IRC log of swd on 2007-05-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:09 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swd

14:54:09 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc

14:54:15 [TomB]

rrsagent, bookmark

14:54:15 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T14-54-15

14:54:20 [TomB]

zakim, this will be swd

14:54:20 [Zakim]

ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started

14:54:28 [TomB]

Meeting: SWD WG

14:54:30 [TomB]

Chair: Tom

14:54:55 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

14:54:56 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended

14:54:57 [Zakim]

Attendees were [IPcaller]

14:55:50 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started

14:55:57 [Zakim]

+??P2

14:56:31 [TomB]

zakim, ??P2 is TomB

14:56:33 [Zakim]

+TomB; got it

14:58:05 [TomB]

Meeting: SWD WG

14:58:08 [TomB]

Chair: Tom

14:58:38 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:58:48 [TomB]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0053.html

14:59:07 [Elisa]

Elisa has joined #swd

14:59:45 [dlrubin]

dlrubin has joined #swd

14:59:49 [TomB]

Regrets: Daniel, Michael, Diego, Vit, Sean

15:00:06 [JonP]

JonP has joined #swd

15:00:07 [TomB]

zakim, who is on the call?

15:00:07 [Zakim]

On the phone I see TomB, Ralph

15:00:21 [Antoine]

Antoine has joined #swd

15:00:44 [Zakim]

+Jon_Phipps

15:00:57 [Zakim]

+Elisa_Kendall

15:01:13 [Bern]

Bern has joined #swd

15:01:15 [Zakim]

+??P31

15:01:15 [JonP]

zakim, Jon_Phipps is me

15:01:16 [Zakim]

+JonP; got it

15:01:18 [Zakim]

+??P32

15:01:35 [TomB]

rrsagent, please make record public

15:01:35 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p32 is Antoine

15:01:36 [Zakim]

+Antoine; got it

15:01:49 [aliman]

aliman has joined #swd

15:01:49 [Zakim]

+ +0120682aaaa

15:02:03 [RalphS]

zakim, aaaa is Bernard

15:02:03 [Zakim]

+Bernard; got it

15:02:14 [dlrubin]

zakim, ??P31 is Daniel

15:02:14 [Zakim]

+Daniel; got it

15:02:19 [TomB]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html

15:02:30 [TomB]

zakim, who is on the call?

15:02:30 [Zakim]

On the phone I see TomB, Ralph, JonP, Elisa_Kendall, Daniel, Antoine, Bernard

15:02:43 [seanb]

seanb has joined #swd

15:03:20 [TomB]

Scribenick: JonP

15:03:24 [TomB]

Scribe: Jon

15:03:37 [Zakim]

+??P42

15:03:45 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p42 is Alistair

15:03:45 [Zakim]

+Alistair; got it

15:03:51 [Zakim]

+??P43

15:04:03 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p43 is Sean

15:04:05 [Zakim]

+Sean; got it

15:04:49 [JonP]

RESOLVED: to accept minutes of 22 May telecon: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html

15:05:19 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/results Second F2F poll results

15:05:45 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

15:05:53 [benadida]

benadida has joined #SWD

15:06:22 [JonP]

TomB: Please respond to the poll at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/?

15:06:41 [JonP]

ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]

15:06:43 [RalphS]

Topic: SKOS

15:06:46 [JonP]

--continues

15:07:12 [aliman]

q+ to ask sean about test cases format

15:07:26 [JonP]

ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]

15:07:30 [JonP]

--continues

15:07:45 [JonP]

ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting the SKOS semantics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05]

15:07:48 [JonP]

--continues

15:08:01 [JonP]

ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]

15:08:05 [JonP]

--continues

15:08:26 [JonP]

ACTION: chairs to open issue 31 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07]

15:08:29 [JonP]

--done

15:08:35 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/31 ISSUE-31

15:08:39 [JonP]

ACTION: open issue 31 in tracker for discussion next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]

15:08:42 [JonP]

--done

15:09:40 [JonP]

TomB: Guus sent out an email to the list WRT ISSUE-26 proposal

15:09:55 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0057.html ISSUE-26: SimpleExtension proposal [Guus]

15:09:57 [JonP]

...we'll return to that after a few messages from our sponsor

15:10:10 [JonP]

ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for other options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07]

15:10:13 [JonP]

--done

15:11:23 [JonP]

TomB: Let's move the discussion of ISSUE-33 forward until we have some time

15:11:31 [JonP]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]

15:11:35 [JonP]

--continues

15:12:20 [JonP]

ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11]

15:12:26 [JonP]

--continues

15:12:58 [JonP]

