IRC log of html-wg on 2007-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

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03:35:39 [Lachy]
Hixie, I just discovered that you made _blank a conforming value for taget! Why?
03:36:05 [Lachy]
btw, you should also document _new
03:36:58 [Lachy]
I susepct _new is actually more widely used than _blank as well
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06:02:27 [Hixie]
Lachy: is _new actually a magic value, or does it "just work" the way "foo" does?
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06:03:52 [mjs]
in what browser?
06:05:26 [Hixie]
05:36 < Lachy>|btw, you should also document _new
06:05:26 [Hixie]
05:36 < Lachy>|I susepct _new is actually more widely used than _blank as well
06:05:56 [Lachy]
I'm pretty sure it's a magic value
06:06:04 [Hixie]
Lachy: regarding your other question, i didn't really think about what should be conforming, but now that i do, i could see legitimate use cases for _blank
06:06:11 [Hixie]
but i need to go home now
06:06:16 [Hixie]
feel free to mention it on the list
06:06:25 [Lachy]
ok, I'll do some tests and mail the results
06:06:43 [foca]
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06:07:21 [mjs]
_new is not magic in Safari but it appears to be in Firefox
06:07:41 [Hixie]
really? i though i based the spec on the values i got out of firefox's code :-)
06:07:46 [mjs]
(same behavior as _blank afaik)
06:07:51 [mjs]
(afaict I mean)
06:08:18 [mjs]
(for at least)
06:08:42 [Hixie]
back tomorrow, bed time now
06:08:43 [Hixie]
06:09:16 [Lachy]
doesn't appear to be magic in IE7
06:12:52 [Lachy]
not magic in IE6 either.
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06:38:36 [mjs]
do did everyone note that TimBL wants to join our telecon?
06:42:58 [anne5]
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06:44:34 [sbuluf]
telecon is via irc? now?
06:45:13 [sbuluf]
timbl and tag have been discussing xml versioning in last meeting, if it helps
06:49:45 [mjs]
no, tomorrow
06:50:21 [karl]
no today ;) (in Japan)
06:50:38 [sbuluf]
06:52:00 [anne5]
in Europe it's today as well iirc
06:53:04 [MikeSmith]
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06:53:29 [sbuluf] <--if anyone wishes to see
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07:26:43 [sbuluf]
neither me, if it helps
07:27:33 [sbuluf]
futhermore, to be honest, i thought versioning in xml was solved long ago. or at least, it should, since it makes sense to consider the problem even before sitting to write down the first xml draft
07:28:21 [anne5]
i think they mean versioning of xml languages
07:28:28 [anne5]
not the xml syntax
07:28:36 [sbuluf]
07:28:50 [anne5]
which is the perfect example of a bad versioning story...
07:34:40 [krijnh]
DanC: "(in what timezone?)" on => CET
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12:39:30 [mraymond]
Wow people are here early!
12:39:50 [anne5]
you must think the world is flat?
12:39:55 [Lachy]
mraymond, people hang out here all the time
12:40:05 [Lachy]
some people are here 24/7
12:40:12 [krijnh]
Yeah, silly them
12:40:22 [Lachy]
some people don't have a life beyond IRC
12:40:44 [krijnh]
Yeah, silly you
12:40:45 [krijnh]
12:40:48 [wilhelm]
Or just use screen+irssi..(c;
12:42:01 [mraymond]
Is there a way to listen to the teleconference via Internet so you don't have to be on the phone long distance?
12:42:33 [anne5]
you could try getting skype
12:43:03 [anne5]
the minutes of the meeting will be done here on IRC so you can "participate" without dialing in
12:43:21 [Bob_le_Pointu]
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12:43:57 [Lachy]
unfortunately, IRC minutes aren't easy to follow
12:44:29 [anne5]
depends on the minute taker
12:45:02 [mraymond]
Is there an expected length of time for the meeting?
12:45:21 [anne5]
90min prolly
12:45:26 [Lachy]
12:45:36 [mraymond]
Sounds about right.
12:46:09 [mraymond]
12:46:12 [Lachy]
12:46:13 [anne5]
Lachy, that's the typical length of a telcon... although groups can decide to have shorter or longer telcons
12:46:32 [Lachy]
I like the 16 min telcon for WAF 2 weeks ago
12:46:45 [pasquale]
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12:47:00 [anne5]
yes, those are good
12:47:37 [Lachy]
I wonder how many people are actually going to call
12:47:46 [anne5]
12:47:54 [anne5]
per the response
12:48:00 [anne5]
12:48:17 [Lachy]
hmm. That might not be too bad, though it's a lot
12:49:01 [mraymond]
Question to all: Who would be your nightmare editor?
