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07:33:21 <karl> agenda+ Introduction by Daniel Glazman
07:34:04 <karl> Meeting: HTML in email Workshop
07:34:15 <karl> Chair: Daniel Glazman
07:34:41 <karl> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/html-mail/#agenda
07:34:48 <karl> Scribe: karl
07:35:06 <karl> agenda+ Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez
07:35:46 <karl> agenda+ Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox 
07:35:54 <karl> agenda
07:35:58 <karl> agenda?
07:36:16 <karl> agenda+ Web Standards: a must for html email
07:37:00 <karl> agenda+ Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients?
07:37:15 <karl> agenda+ HTML email: accessibility
07:37:27 <karl> agenda+ Outspring HTML in Email
07:37:39 <karl> agenda+ brainstorming session
07:38:11 <karl> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
07:38:17 <karl> agenda?
07:39:04 <karl> zakim, take-up agendum 1
07:39:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take-up agendum 1', karl
07:40:09 <karl> zakim, take up agendum 1
07:40:09 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Introduction by Daniel Glazman" taken up [from karl]
07:40:32 <karl> Daniel is introducing the workshop and the outcomes of the workshop
07:40:36 <karl> zakim, take up agendum 2
07:40:36 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez" taken up [from karl]
07:41:28 <karl> Mauro Nunez is addressing a few issues about the Web, and he is introducing the Web.
07:41:49 <karl> s/introducing the Web/introducing the W3C/
07:48:40 <mauro> mauro has joined #html-mail
07:50:44 <karl> zakim, take up agendum 3
07:50:44 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox" taken up [from karl]
07:52:00 <karl>  Jim Kelley, Sarah Davies, e-Dialog are introducing the topics.
07:52:09 <karl> Jim: We are an email marketing company.
07:53:01 <karl> ... the variety of devices and services makes it difficult for us to create effective communications without standards. 
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07:54:21 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:54:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
07:54:33 <karl> karl has changed the topic to: HTML in email workshop - minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html
07:54:50 <mauro> zakim, make logs public-visible
07:54:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public-visible', mauro
07:55:15 <karl> RRSAgent, set logs public-visible
07:56:16 <karl> karl has changed the topic to: HTML in email workshop - raw irc http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-irc, minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html
07:57:52 <karl> Jim: in email, we have around 7s to convince our audience.
07:58:11 <glazou> Jim: readability and access is important
07:58:23 <glazou> Jim: form AND content matter
07:59:12 <karl> sarah: it is a significant challenge without formatting standards.
07:59:24 <glazou> Sarah: design on the rendering side is not guaranteed
07:59:58 <glazou> sarah: we run our code through ReturnPath
08:00:13 <mauro> s/formatting/formalized/
08:01:10 <karl> Jim: ReturnPath is a company.
08:01:28 <glazou> Jim: can return snapshots of a given email in a lot of email clients
08:01:29 <karl> ... http://www.returnpath.com/
08:02:35 <glazou> Jim: we guarantee our format, we use images because of font size issues
08:02:57 <karl> ... but with some security settings, images are disabled.
08:03:23 <karl> ... we do not really know why.
08:03:32 <karl> Chris: I think it is a tracking issue
08:03:46 <karl> ... with images you can know when and where I have accessed the image
08:04:09 <karl> Jim: This is a new challenge which came up in the last few years. 
08:04:56 <karl> ... we try to find new strategies: open this email in a browser, or on mobile devices
08:05:29 <glazou> Ian: flash, video and JS cannot be used safely in email
08:05:58 <karl> ... most people receive pop-up for security
08:06:27 <karl> ... flash and video bring accessibility questions and issues
08:06:50 <karl> ... CSS doesn't have a great support
08:07:00 <karl> ... tables are still a key friend for layout
08:07:11 <karl> ... in HTML email
08:07:29 <karl> Glazou: which CSS are not supported?
08:07:52 <karl> Jim: things like margin for example. We are still forced to use 1px gif spacer.
08:08:35 <karl> Stephane: for example in CSS, starting the line with a dot sends an end of message to the email client.
08:08:41 <karl> ... so we can't use it.
08:08:59 <karl> Glazou: do you think that scoped stylesheets would help.
08:09:37 <karl> ... stylesheets inside a part of the document.
08:09:39 <mauro> participant: it would be an ideal solution, but thre is still a long way to go, we will need the brwosers to support it...
08:10:28 <mauro> s/brwosers/ browsers/
08:10:49 <mauro> s/thre/there/
08:10:53 <karl> Sarah: even animated and background images are affected by the new rules in email clients. 