Elisa: We're making progress and should have something very soon

15:13:33 [RalphS]

yes, Ed Summers, Library of Congress, has been appointed to the WG

15:13:43 [JonP]

TomB: Ed Summers from US LOC will be joining the WG -- he has an interest in SKOS as well as vocabulary management as well

15:14:38 [JonP]

benadida: Important! RDFa telecon is moving to Thursdays 1800 UTC

15:14:49 [RalphS]

q+ to confirm RDFa telecon time

15:15:12 [RalphS]

s/1800/1500

15:15:15 [RalphS]

q-

15:15:18 [JonP]

...Not a whole lot to report, but if you know about the FireFox Extension 'Operator' it will soon support RDFa

15:15:24 [TomB]

ack RalphS

15:15:30 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007May/0060.html Next Telecon - This Thursday, 1500 UTC

15:16:53 [JonP]

Alistair: RE: SKOS Test Cases

15:17:13 [RalphS]

Topic: SKOS Test Cases

15:17:27 [RalphS]

ack alistair

15:17:31 [JonP]

...wants to ask Sean if he has thoughts about Test Case structure

15:17:32 [RalphS]

ack ali

15:17:32 [Zakim]

aliman, you wanted to ask sean about test cases format

15:18:06 [JonP]

SeanB: Basically follow the OWL Test Case structure, but otherwise doesn't have a lot of advice (yet)

15:18:49 [RalphS]

Regrets+ Siggi

15:19:02 [JonP]

...might be hard to mandate how things are displayed as part of a test case

15:19:21 [JonP]

...without making the test case application-specific

15:20:33 [JonP]

...and that might be better expressed as a best practice recommendation rather then making it part of the specification via a test case

15:20:36 [Antoine]

q+ to ask tom about issue lifecycle

15:21:25 [JonP]

TomB: We should postpone probably ISSUE-26 discussion until next week

15:21:27 [TomB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0008.html

15:22:20 [RalphS]

"Re: [SKOS] tracking SKOS issues"

15:22:39 [aliman]

+1

15:22:46 [Bern]

+1

15:23:32 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/3

15:24:04 [TomB]

scribenick: Aliman

15:24:21 [aliman]

ralph: look at product page, can only see open issues for a product...

15:24:23 [aliman]

if could see open and raise issues?

15:24:39 [aliman]

antoine: if go to page with raised issues, almost all about SKOS, so perhaps ok.

15:25:09 [aliman]

ralph: noted that before, took untracked action item, to make open issues page include raised issues.

15:25:11 [Bern]

q+ difference between 'open' and 'raised'?

15:25:40 [aliman]

ralph: don't have problem with raising issue first, don't need to propose first.

15:26:08 [aliman]

tomb: issue process page ...

15:26:37 [aliman]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess

15:26:50 [aliman]

tomb: need to get these linked up,

15:27:13 [aliman]

ralph: process says can raise issue directly in tracker

15:27:28 [aliman]

tomb: doesn't say have to raise issue tracker.

15:27:33 [aliman]

ralph: cahge may to must

15:27:47 [JonP]

JonP has joined #swd

15:28:19 [aliman]

ralph: resolved to do this?

15:28:20 [aliman]

tomb: advantage is clear.

15:28:27 [aliman]

bernard: which doc?

15:28:41 [aliman]

tomb: IssuesProcess, paragraph 1.1

15:28:56 [aliman]

bernard: does that mean there is alternative mechanism?

15:29:04 [aliman]

ralph: proposing things in mail, losing track.

15:29:30 [aliman]

RESOLVED if its not on tracker, its not an issue.

15:29:44 [aliman]

ralph: encourage RDFa TF to do the same.

15:29:51 [aliman]

ben: ok

15:30:18 [aliman]

tomb: jonP "anoint someone to be the official watcher of the list who will have the responsibility of adding to the tracker issues raised by non-members"

15:30:34 [aliman]

... anyone willing to be watcher for issues on list, esp. SKOS issues?

15:30:43 [aliman]

antoine: I will volunteer.

15:30:55 [Antoine]

q+ to ask Alistair about link between issues and requirements

15:31:18 [aliman]

tomb: will note that in IssuesProcess

15:31:43 [aliman]

tomb: jon suggested: "add _all_ of the issues currently in the issues sandbox into the

15:31:45 [aliman]

tracker as 'raised' issues without intermediate discussion." being done

15:32:10 [aliman]

tomb: jon .. "perhaps give each issue in the tracker it's own wiki page as a child of SkosDesign (or SkosDesign/Issues?) to support the current form of wiki-based discussion???"