12:49:24 [Lachy]
anyone from the XHTML2/XForms WGs
12:50:07 [anne5]
someone who doesn't do much
12:50:21 [anne5]
doesn't listen to feedback from the WG, other people, etc.
12:51:03 [Lachy]
mraymond, why?
12:51:28 [anne5]
mraymond is matthew raymond?
12:51:29 [mraymond]
Just wondering if people were thinking the same thing as me, which is apparently so.
12:51:40 [mraymond]
Yeah, I'm Matthew Raymond.
12:51:47 [anne5]
12:51:54 [anne5]
/whois didn't tell
12:52:04 [mraymond]
I just installed ChatZilla.
12:52:09 [mraymond]
I'm at work.
12:52:23 [icaaq]
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12:52:31 [anne5]
fair enough
12:55:25 [zcorpan]
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13:00:27 [anne5]
MattRaymond, you might also want to join #whatwg on
13:01:37 [MattRaymond]
Not a huge fan of multiuser chat. I'm a slow reader.
13:02:17 [MattRaymond]
And a barely adequate typist.
13:03:29 [MattRaymond]
Although compared to other chats I've been in, this is positively glacial. Don't expect it to be like that when the meeting starts, though.
13:03:40 [Lachy]
MattRaymond, I'm a slow reader too, but it's not that hard to keep up with multiple channels
13:03:50 [Dashiva]
Most people only talk in one of the channels at a time too
13:04:16 [Lachy]
except for crazy people like anne5 who can maintain conversations in 3 channles at once :-)
13:07:52 [zcorpan]
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13:16:20 [MattRaymond]
Thought: Use HTML5 as basis for the next spec, but use HTML 4.01 as basis for Authors' Guide?
13:16:52 [anne5]
authors' guide?
13:16:58 [Philip`]
The structure/style of HTML 4.01, or the actual text?
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14:14:04 [DanC]
I just added meta-topics such as handling duplicates to ; all are invited to polish further
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14:14:44 [Lachy]
hey DanC
14:15:21 [Lachy]
is the versioning issue on the agenda for the telcon?
14:16:10 [DanC]
no. not explicitly, anyway. I don't see a productive way to deal with it by phone
14:16:18 [Lachy]
14:16:37 [Lachy]
Chris and I have been discussing it off list and seem to be getting somewhere
14:16:48 [DanC]
getting somewhere is good. :)
14:17:32 [Lachy]
I'm still awaiting his full response, but his quick response today indicates that he likes my latest compromise (though what he wrote was a little ambiguous)
14:17:38 [hasather]
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14:18:36 [DanC]
are you guys copying www-archive on your offlist discussion? If not, I can't be completely friendly about it.
14:19:21 [DanC]
to some extent, I trust that you understand the risks of offlist discussion, but I feel I should say so in any case.
14:20:57 [Sander]
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14:25:40 [Lachy]
we're not, but I have a copy of everything if you would like to me send it (if I get his permission to)
14:25:59 [Lachy]
I'm planning to summarise the discussion and post the result to public-html anyway
14:30:08 [Lachy]
what are the risks of off-list discussion that you're referring to?
14:30:56 [anne5]
you might be getting nowhere
14:31:32 [Lachy]
that's possible
14:31:53 [DanC]
I'm referring to the risk of "why didn't you include the rest of us" back-lash.
14:32:46 [DanC]
and the risk of "why does Chris Wilson answer Lachy's mail but not mine?"
14:32:47 [Lachy]
that doesn't bother me
14:33:13 [krijnh]
Because Lachy is so friendly to cwilso :)
14:33:23 [Lachy]
yep :-)
14:35:27 [Lachy]
actually, off-list discussion has probably been advantageous in this case cause it prevents productive discussion being flooded with dozens of +1s
14:35:50 [schepers_]
14:36:00 [krijnh]
14:37:15 [anne5]
Lachy, www-archive doesn't have that effect
14:38:08 [MattRaymond]
The whole +1 situation had gotten out of hand.
14:38:43 [Ashe]
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14:39:16 [Bob_le_Pointu]
Sorry for my +1, it was just to test the list.
14:40:33 [Lachy]
Bob_le_Pointu, weren't the hundreds of daily emails sufficient evidence that the list was working?
14:40:52 [anne5]
doesn't tell you if posting does
14:41:09 [Bob_le_Pointu]
Until karl and I tested with that, my mails we'rent posted.