08:11:10 <karl> Jim: the new release of Outlook is being a major pain
08:11:20 <karl> ... we are going back in times
08:12:25 <karl> Sarah: Our coding techniques for emails today are the ones of… the late 90's for the Web
08:13:06 <karl> Jim: We are forced to design for each type of clients, but it is not very cost effective
08:13:32 <karl> ... it is still challenging to design for many versions.
08:14:00 <karl> Ian: We are not sure how people  are viewing their emails.
08:14:19 <karl> ... we don't know what people are using to read their emails.
08:14:42 <karl> participant: email clients are more difficult than web browser.
08:14:52 <karl> ... http sends information, not email clients.
08:15:45 <karl> Ian: Email rendering engine are not up to what browsers are able to do today
08:16:09 <karl> ... elegant degredation is not possible.
08:16:37 <karl> Jim: we have request from customers like rollovers, flash, etc. 
08:17:14 <karl> ... but we have to explain to them that it is not the Web.
08:18:33 <karl> ... We are trying to keep branding integrity. logo positions, etc. 
08:18:53 <karl> ... Mobile devices are a new challenge.
08:19:12 <karl> ... Trying to look good on so many different devices is difficult. 
08:20:07 <karl> Stephane: do you have an idea of the impact of rich versus plain text email?
08:20:14 <karl> ... do you have stats on that?
08:20:42 <karl> Jim: Most people prefer HTML. For example too many hyperlinks disturb usability.
08:21:29 <karl> ... We are trying to make obvious where to click.
08:21:57 <karl> participant2: 9 on 10 are requesting HTML emails when they have choices
08:22:48 <karl> glazou: I'm a geek. so most of the time, I prefer text email BUT when I accept marketing email
08:22:57 <karl> ... I prefer HTML email, it is more readable
08:23:22 <karl> Jim: knowing who is your audience is better.
08:23:51 <karl> ... now you can have multipart messages, when you send that to mobile devices. 
08:24:02 <karl> ... they will choose text by default.
08:24:21 <karl> ... Text email are abbreviated compared to the html email.
08:25:19 <karl> ... we have more and more boiler plates pushing the real message down, to help people do actions.
08:26:10 <karl> ... developing codes it would be better if it was consistent accross products and platforms.
08:26:39 <karl> ... email and web with common coding practices. 
08:26:51 <karl> ... will help to track email out of the dark ages.
08:27:03 <karl> Questions
08:27:58 <karl> Jim: The new designer coming out from schools do all in CSS. 
08:28:15 <karl> ... but we have to educate them (!) to use table layout for emails.
08:28:28 <karl> (Return to the future)
08:30:12 <karl> glazou: Do you have anti-spam techniques? like for examples for thunderbird
08:30:56 <karl> Ian: not much solutions, but going back to the Web sites, for example
08:31:14 <glazou> s/Do you have/How do you deal with/
08:31:30 <karl> glazou: Do you send forms in email?
08:31:40 <karl> Jim: yes but it is fading. 
08:31:55 <karl> ... before it was working everywhere. Yahoo! strips them.
08:32:39 <karl> ... different browsers deal differently. some strip all the HTML code in between the form tags, some strip the entire form.
08:32:54 <karl> ... some remove all the input elements
08:33:36 <karl> participant: there are two solutions. Going back to the Web site.
08:34:13 <karl> ... you can do only single question form, but you can't do textual input.
08:34:41 <karl> participant2: and it means you have issues with for example, unsubscribing to this letter.
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08:36:11 <karl> participant: Do not forget that the reading area in emails is much smaller than the browser
08:36:31 <karl> ... so you need to send really targeted messages
08:36:31 <mauro> participant: we encourage our clients to be very brief in their emails
08:36:44 <karl> ... stay on what clients want.
08:38:15 <mauro> Jim: this is why the top left corner is very important, then to the right, then across
08:38:17 <karl> participant2: security and lack of support of some elements are really a problem 
08:39:02 <karl> Jim: It would be nice to have the same rendering for every clients
08:41:11 <karl> participant: if we send the images in the email it becomes too heavy.
08:41:21 <karl> (scribe missed a few comments)
08:42:48 <karl> s/participant/Darren/
08:43:00 <karl> s/participant2/antonio/
08:43:20 <mauro> s/antonio/Antonio/
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08:44:19 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:44:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
08:44:47 <mauro> zakim, set logs public-visible
08:44:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'set logs public-visible', mauro
08:44:55 <mauro> zakim, sets logs public-visible
08:44:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'sets logs public-visible', mauro
08:45:09 <mauro> RRSAgent, set logs public-visible
08:46:49 <karl> s/participant2/antonio/g
08:46:53 <karl> s/participant/Darren/g
08:47:05 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:47:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
08:47:49 <karl> COFFEE BREAK
09:09:11 <karl> agenda?
