16:07:23 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:07:23 [RalphS]
next meeting: next week, same time
16:07:24 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
16:07:24 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
16:07:34 [RalphS]
(i.e. June 7)
16:07:38 [RalphS]
[adjourned]
16:07:41 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:07:44 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:07:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, markbirbeck
16:07:49 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
16:07:53 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:07:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:08:38 [benadida]
benadida has left #rdfa
16:08:48 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to discuss Primer and Use Cases as Note, Syntax and Test Cases as REC, at SWD WG meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [1]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-05-51
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben send email to SWD WG list summarizing RDFa document status [2]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-47
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to schedule new telecon time starting May 7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action18] [3]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-06-55
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark to write up a consistent story on the @SRC attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [4]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-07
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [5]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-07-48
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to ask W3C about XML-DTD validation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action19] [6]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-03
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to flesh out the schedule and present for everyone's approval next week. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [7]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-14
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [8]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-26
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [9]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-36
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [10]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-49
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [11]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-08-59
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [12]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-38
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MichaelH to do partitioning of TCs, freeze the XHTML1.1+RDFa, and invite implementors to comment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [13]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-50
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [14]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-09-58
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [15]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T15-10-27
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to review tracker issues and add @resource, @href, @src, profile if not there already [16]
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/31-rdfa-irc#T16-06-29