IRC log of swd on 2007-05-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:56:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc
14:56:08 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
14:56:08 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T14-56-08
14:56:18 [TomB]
zakim, this will be swd
14:56:18 [Zakim]
ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
14:56:52 [TomB]
Meeting: SWD WG
14:56:55 [TomB]
Chair: Tom
14:57:28 [TomB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0033.html
14:57:55 [TomB]
Agenda+ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0034.html
14:58:37 [Zakim]
-??P10
14:58:39 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
14:58:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were
14:59:35 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started
14:59:43 [Zakim]
+??P17
15:00:00 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
15:00:06 [Zakim]
+??P21
15:00:21 [vit]
vit has joined #swd
15:00:26 [Bern]
Bern has joined #swd
15:00:50 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
15:00:57 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
15:00:57 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-00-57
15:01:01 [TomB]
zakim, this will be swd
15:01:01 [Zakim]
ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
15:01:04 [Zakim]
+ +0120682aaaa
15:01:23 [Bern]
zakim, +0120682aaaa is me
15:01:23 [Zakim]
+Bern; got it
15:01:25 [TomB]
Meeting: SWD WG
15:01:27 [TomB]
Chair: Tom
15:01:31 [TomB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0033.html
15:01:39 [TomB]
Agenda+ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007May/0034.html
15:01:49 [Antoine]
Antoine has joined #swd
15:02:03 [TomB]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html
15:02:12 [Zakim]
+??P34
15:02:19 [berrueta]
zakim, ??P34 is me
15:02:24 [Zakim]
+berrueta; got it
15:02:27 [Bern]
Scribe: Bern
15:02:47 [TomB]
Regrets: Sean, Ralph, Jon, Michael
15:02:49 [Zakim]
+??P36
15:02:52 [Bern]
Scribenick: Bern
15:03:02 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:03:48 [Zakim]
+??P40
15:04:20 [Zakim]
+??P41
15:04:43 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has joined #swd
15:05:27 [Zakim]
-antoine
15:05:56 [Bern]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:05:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB, Vit, Bern, berrueta, aliman, ??P40
15:06:20 [aliman]
zakim, who is talking?
15:06:30 [Zakim]
aliman, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Vit (65%), ??P40 (61%)
15:06:33 [Zakim]
+??P29
15:06:43 [TomB]
zakim, ??P40 is Daniel
15:06:43 [Zakim]
+Daniel; got it
15:06:58 [Zakim]
-??P29
15:07:28 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.420.aabb
15:08:33 [Bern]
Topic: admin
15:08:56 [Bern]
TomB: propose we accept minutes of 15th May telecon
15:09:08 [Bern]
...been through minutes and look OK to me
15:09:20 [Bern]
Resolved: accept minutes of 15th May meeting
15:09:43 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/f2f3poll1/
15:10:02 [Bern]
ACTION: TomB to start questionnaire on date for f2f -- options are weeks of Nov 4 and Nov 11
15:10:06 [Bern]
--done
15:10:17 [Bern]
Topic: SKOS
15:11:08 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
15:11:12 [TomB]
ACTION: Daniel to send messages to thesaurus list, Semantic Web Interest, ... requesting feedback on the new SKOS use cases document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:11:14 [TomB]
--done
15:11:28 [TomB]
ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:11:31 [TomB]
--continues
15:11:53 [TomB]
ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting the SKOS semantics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05]
15:11:56 [TomB]
--continues
15:12:08 [TomB]
ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:12:10 [TomB]
--continues
15:12:26 [TomB]
ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for other options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07]
15:12:37 [TomB]
--continues
15:12:42 [Bern]
TomB: was talking with Guus just before the call
15:13:04 [Bern]
TomB: expects to see output from Guus in next few days
15:13:12 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/31
15:13:24 [Bern]
...Alistair suggests we open basic lexical label sematics
15:13:41 [Bern]
...suggest we open it at same time as issue 26
15:14:01 [Bern]
ACTION: chairs to open issue 31
15:14:39 [Bern]
Alistair: doesn't this issue need an owner?
15:14:54 [Bern]
...meant to have its status as open, so that it's on the agenda
15:15:23 [Bern]
TomB: asks for volunteer to have owner of the issue?
15:15:42 [Bern]
Alistair: I'm willing if no one is desperately keen
15:16:05 [Bern]
TomB: are there any other steps that need to be taken?
15:16:29 [Bern]
Alistair: change the status in the tracker
15:16:53 [Bern]
... I'll do that
15:17:06 [Bern]
ACTION: open issue 31 in tracker for discussion next week
15:17:22 [Bern]
TomB: issue 33--grouping constructs
15:17:24 [aliman]
--done
15:17:35 [Bern]
...we had discussion last week, but now a 3rd proposal from Antione
15:18:03 [Bern]
...goal of discussion today is to see if we have a rough concensus so that we can move towards having a proposal
15:18:22 [Bern]
... to vote on in next week's call. Guus felt that we should try to move this forward
15:18:31 [Bern]
...to some sort of resolution.