09:09:24 <karl> zakim, close agendum 1
09:09:27 <karl> zakim, close agendum 2
09:09:30 <Zakim> agendum 1, Introduction by Daniel Glazman, closed
09:09:31 <karl> zakim, close agendum 3
09:09:32 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:35 <Zakim> 2. Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez [from karl]
09:09:36 <Zakim> agendum 2, Introduction to W3C by Mauro Nunez, closed
09:09:38 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:39 <karl> zakim, take up agendum 4
09:09:41 <Zakim> 3. Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox [from karl]
09:09:43 <Zakim> agendum 3, Email vs Web - A Tactical + Technical Design Paradox, closed
09:09:45 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:09:46 <Zakim> 4. Web Standards: a must for html email [from karl]
09:09:47 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Web Standards: a must for html email" taken up [from karl]
09:12:51 <karl> Darren: we provide tools for people who want to do email marketing campaigns.
09:14:05 <karl> ... should we ignore email designers ignore standards because of poor email rendering capabilities
09:15:00 <karl> ... reflect brand identity, render the same everywhere, adhere to standards, contain feedback forms, rich experience.
09:15:23 <karl> ... Marketers really want to send emails which matter for the customers.
09:15:34 <karl> ... and stop send massive blind marketing campaigns
09:16:02 <mauro> [and paying for them]
09:16:59 <karl> ... it is important to leave the choice to the users (text versus html)
09:18:15 <karl> ... customers expect that emails sent to web mail clients to look the same than web page, because it is a browser
09:19:01 <karl> ... Outlook 2007 is using the same rendering engine than the word one.
09:21:09 <karl> ... MS always uses word HTML rendering engine to edit things. 
09:21:41 <karl> ... It will stay for a long time.
09:22:09 <karl> ... BUT we can't
09:22:45 <karl> ... (list of all mails clients slides)
09:23:05 <karl> ... emails clients have different renderings
09:23:25 <karl> ... sometimes even in the same company, for example Hotmail + LIve Mail
09:23:50 <mauro> s/LIve/Live/
09:23:51 <karl> ... gmail also has different variants.
09:24:06 <glazou> ... much more mail user agents than browsers on the market
09:24:50 <karl> Kerryn: in gmail one of the issues, is that if you produce incorrect code it will break, and fall apart.
09:26:10 <karl> Darren: there are many mails clients, plus the variations dependent on the system version.
09:26:31 <karl> ... It is *difficult*
09:27:00 <karl> ... we live with it for now, but we need a push for new standard design.
09:28:11 <mauro> s/standard/standards based/
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09:28:54 <michel_v> hello
09:28:58 <karl> ... standard design is now quite difficult
09:29:36 <karl> chris: there are solutions like SVG which would preserve your design, the problem is that there are not necessary implemented.
09:30:16 <mauro> s/necessary/necessarily/
09:30:22 <karl> chris: it would be very useful to have a test suite with specific needs for css
09:30:33 <karl> Darren: it does exist.
09:30:39 <karl> ... someone will talk about it
09:32:01 <karl> ... I have talked about marketers.
09:32:13 <karl> ... but we need to look at what individual people do too.
09:32:34 <karl> ... People want to personalize emails too 
09:33:17 <karl> ... the end user has to be able to go beyong the Comics Sans font
09:33:50 <karl> questions?
09:34:31 <glazou> karl: when you're developing products, do you contact MUA vendors ?
09:34:42 <glazou> Darren: we're not really on this side of things
09:34:53 <glazou> ... we discuss more with ISPs
09:35:22 <glazou> karl: is that difficult to contact MUA vendors ?
09:35:25 <glazou> Darren: yes
09:35:45 <glazou> ... especially about the Outlook 2007 issue with its new rendering engine based on Word
09:36:12 <glazou> participant: the messenging workgroup is the only receptive body
09:36:12 <karl> Antonio: MUA developers are not keen to give what will work against spammers
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09:36:22 <karl> s/participant/Antonio/
09:36:36 <Sam> Hiya
09:36:46 <Sam> glazou: everything ok there so far?
09:37:14 <karl> glazou: do you think it will be possible that groups, companies like yours, would be able to give feedback to standards groups
09:37:15 <glazou> Sam: yep
09:37:32 <glazou> Sam: very good speeches
09:38:19 <karl> Darren: DMA is one of the organizations federating us. 