14:41:11 [anne5]
we're at a nice 1500 for this month btw
14:41:19 [Lachy]
you don't need to know that till you have something important to say, and you find out pretty quickly then if it doesn't
14:42:34 [Bob_le_Pointu]
I disagree, I had something to say, but I could'nt send. Waiting for the problem was solved, the topic was nearly closed and my message became useles.
14:42:41 [Bob_le_Pointu]
Now, it's fixed at last.
14:44:44 [anne5]
best way is to e-mail www-archive
14:44:51 [anne5]
with something like "test"
14:46:15 [Julian]
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14:46:27 [Bob_le_Pointu]
I did anne5, like you suggested me to do, I received an form to fill, and no more.
14:47:56 [anne5]
oh right
14:48:03 [anne5]
well, that should've worked
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15:15:28 [gsnedders]
DanC: yeah, I'm waiting for top posting to come up
15:17:43 [gavin]
it leads to all sorts of distracting meta discussion every time!
15:17:47 [gsnedders]
gavin: well, we seem to discuss everything, so it will
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15:54:45 [hsivonen]
I wonder if it matters which telecon number I dial with Skype
15:55:40 [Alfonso]
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15:56:38 [zcorpan]
it's in 5 minutes isn't it
15:56:52 [Lachy]
in 1:03
15:56:58 [krijnh]
15:57:13 [hsivonen]
was the orientation t-45?
15:57:30 [Gregory]
yes, although it can begin now if you have any questions
15:58:30 [Bob_le_Pointu]
15:58:34 [Bob_le_Pointu]
I'll miss that.
15:58:37 [hsivonen]
how do people request a timeslot to speak in? and how are permissions to speak given?
15:58:47 [Gregory]
on IRC or on the phone?
15:59:09 [Lachy]
type /me q+ to add yourself to the queue
15:59:42 [Bob_le_Pointu]
Is there a dedicated IRC channel ?
15:59:51 [Lachy]
there were links to Zakim instructions in an email from DanC
15:59:54 [Gregory]
zakim (phone) options: 61# to mute yourself; 60# to unMute yourself
16:00:24 [Gregory]
zakim (phone) part 2: 41# to raise your hand (enter speaking queue); 40# to lower your hand (exit speaking queue)
16:00:50 [Zakim]
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16:00:54 [DanC]
Zakim, this is html
16:00:54 [Zakim]
DanC, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be html".
16:00:59 [DanC]
Zakim, this will be html
16:01:00 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start now
16:01:04 [chaals]
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16:01:49 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr pre-telcon orientation discussion
16:01:54 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:01:54 [RRSAgent]
16:02:07 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr pre-telcon orientation discussion log:
16:02:38 [DanC]
q+ to note the nice weather in KC
16:02:38 [anne5]
chaals, !
16:02:56 [DanC]
agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z
16:03:03 [DanC]
agenda + Design Principles and Requirements
16:03:10 [DanC]
agenda + Forms baseline
16:03:18 [DanC]
agenda + HTML spec baseline
16:03:21 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:03:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.734.995.aaaa
16:03:34 [Zakim]
16:04:00 [Lachy]
what's the phone number?
16:04:13 [DanC]
Zakim, phone number?
16:04:14 [Zakim]
I am sorry, DanC; I do not know a number for number?
16:04:15 [Zakim]
16:04:31 [DanC]
Zakim, passcode?
16:04:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
16:04:56 [DanC]
Zakim, aaaa is Patrick_Ion
16:04:59 [Zakim]
+Patrick_Ion; got it
16:05:33 [PatrickDFIon]
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16:06:00 [DanC]
Zakim, Patrick_Ion is PatrickDFIon
16:06:00 [Zakim]
+PatrickDFIon; got it
16:06:32 [gavin]
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16:07:29 [Gregory]
16:07:55 [Gregory]
MikeSmith - this is the orientation portion of the telecon
16:08:11 [Zakim]
16:08:13 [Zakim]
16:08:18 [MikeSmith]
Gregory - thxs
16:08:32 [chaals]
zakim, who is talking?
16:08:42 [Zakim]
chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (40%), ??P18 (84%)
16:09:03 [DanC]
ack danc
16:09:03 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note the nice weather in KC
16:09:05 [Lachy]
Zakim, ??P17 is Lachlan Hunt
16:09:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P17 is Lachlan Hunt', Lachy
16:09:09 [Zakim]
16:09:13 [chaals]
zakim, ??P18 is me
16:09:13 [Zakim]
+chaals; got it
16:09:18 [Lachy]
Zakim, +??P17 is Lachy
16:09:18 [Zakim]
sorry, Lachy, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17'
16:09:24 [Lachy]
Zakim, ??P17 is Lachy
16:09:24 [Zakim]
+Lachy; got it
16:09:33 [krijnh]
What a hassle to note the nice weather in KC..