15:32:48 [aliman]

jon: suggesting now we sometimes "propose" issue and sometimes "raise" issue meaning same thing. We should just "raise" issue, then decide whether OPEN, RESOLVED ...

15:33:03 [RalphS]

+1 to Jon's suggestion

15:33:19 [aliman]

tomb: no longer talk about "proposing" an issue at all.

15:33:30 [aliman]

bernard: is "resolved" same as "closed"?

15:33:32 [aliman]

ralph: yes.

15:33:49 [aliman]

bernard: lots of homonyms and synonyms, need consistent use of terms.

15:34:45 [aliman]

aliman: been calling alternative fixes "proposals"

15:35:05 [aliman]

ralph: in every case where there is "proposed resolution", always listed in tracker?

15:35:49 [aliman]

aliman: don't think so.

15:36:00 [aliman]

ACTION: tomb to fix wording of IssuesProcess

15:36:15 [JonP]

There's an existing Status vocabulary in Section 2.1 at http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess

15:36:15 [aliman]

q+ to ask about external message

15:37:01 [aliman]

ralph: what is role of SKOS issues sandbox?

15:37:11 [aliman]

aliman: no status, just a sandbox

15:37:30 [aliman]

antoine: action alistair has, to move issues to tracker, is to kill the issues sand box

15:37:33 [aliman]

ralph: agree

15:37:38 [aliman]

tomb: sounds like a good idea

15:37:47 [aliman]

jon: sandbox was an interim measure

15:37:56 [aliman]

antoine: yes

15:38:18 [aliman]

ACTION: alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox

15:38:43 [aliman]

tomb: haven't addressed idea of having wiki page for issues?

15:38:50 [aliman]

ralph: every issue, or when convenient?

15:39:10 [aliman]

jon: every issue should have a wiki page a single place to look.

15:39:52 [aliman]

ralph: then end up with separate places to look, mailing list and wiki. But if wiki is convenient place for owner to maintain a status of issue, resolution proposals.

15:40:02 [aliman]

tomb: link wiki page to tracker issue?

15:40:13 [aliman]

ralph: post a mail message with appropriate keyword.

15:40:25 [aliman]

antoine: can also put reference to wiki page in description of issue.

15:40:37 [aliman]

ralph: can also edit the issue. add note feature as well.

15:41:34 [aliman]

tomb: not clear what we do with the wiki page ... ralph said can edit issue?

15:42:03 [aliman]

ralph: can edit description, can also add note in tracker. Can certainly raise issue first, then post mail message pointing to wiki page.

15:42:33 [aliman]

tomb: should be in guidlines, way to add a wiki page, put it at this particular location, send message with subject line ...

15:43:09 [aliman]

ralph: generalise that. anytime there is aweb page or mail message perhaps in public-esw-thes list, should link it to issue thread by posting mail message, works for anything.

15:43:28 [aliman]

...I'm reluctant to create wiki pages for every issue, might be overkill.

15:43:40 [aliman]

daniel: discussion on mailing list?

15:44:07 [aliman]

ralph: new issue comes up, raise iit in tracker, then use issue number in mail messages.

15:44:09 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess

15:44:18 [aliman]

daniel: how to use tracker?

15:44:23 [aliman]

ralph: see issues process.

15:44:39 [aliman]

tomb: link to tracker page, pointed from issues process page.

15:45:20 [aliman]

... better how to link? this is summary of features, how-to raise issues not there on top tracker page.

15:45:45 [aliman]

... helpful to have one page tutorial on tracker, in order to raise issue in tracker, type this click that etc.

15:46:02 [aliman]

... agree with daniel, would find that helpful.

15:46:51 [aliman]

ralph: custom for each WG to decide how to use tracker. Raised as different from open is unique for this WG, suggest Tom & Daniel we add to our issuesprocess page this tutorial information.

15:47:01 [aliman]

...It's sufficiently custom to our process.

15:47:24 [aliman]

jon: proposing resolutions: formal way of proposing resolutions? place where they should go?

15:47:51 [aliman]

... problem with tracker, if had a wiki page for each issue, would always have a place to write up proposed resolutions.

15:49:00 [aliman]

tomb: proposals can be made to mailing list, but I see problems, with wiki page easier, e.g. ISSUE-33 quite long, examples in boxes, could not do that in email message. Deafulat model these things get proposed, email gets captured in tracker, then find proposals by having helpful subject line.

15:49:15 [aliman]

... jon you're thinking better to have single wiki page?

15:49:49 [aliman]

jon: easier to find if have single index page, here are issues, here is page for each issue, here are proposals, gives structured organisation around what issues are, what proposals are ...