09:38:25 <Sam> I would have loved to be able to follow FT email talk, as I will soon be appointed as the guy in charge of handicap at ENST, but I have to attend a meeting at 2PM... on handicap
09:38:39 <karl> glazou: we should really get them to participate
09:39:29 <glazou> Sam: BTW, the W3C and myself thank you _a lot_ for your help
09:39:50 <Sam> glazou: you're welcome, it was nothing
09:41:40 <mauro> Darren: email clients change very often as well
09:42:14 <mauro> ... and they don't necessarily announce when a new release is coming
09:42:29 <karl> glazou: there are a lot of issues with HTML, CSS and javascript
09:42:36 <karl> ... from what I heard this morning
09:43:00 <mauro> ... and don't even think about SVG
09:43:18 <karl> kerryn: there are also third parties like spam blockers.
09:43:56 <karl> glazou: I wonder if the result of this workshop should be a whitepaper
09:44:09 <karl> ... identifying all the problems in email clients.
09:45:21 <karl> ... forms are necessary for large amounts of data.
09:45:36 <Sam> karl: it would be great as it would give a roadmap at least to free software clients such as thunderbird
09:45:42 <karl> ... There are things mixing in the email protocol to be more effective as well.
09:46:02 <Sam> karl: and it could be used to populate their issue tracking systems
09:46:15 <karl> Sam, if you use ":" instead "," it will screw my minutes ;)
09:46:23 <karl> I will fix it later :p
09:46:31 <karl> but use comma please
09:46:40 <Sam> Ok :->
09:46:45 <Sam> (oops, sorry about that)
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09:47:07 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:47:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
09:47:52 <mauro> Darren: the gap between what you can do in the Web and what you can do in email is getting larger and larger
09:47:53 <karl> glazou: what kind of authoring tools?
09:48:23 <karl> Darren: wysiwyg tool for example. proprietary stuff sometimes.
09:49:18 <karl> ... one of our html editor has not been updated for the last 3 years.
09:49:28 <karl> ... CSS is useless for us in the context now.
09:50:20 <karl> glazou: content editors seem to not be useful for this type of market
09:51:15 <karl> LUNCH BREAK
09:51:33 <karl> Zakim, close agendum 4
09:51:33 <Zakim> agendum 4, Web Standards: a must for html email, closed
09:51:34 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:51:35 <Zakim> 5. Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients? [from karl]
09:52:01 <karl> we are leaving the room. 
09:52:49 <karl> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:52:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
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10:09:20 <Davel_x> hi !
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12:11:08 <michel_v> welcome back karl
12:11:18 <karl> agenda?
12:11:22 <karl> hello michel_v 
12:11:32 <michel_v> (did julie kiss you?)
12:11:37 <karl> zakim, take up agendum 6
12:11:37 <Zakim> agendum 6. "HTML email: accessibility" taken up [from karl]
12:11:55 <karl> Stephane Deschamps introducing his talk 
12:12:49 <karl> Stephane: there are many people inside the company who are blind. So we need accessibility outside and inside the company (France Telecom)
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12:13:58 <karl> ... most people sending html emails through our services are not HTML designers but marketers.
12:14:14 <karl> ... saying to them that standards are good is ok, but addressed to the wrong target
12:15:50 <karl> ... when you do a bad email newsletter which is not accessible and redirect to a Web site 
12:16:01 <karl> ... and is not accessible, you loose on both sides
12:16:25 <karl> ... "Open our mind, close your eyes". 
12:17:03 <karl> ... Accessibility is a very important topic. 
12:17:20 <karl> ... We don't read text, we scan it.
12:17:30 <karl> ... I will show you screen reader.
12:17:38 <karl> ... like jaws
12:18:14 <karl> ... There are Screen readers for emails and some for Web pages.
12:18:48 <karl> ... but sometimes the association of both is not covered.
12:19:08 <karl> ... In HTML email, there are big issues for accessibility
12:19:18 <karl> ... title for example not used.
12:20:45 <karl> ... Jaws start to know in Web pages how to compute table layout.
12:21:28 <karl> ... font resizing works  in Outlook and Thunderbird. (don't know for Opera).
12:21:42 <karl> ... Our customers are not skilled engineers.
12:22:07 <karl> ... So most of the time we test only in the main products. 
12:22:22 <karl> ... Languages are a big issue.
12:22:42 <karl> (Stephane launching a demo of Jaws)
12:23:06 <karl> ... For example, doesn't know on an email what is a language.
12:23:39 <karl> (Example of French pronunciation on an English mail)
12:24:15 <karl> ... switching languages is a pain. 
12:24:28 <karl> ... You don't know before the language of your email.
12:24:47 <karl> ... so in HTML email having the language information should be done in the mail client.
12:25:02 <karl> ... when writing emails you should be able to send the lang attribute
12:25:11 <karl> ... so jaws will know
12:25:47 <karl> ... and will switch from one language to the other.
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12:28:34 <karl> someone: How many words does it take for an automate to switch languages
12:28:56 <karl> stephane: AI could do many things, but practically it doesn't do.