15:18:46 [Antoine]
zakim, unmute me
15:18:46 [Zakim]
Antoine should no longer be muted
15:18:48 [Bern]
...calls on Antione to put forward proposal 3.
15:19:10 [Bern]
Antione: my proposal was based on the diagnosis that the issue comes from
15:19:26 [Bern]
...fact that two axioms are contradictory
15:20:29 [Bern]
...I suggested to release the axioms that define the domain and range of the relationships
15:20:45 [Bern]
...and to introduce a new class that would be a superclass of concept and collection
15:21:42 [aliman]
bernard: familiar object-oriented pattern
15:22:03 [aliman]
... gang of four pattern, have a sub-class of singular or plural
15:22:14 [aliman]
... e.g. common pattern in widgetry ...
15:23:04 [aliman]
... called composite pattern ... sub-class which is also a component and a collection of components ...
15:23:57 [aliman]
http://www.exciton.cs.rice.edu/JavaResources/DesignPatterns/composite.htm
15:24:43 [Bern]
Alistair: number of issues with this proposal wrt semantic relationships
15:25:14 [Bern]
...in the current guide there's a rule called "collectable properties" which was supposed to
15:25:30 [Bern]
...enable your to infer the direct semantic relationship links
15:25:55 [Bern]
...other issues are that if you are doing query expansion, when you have
15:26:21 [Bern]
...a collectin that has a node in the expansion graph, so you can artificially include
15:26:24 [TomB]
[collectable properties http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/#seccollectable]
15:26:38 [Bern]
...extra distance between the concepts
15:26:54 [Bern]
...also you couldn't write an application that has no knowledge of collections
15:27:09 [Bern]
...every application would have to have knowledge of collections
15:27:29 [Bern]
...different to minimal fixed proposal, which means you don't need any inference rule
15:27:40 [Bern]
...and doesn't need any knowledge of collections
15:28:35 [Bern]
Bernard: what's significance of not knowing about collections?
15:28:36 [TomB]
Bernard: what is the advantage of not having any knowledge of collections?
15:29:01 [Bern]
Alistair: really simple query expansion doesn't need any collection stuff but guaranteed to work
15:29:06 [Bern]
...with SKOS data
15:29:33 [Bern]
...For example, if you take a look at the XXXX metadata repository, there is no
15:29:54 [Bern]
...collection stuff, but it is nevertheless a very useful platform. If we went for
15:30:15 [Bern]
...Antione's proposal then an application like that would have to implement the collection
15:30:29 [aliman]
s/XXXX/NSDL/
15:30:36 [Bern]
...stuff--it wouldn't work without it.
15:31:05 [Bern]
TomB: in W3C practice the proposal that has the least impact on an existing spec is the one that gets favoured
15:31:35 [Bern]
...In last week's discussion it seemed to me that we were leaning towards the
15:31:48 [Bern]
...minimal fixed proposal. Does anyone want to add to that?
15:32:14 [Bern]
Alistair: I agree with what Guus said. I like the minimal fixed proposal because it does
15:32:33 [Bern]
...the smallest fix and takes an incremental approach. We can take the approach
15:32:53 [Bern]
...and then explore issues with it. If there's a problem with it, then we can take a look
15:33:14 [Bern]
...at other proposals (such as the relaxing domain/range or the Bundle)
15:33:18 [TomB]
+1 Alistair and Guus favoring Minimal Fix
15:33:50 [Bern]
Antione: my worry is that in most of the situations where we have seen collections
15:34:06 [Bern]
...the collections are included in the hierarchy.
15:35:21 [Bern]
Alistair: there's a difference between a conceptual hierarchy and a systematic display
15:35:45 [Bern]
...the latter is a visual arrangement of terms, not really part of what standards people
15:36:11 [Bern]
would call a conceptual hierarchy.
15:36:40 [Bern]
...node labels are introduced as a display convenience.
15:37:05 [Bern]
...In the minimal fixed proposal, let's say you're generating a systematic display
15:37:31 [Bern]
such as kinds of milk. In a minimal fix, you declare a concept of milk, then goat's
15:37:54 [Bern]
...milk, cow's milk and express narrower terms between them. Then itroducce a collection
15:38:21 [Bern]
...say "milk by source animal". An application that gets that data can ignore the
15:38:42 [Bern]
...collection data and just display the relationships between kinds of milk.
15:39:06 [Bern]
...whereas an application that understands collections can ask if (say) cow's milk
15:39:17 [Bern]
...a member of any collections?
15:39:48 [Bern]
...and then recurse upwards, to see if the "milk by source animal" collection is also in a collection?
15:40:20 [Bern]
Daniel: I'm confused by what's asserted by collection membership and the siblings of a taxonomy
15:41:07 [Bern]
Alistair: collections are not just siblings. You could have "milk by source animal", and "milk by fat content"
15:41:35 [Bern]
...if you're actually thinking about classes, then "milk by source animal" is not really a class.
15:42:04 [Bern]
...in the thesaurus community, "milk by source animal" is not a concept, it's a node label
15:42:31 [Bern]
Daniel: but the ontology community wouldn't use this approach.