15:50:41 [aliman]

ralph: useful for long and complicated issues, overkill to require for every issue. When we close an issue, nice to have a mail message saying: resolution, where conveninet to fit in email - end of discussion thread in tracker.

15:51:27 [aliman]

tomb: no need to make hard decision right now, nothing to stop creating wiki pages under SkosDesign, signal that using subject line, rely on tracker to pick that up?

15:52:04 [aliman]

... any time we have an important doc to discuss, make clear subject line for tracker. Jon? OK for now?

15:52:06 [aliman]

jon: fine.

15:52:47 [aliman]

tomb: issues process page should emphasise use of subject line, probably try to describe pages needed for overview. Will propose something to mailing list.

15:52:50 [RalphS]

[for example, ISSUE-33 has some "related notes" that were likely entered via the Web interface: http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/33 ]

15:53:05 [Zakim]

aliman, you wanted to ask about external message

15:53:37 [Bern]

ack difference

15:53:43 [Bern]

ack between

15:53:50 [Bern]

ack 'open'

15:53:51 [RalphS]

q+ to ask that proposals be primarily sent by email

15:54:00 [TomB]

ack RalphS

15:54:00 [Zakim]

RalphS, you wanted to ask that proposals be primarily sent by email

15:54:10 [Bern]

ack 'raised'?

15:54:12 [aliman]

e.g. http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics

15:54:33 [aliman]

ralph: prefer to see proposed text by email first, rather than as editor's draft of document first ...

15:55:31 [aliman]

... although editor's can propose a whole section.

15:55:45 [aliman]

... keeping editor's drafts in the wiki is useful.

15:55:53 [TomB]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Concepts

15:56:24 [aliman]

tomb: pasted link to semantics, then link to Semantics/Concepts

15:57:10 [aliman]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/Semantics/Concepts?action=recall&rev=2

15:58:36 [TomB]

Aliman: in SKOS/Semantics, using the "include" feature of MoinMoin...

15:59:04 [aliman]

tomb: at top of hour, helpful discussion, will propose changes to page.

15:59:24 [JonP]

JonP: Many thanks to aliman for being my Huck Finn

15:59:32 [aliman]

tomb: adjourned meeting.

15:59:34 [Zakim]

-Daniel

15:59:35 [Zakim]

-Elisa_Kendall

15:59:37 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:59:37 [seanb]

quit

15:59:38 [Zakim]

-Bernard

15:59:42 [seanb]

seanb has left #swd

15:59:52 [Zakim]

-Sean

16:00:00 [TomB]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

16:00:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-minutes.html TomB

16:00:06 [dlrubin]

dlrubin has left #swd

16:00:07 [Zakim]

-Antoine

16:00:11 [Antoine]

Antoine has left #swd

16:00:14 [RalphS]

zakim, list attendees

16:00:14 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been TomB, Ralph, Elisa_Kendall, JonP, Antoine, +0120682aaaa, Bernard, Daniel, Alistair, Sean, Ben_Adida

16:00:28 [TomB]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

16:00:28 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-minutes.html TomB

16:01:39 [JonP]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/resolutions

16:01:51 [TomB]

zakim, who is on the call?

16:01:51 [Zakim]

On the phone I see TomB, Ralph, JonP, Alistair

16:04:03 [benadida]

benadida has left #SWD

16:04:18 [RalphS]

Tom: suggest adding an 'IssuesProcess' link to the SWD Issue Tracking nav box

16:05:00 [Zakim]

-Alistair

16:05:31 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:05:33 [Zakim]

-JonP

16:05:35 [Zakim]

-TomB

16:05:36 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended

16:05:37 [Zakim]

Attendees were TomB, Ralph, Elisa_Kendall, JonP, Antoine, +0120682aaaa, Bernard, Daniel, Alistair, Sean, Ben_Adida

17:04:51 [edsu2]

edsu2 has joined #swd

17:35:44 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

17:35:44 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #swd

17:35:46 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-actions.rdf :

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06] [1]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-06-41

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10] [2]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-07-26

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting the SKOS semantics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05] [3]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-07-45

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution of issue 33 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action09] [4]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-08-01

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: chairs to open issue 31 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action07] [5]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-08-26

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: open issue 31 in tracker for discussion next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html#action08] [6]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-08-39

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for other options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07] [7]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-10-10

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09] [8]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-11-31

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11] [9]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-12-20

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: tomb to fix wording of IssuesProcess [10]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-36-00

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: alistair to fix wording on skos issues sandbox [11]

17:35:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-swd-irc#T15-38-18