12:29:46 <karl> Marie: switching languages in the page would be too difficult.
12:31:10 <karl> Stephane: alt text saves markerting people all the time. When doing a newsletter with images, having alt helps to improve the access to the content.
12:31:37 <karl> ... You can enjoy the whole content, even if images are blocked by the mail clients.
12:31:47 <karl> ... and it is usable with Jaws
12:31:48 <yann2> [thanks for the retranscription]
12:31:58 <mauro> s/someone/Cote/
12:33:00 <karl> Stephane: Having alt in HTML emails make alternative text plain email not necessary, BUT
12:33:19 <karl> ... from an accessibility point of view alt text in HTML email is better than plain text with URIs
12:34:17 <karl> ... (replying to Kerryn) You can't guess if I'm blind in advance.
12:35:10 <karl> Chris: There are two schools of thought on what should be alt text.
12:35:47 <karl> ... It is either a descriptive text on what is on the page, or it is an equivalent going into the flow of the text.
12:36:42 <karl> Marie: There is another issue in France, Braillenet says that the text has to be less than 60 characters. 
12:37:43 <karl> Stephane: Some rules have to be more flexible. Stay reasonable. If the text is too long you will loose the context.
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12:37:52 <karl> s/Braillenet/accessiweb/
12:38:32 <karl> Chris: there is an issue with languages,. 60 characters doesn't make sense in some languages.
12:38:58 <karl> Stephane: Yes and sometimes there are label like companies names or organization which are longger.
12:39:04 <karl> s/longger/longer
12:39:12 <karl> s/longger/longer/
12:39:25 <karl> Stephane: Stay reasonable. 
12:39:57 <karl> ... Jaws supports now longdesc. 
12:40:31 <karl> Chris: you will use it to make very descriptive text about the image.
12:41:04 <mauro> s/label/labels/
12:41:28 <karl> ... at the start, alt text should have never been an attribute. It is in HTML, because Marc Andreessen pushed it in Mosaic.
12:41:43 <glazou> glazou: should have been content fallback
12:41:45 <karl> ... but we can't put markup in attributes. It should be a fallback content.
12:41:58 <mauro> s/companies names or organization/company or organization names/
12:42:08 <karl> s/It should be a fallback content.//
12:42:32 <karl> (chris telling about the history of the development of mosaic)
12:44:50 <karl> Stephane: if object tag was generalized instead of img, we would real fallback content and better accessibility
12:45:27 <karl> (showing an example of page without alt text, and images not loaded)
12:45:41 <karl> ... even for users who are not blind it is useful.
12:46:22 <karl> ... proposition: make the alt attribute mandatory in emails
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12:48:57 <karl> karl: why not pushing for object more than alt attributes.
12:49:31 <karl> stephane: maybe the pragmatic guy in me. But yes it might be a good idea. We have to find an editor who is willing to do that
12:49:50 <karl> glazou: One of the problems is to find the right UI paradigm.
12:50:17 <karl> ... for editing the content.
12:51:30 <karl> Adrien: in France, there is a big gap between web designers and html coders.
12:51:41 <karl> ... many web designers don't know about coding. 
12:52:04 <karl> ... and they don't know about the issues of accessibility, and they are hard to convince.
12:52:36 <karl> Stephane: It is another reason why it shoud be integrated in wysiwyg tools for non specialists. 
12:52:40 <karl> ... like marketers. 
12:53:20 <karl> Jim: We have seen email clients, suppressing things for security issues.
12:54:20 <karl> ... they strip alt tags.
12:54:24 <glazou> sam
12:54:28 <glazou> Sam: ping
12:54:36 <karl> Darren: Same for some webmails
12:55:48 <karl> Antonio: when outlook suppresses images, and it leaves the table with alt text, being not wrapped, the people receive a long bar.
12:55:56 <karl> ... usability problem.
12:56:12 <karl> Stephane: 
12:56:26 <karl> Stephane:  conlcusionx
12:56:30 <karl> QUESTION
12:57:11 <mauro> s/conlcusionx/conclusion/
12:57:21 <karl> Stephane: There are some readers like braille devices which will tell you if it's bold or not.
12:57:52 <lgloaguen> (Hi Glazou)
12:58:26 <karl> Jim: There are issues with b, i and strong, em. With words being shouted all the time.
12:58:46 <karl> Stephane: we had the same discussion for SPIP, French CMS.
12:59:10 <karl> ... the consensus in the end was that b and strong are different.
13:00:22 <karl> ... Some people might not know how to use it. 
13:01:15 <karl> Jim: would you recommend marketers to test through jaws
13:01:27 <karl> Stephane: Definitely. That would be a good test.