15:43:24 [Bern]
Alistair: the dependency of how we model this and how we migrate from thesaurus to ontologies
15:43:50 [Bern]
...the primary concern for SKOS is to make sure that it is sufficient to represent thesauri and classification schemes
15:44:14 [Bern]
...so that existing thesauri and classification schemes can continue to have the features
15:44:21 [Bern]
...they're used to.
15:44:36 [Bern]
Daniel: we also have to do the same from an ontology-oriented perspective
15:45:19 [Bern]
Alistair: I am aware of Antione's point about the difficulty of implementing the algorithm
15:45:50 [Bern]
...I explain the algorithm to follow the narrower links, then recursive collection-membership relationships
15:46:24 [Bern]
...there's another standardisation group (in the UK) that's trying to write down a data model (in UML) for thesauri
15:46:51 [Bern]
...this group is having a big discussion about you handle collections (aka Arrays)
15:47:05 [Bern]
Daniel: anticipate resolution from this group?
15:47:20 [Bern]
Alistair: they're influenced by how SKOS does it.
15:48:06 [Bern]
...they're not hardcore data modellers.
15:48:19 [Bern]
...we'd have to present it in UML for them to understand.
15:48:33 [Bern]
Daniel: that might be useful for us to present it anyhow.
15:49:06 [Bern]
Alistair: because this group is doing it as a closed group it's not that public
15:49:25 [Bern]
Daniel: so it presents some interesting questions about how to map from SKOS to their data model
15:49:41 [Bern]
Alistair: I made a suggestion. Here's the link
15:49:53 [aliman]
http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/blogs/alistair/archives/41 -> Initial suggestion of data model for thesauri for BS8723
15:50:14 [Bern]
...the idea that I had was that we go with the minimal fixed proposal for now
15:50:30 [Bern]
...which forces me to expand on the algorithm
15:50:41 [TomB]
+1 to go with Minimal Fix
15:50:59 [Bern]
...and if it's too complication then we can change our minds. It's not the final word.
15:51:29 [Bern]
TomB: does anyone disagree with minimal fix?
15:51:44 [Bern]
Daniel: concern that we also need to address from ontology world
15:51:59 [Bern]
Alistair: need use cases to understand this better
15:52:20 [Bern]
TomB: sounds like we're moving to minimal fix with reservation that we need to understand
15:52:33 [Bern]
...how ontologies map to thesauri.
15:52:48 [Bern]
...so could we put minimal fix on agenda for next week.
15:53:04 [Bern]
Alistair: yes, then we could resolve or not next week
15:53:38 [Bern]
ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution
15:53:50 [Bern]
TOmb: to be talked about next week
15:54:06 [aliman]
s/resolution/resolution of issue 33/
15:54:08 [Bern]
...propose SKOS issue resolution process to next week
15:54:31 [TomB]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/IssuesProcess
15:54:46 [Bern]
...also want to make sure that the document on the issues process actually corrresponds to the way we are doing things
15:55:09 [Bern]
...find it slightly confusing about how to see issues that are closed
15:55:45 [Antoine]
... beware of not losing it!
15:55:46 [Bern]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:55:52 [Bern]
--continues
15:56:02 [Bern]
ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11]
15:56:07 [Bern]
---continues
15:56:57 [Zakim]
-TomB
15:56:59 [Zakim]
-Daniel
15:57:02 [Zakim]
-aliman
15:57:02 [Zakim]
-Antoine
15:57:05 [Antoine]
Antoine has left #swd
15:57:08 [Bern]
adjourned
15:57:21 [Bern]
zakim, list attendees
15:57:21 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Bern, berrueta, aliman, TomB, Vit, antoine, Daniel, +31.20.420.aabb
15:57:38 [Zakim]
-berrueta
15:57:44 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has left #swd
15:57:57 [Bern]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:57:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-minutes.html Bern
15:58:21 [Bern]
zakim, bye
15:58:21 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Bern, berrueta, aliman, TomB, Vit, antoine, Daniel, +31.20.420.aabb
15:58:21 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd
15:58:31 [Bern]
rrsagent, bye
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-actions.rdf :
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: TomB to start questionnaire on date for f2f -- options are weeks of Nov 4 and Nov 11 [1]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-10-02
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Daniel to send messages to thesaurus list, Semantic Web Interest, ... requesting feedback on the new SKOS use cases document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action01] [2]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-11-12
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jon and Alistair: Move SKOS issues over from Sandbox to Tracker on an ongoing basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/08-swd-minutes.html#action10] [3]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-11-28
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sean to look at the test environment supporting the SKOS semantics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action05] [4]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-11-53
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair will look at raising the examples from the issues to test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/15-swd-minutes.html#action06] [5]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-12-08
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus revise his ISSUE-26 proposal to account for other options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action07] [6]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-12-26
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chairs to open issue 31 [7]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-14-01
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: open issue 31 in tracker for discussion next week [8]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-17-06
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair to propose minimal fix for resolution [9]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-53-38
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to Recipe issue 1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action09] [10]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-55-46
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elisa to provide outline of work to be done by Apr 17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-swd-minutes.html#action11] [11]
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/22-swd-irc#T15-56-02