13:02:39 <karl> karl: how do you know how to use jaws the right way?
13:03:09 <karl> Stephane: yes I learn a lot with friends. But yes indeed, you need to learn how to use it.
13:03:28 <karl> ... the real test is to unplug your screen and use jaws
13:03:40 <karl> ... and hate yourself seeing how bad you did your homework
13:04:40 <karl> ... You don't know until you really put yourself in a "blind" context.
13:06:02 <karl> ... Chris from Yahoo! told us, we don't have data on how disable people use the Web at large.
13:07:00 <karl> ... "Don't make me think" book. How do you expect to help people who are disable because they have developed skills because of their disability.
13:07:51 <karl> ... Focus on really writing clear text and content, more than creating complicated accessibility things.  
13:08:04 <karl> (karl thinks that Stephane should review this)
13:08:24 <karl> (I may have given a bad transcription of his final thoughts)
13:08:33 <karl> agenda?
13:08:51 <karl> sakim, close agendum 5
13:08:56 <karl> zakim, close agendum 5
13:08:56 <Zakim> agendum 5, Should email designers/developers ignore standards because of poor rendering in email clients?, closed
13:08:58 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:08:58 <karl> zakim, close agendum 6
13:08:59 <Zakim> 6. HTML email: accessibility [from karl]
13:09:00 <Zakim> agendum 6, HTML email: accessibility, closed
13:09:01 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:09:02 <Zakim> 7. Outspring HTML in Email [from karl]
13:09:08 <karl> zakim, take up agendum 7
13:09:08 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Outspring HTML in Email" taken up [from karl]
13:09:38 <karl> Daniel Glazman is presenting the paper of Pierre Saslawsky
13:10:46 <karl> glazou: Pierre is in favor of templating system. 
13:11:17 <karl> ... to focus on content and don't have to take care about the technical design of the document.
13:11:28 <karl> ... it would allow letterheads for example.
13:11:57 <karl> ... Think about the 80's when people started to write postal mails with fancy papers. 
13:12:19 <karl> ... Building your own templates is very difficult for the common users.
13:12:45 <karl> ... In blogs there are a lot of choices of templates, with one button click for choosing the template.
13:12:52 <karl> ... It should be the same for emails.
13:13:00 <karl> ... It doesn't solve all problems.
13:13:12 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:13:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
13:14:39 <karl> ... If email clients strip part of the HTML like checkbox. Then it creates issues for the users and you have to rely on tricks.
13:15:08 <karl> ... In addition, You should be able to "tag" emails. 
13:15:42 <karl> ... Pierre is proposing either in the protocols of the email or in a defined grammar in the content. 
13:15:55 <karl> ... Mail is far behind the web in terms of technology.
13:16:22 <karl> ... UI is very simplistic, too simplistic.
13:17:10 <karl> ... We can't improve the situation without bringing feedback to email consortium like IMC
13:17:51 <karl> ... Some browser vendors are very good at integrating feedback from users. Mail clients not that much.
13:18:12 <mauro> Present: Kerryn Sues, Karl Dubost, Mauro Nunez, Stephane Deschamps, Jeremie Pattonier, Julien Vellinger, Antonio Ferrara, Adrien Leygues, Darren Rawlings, Martin Waschbusch, Jean-Marc Bassin, Sylvain Côte, Marie Destandan, Julie Landry, Nicolas Naparty, Chris Lilley
13:18:20 <karl> ... The number one for putting internet in a company is email. It is a major tool for people
13:18:51 <karl> ... Glazou, I think it is all I can say from the position paper of Pierre 
13:19:03 <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:19:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html mauro
13:19:20 <karl> The paper is available at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-mail/2007Apr/att-0016/Outspring-HTML-in-Email.html
13:19:44 <karl> QUESTIONS
13:19:44 <karl> Adrien: Could you explain a bit more the Template thing?
13:20:46 <karl> glazou: I would like to be able to send emails with a specific template so I communicate not only the content but the visual identity of the company, organization, person.
13:22:01 <karl> ... a blog entry consists of title, content, etc. with specific ids. and you could apply the templates scoping the ids.
13:23:19 <karl> someone2: I doubt that such system would be possible with the current security practices from clients.
13:23:51 <karl> chris: You could have a cache system with preferences without having to go online each time, to download the template.
13:24:28 <karl> glazou: template could be downloaded on choice like for images in mail clients now.
13:24:51 <karl> ... it is a pretty good idea. there are security issues, sure. but that might be possible.
13:25:31 <karl> Darren: how do you create the trusting mechanism?
13:25:52 <karl> Chris: You would have to trust the original sender.
13:26:11 <karl> glazou: it is the same kind of issues with human relationships.
13:26:40 <karl> Stephane: but first mail could corrupt my machine.
13:26:56 <karl> glazou: the policy could be never download automatically at the start
13:29:04 <karl> Darren: I do not know if it would possible to implement without having a 3rd implementation text, multipart, and then this new technique
13:29:20 <karl> ... because you can't ignore the rest of implementations out there
13:30:20 <karl> (daniel is introducing overlays to explain something similar about templates)
13:31:09 <mauro> s/Côte/Cote/
13:32:59 <karl> Côte: I'm not convinced, people are focusing on contents. So is it really useful?
13:33:34 <karl> glazou: young people use templates for editing html email 
13:35:41 <karl> ... in blogs, there is not only content. There is presentation too. blogrolls
13:36:13 <karl> karl: there is even a better example. MySpace is an online scrapbook, people putting images, text with colors, it's even too limited.
13:36:27 <karl> Chris: (thinking loudly SVG!)
13:36:35 <karl> (laugh in the room)
13:37:30 <karl> glazou: doctors now can send data with an email like system (with XML)
13:38:02 <karl> ... but there is missing stuff. You need XSLT which is overkill.  
13:38:10 <karl> ... there are things much simpler.
13:38:40 <karl> ... The difference in printing is even harder.
13:38:49 <karl> (side discussions about printing)
13:39:45 <karl> agenda?
13:39:53 <karl> zakim, close agendum 7
13:39:53 <Zakim> agendum 7, Outspring HTML in Email, closed
13:39:54 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
13:39:55 <Zakim> 8. brainstorming session [from karl]
13:39:57 <karl> BREAK SESSION
13:40:19 <karl> (we will be back in a few minutes for brainstorming and the outcomes of this workshop)
13:41:42 <glazou> lgloaguen: on a lu ton twitter
13:42:55 <karl> http://www.xavierfrenette.com/articles/css-support-in-webmail/
13:43:23 <karl> http://www.campaignmonitor.com/blog/archives/2006/03/a_guide_to_css_support_in_emai.html
13:43:35 <karl> http://www.campaignmonitor.com/blog/archives/2007/04/a_guide_to_css_support_in_emai_2.html
13:43:54 <karl> http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=StyleInEmail
13:44:14 <karl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_e-mail_clients#Features
13:44:32 <karl> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338200.aspx
13:44:51 <karl> http://www.campaignmonitor.com/blog/archives/2005/08/optimizing_css_1.html
13:45:14 <karl> http://alistapart.com/articles/cssemail
13:45:25 <karl> Some references for the break :p
13:45:44 <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:45:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
13:47:38 <lgloaguen> glazou: tu as vu mon msg a l'intention de Stephane Deschamps?
13:48:30 <glazou> oui
13:48:38 <glazou> lgloaguen: j'ai eu ma bise ce matin
13:48:52 <lgloaguen> lucky boy
13:49:13 <glazou> :)
13:50:51 <lgloaguen> I hope she didn't forget Karl... Don't want any jealousy.
14:00:14 <karl> back for the brainstorming
14:00:46 <stephane_deschamp> stephane_deschamp has joined #html-mail
14:00:50 <stephane_deschamp> hi all
14:01:10 <karl> glazou: are you mostly happy with tables?
14:01:42 <karl> Darren: you do not have freedom of layout, because CSS implementations are not good.
14:01:42 <s_deschamps> (can't see you, you're on thre wrong eye ;)
14:02:04 <karl> Jim: Tables are great, but CSS is a lot more powerful.
14:02:23 <karl> glazou: mobile devices?
14:02:37 <karl> Jim: there is a lot we could do, but support is not good.
14:03:05 <karl> ... we could do a lot better with accessibility 
14:04:14 <karl> Antonio: cell tables is difficult. you want to be more independent.
14:05:28 <karl> Kerryn: sometimes we need 6 nested tables to achieve the good effect.
14:05:37 <karl> glazou: what about tbody?
14:06:01 <karl> Darren: You don't want to use tbody, because spamassassin gives it a score
14:06:11 <s_deschamps> that's crazy: the more you strive for right content, the more you attract the attention of spam assassin - crazy
14:06:50 <karl> glazou: why?
14:07:09 <karl> Darren: I guess because of heuristics around hand coding/wysiwyg coding
14:07:29 <karl> chris telling crazy story about implementations
14:08:28 <karl> glazou: we are developing in css 3 bacground images resizing.
14:08:45 <karl> ... but if it is stripped then it is a kind of useless
14:09:12 <karl> chris: We have to give implementers good reasons to improve and introduce competitions
14:09:48 <karl> Jim: with outlook 2007, we have been pushed back to old years
14:11:37 <karl> chris: marketing emails and person to person offer a different paradigm of discussions
14:11:44 <karl> ... and implementations.
14:12:06 <karl> I'm starting to be low
14:12:14 <karl> on energy
14:13:15 <mauro> NN: this situation varies from browser to browser
14:13:24 <JulienW> very good job karl
14:13:55 <s_deschamps> (that karl he's so lazy)
14:13:57 <s_deschamps> :)
14:14:17 <mauro> ... users are not interested on different amongs emails
14:14:29 <s_deschamps> actually this morning karl was leaning on his computer and I hadn't realized he was still logging - I thought jetlag had hit him :)
14:14:55 <mauro> s/different/differences/
14:16:18 <s_deschamps> mauro: Sylvain said that even if your email client is not THunderbird, he won't persuade you to switch because the gain will not be as big as switcihin from [anybrowser] to Firefox
14:16:26 <s_deschamps> (roughly)
14:18:31 <mauro> s/NN/Sylvain/
14:19:10 <mauro> [discussion about improving rendering of emails]
14:21:31 <mauro> glazou: presents an answer from Scott, wrt HTML authoring, specific engine, liomited set of features, interaction with CSS, etc.
14:21:45 <mauro> s/liomited/limited/
14:23:49 <mauro> scott wants to see more semantic elements,and sharing and standasrdisation of classes rather than ad-hoc use
14:24:12 <mauro> blogging comment systems and tyhreaded e,mailresponses have a lot in common
14:25:24 <mauro> most corporate sites email clients do not deal with html as their main task. its incidental, tacked onto calendar or groupware functions. so it does not evolve
14:26:08 <s_deschamps> s/html/email/
14:26:55 <Chris> lotus notes is a huge hypercard like systenm, with email grafted on and then html grafted on too
14:28:51 <Chris> many concerns about Outlook 2007 which has switched to using the word engine to render html instead of the trident/ie engine
14:29:29 <Chris> question if the webmail clients are more actively developed than the pure email clients
14:30:12 <Chris> lack of scoped stylesheets measns that css is often disabled to prevent phishing. 
14:30:25 <Chris> many isps strip out things from html email, such as forms
14:31:26 <Chris> scoped stylesheets in in html5, first child of any element,and a scoped attr to limit its scope
14:31:58 <Chris> and it blocks positioning from being outside the parent
14:32:25 <Chris> not difficult to implement either. most browsers deal with style in the body anyway
14:33:27 <Chris> trivial to implement, create an id on the parent and prepend an id selector to the rules
14:34:32 <Chris> scoped stylesheets can be trusted more
14:35:03 <Chris> avoids malicious playing with the chrome, phishing, trapping user input
14:35:29 <Voulf> Voulf has joined #html-mail
14:35:43 <Voulf> Hi, Adrien Leygues over ther.
14:36:19 <Chris> getting the online email tools to change first might get the others to follow
14:36:21 <JulienW> Hi adrien
14:36:52 <Chris> going for the myspace audience
14:37:07 <Chris> daniel suggests a whitepaper - general agreement
14:37:31 <Chris> most are subscribed to the masil list; daniel suggests we keep using it
14:38:40 <Chris> daniel asks for help to make test reports;test suit nd implementation report. also, explain if there is a fallback or not. things that may interest the press. goal is to raise awareness of how bad it is out there and provide impetus to change
14:40:11 <Chris> show how bad it is but also how little it is to improve
14:41:05 <Chris> patches may allow field upgrades once the need is appartent
14:41:33 <Chris> perhaps a few well-chosen features at first - don't swamp with challenges. prioritize
14:42:49 <Chris> daniel explains about WASP and how they got the attention of the press. few articles, but with a large impact
14:44:04 <s_deschamps> btw I'm in the WASP ILG, if it can help
14:45:01 <s_deschamps> I'll send my presentation as PDF to whom?
14:45:20 <s_deschamps> (oh, I've had the answer now)
14:45:27 <s_deschamps> wow, real-life IRCing :)
14:46:45 <aLeygues>  /clap
14:46:51 <karl> Thank you to Daniel for organizing the Workshop
14:47:00 <karl> and Thank you to ENST for the hosting
14:47:23 <Chris> ENST provided facilities, AV support, very good job
14:47:26 <karl> RRSAgent, create minutes
14:47:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/24-html-mail-minutes.html karl
14:47:40 <Chris> zakim, list participants
14:47:40 <Zakim> sorry, Chris, I don't know what conference this is
14:47:48 <Chris> zakim you are a dunce sometimes
14:47:52 <karl> zakim, bye
14:47:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-mail
14:48:02 <karl> RRSAgent, bye
14:48:02 <RRSAgent> I see no action items