16:09:44 [hsivonen]
I just joined
16:09:51 [hsivonen]
no caller id :-(
16:10:08 [chaals]
zakim, who is talking?
16:10:19 [Zakim]
chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (78%), ??P19 (20%)
16:10:21 [DanC]
Zakim, mute chaals temporarily
16:10:21 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
16:10:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.949.588.aabb
16:10:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.908.781.aacc
16:10:37 [Zakim]
chaals should now be unmuted again
16:10:39 [anne5]
Zakim, who is here?
16:10:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata, Lachy, chaals, ??P19, +1.949.588.aabb, +1.908.781.aacc
16:10:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gavin, PatrickDFIon, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, mjs, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, Shunsuke, jdandrea, Julian, Ashe, Sander, hasather, gavin_, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy,
16:10:45 [Zakim]
... zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, MikeSmith, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC,
16:10:47 [Zakim]
... gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
16:10:54 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P19 in hsivonen
16:10:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P19 in hsivonen', DanC
16:11:00 [DanC]
Zakim, P19 in hsivonen
16:11:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'P19 in hsivonen', DanC
16:11:03 [anne5]
Zakim, 19 is hsivonen
16:11:03 [Zakim]
sorry, anne5, I do not recognize a party named '19'
16:11:05 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P19 is hsivonen
16:11:05 [Zakim]
+hsivonen; got it
16:11:07 [chaals]
zakim, who is talking?
16:11:13 [mjs]
good morning
16:11:17 [Zakim]
chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (54%), hsivonen (15%)
16:11:18 [mjs]
is this the pre-session?
16:11:23 [Gregory]
yes, mjs
16:11:31 [DanC]
Zakim, aabb is Preston
16:11:31 [Zakim]
+Preston; got it
16:11:36 [anne5]
mjs, starts in 50min
16:11:37 [chaals]
zakim, mute me
16:11:37 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
16:11:42 [Zakim]
- +1.908.781.aacc
16:13:18 [Sander]
ooh, steven brust fan!
16:13:23 [dbaron]
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16:13:40 [h3h]
no chance for an audio feed of the call? :)
16:14:40 [DanC]
h3h, no, not today. you might ask in
16:14:47 [DanC]
about doing that in the future
16:14:55 [DanC]
it's complicated, both technically and socially.
16:15:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.724.738.aadd
16:15:28 [hsivonen]
does the telecon bridge have a vox that mutes the sound when no one is talking or am I losing packets?
16:16:01 [DanC]
it auto-mutes, yes
16:16:18 [DanC]
Zakim, aadd is David_D
16:16:18 [Zakim]
+David_D; got it
16:16:41 [DanC]
yes... rather: Zakim, I am Lachy
16:16:45 [Lachy]
Zakim, I am Lachy
16:16:45 [Zakim]
ok, Lachy, I now associate you with Lachy
16:16:56 [johnst]
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16:17:06 [chaals]
ack ??P18
16:17:53 [MattRaymond]
What exactly is the speaker queue? I got the start time for the meeting wrong.
16:18:08 [chaals]
16:18:14 [DanC]
ack MattRaymond
16:18:17 [chaals]
ack me
16:18:27 [DanC]
Zakim, is MattRaymond here?
16:18:27 [Zakim]
DanC, I do not see MattRaymond anywhere
16:18:40 [DanC]
hard to explain by IRC, MattRaymond
16:18:55 [Gregory]
the speaker queue is the list of speakers who wish to speak (41# to raise hand; 40# to put hand down (exit queue)
16:18:56 [chaals]
If you type q+ you will be put in the speaker queue
16:18:57 [Lachy]
Zakim, mute me
16:18:57 [Zakim]
Lachy should now be muted
16:19:10 [MattRaymond]
Oh, vocally, then.
16:19:18 [chaals]
(this is better than interrupting speakers to say "me too...")
16:19:36 [DanC]
the really cool thing is that Zakim will remember what you wanted to say...
16:19:40 [chaals]
You can also use "q+ to XYXYXYXYX" and zakim will remember what you wanted to say
16:19:46 [DanC]
q+ to say that HTML 12 should have a <smellovision> tag
16:19:52 [chaals]
q+ to say that maybe queuing up is a good idedea
16:19:57 [DanC]
then, 10 minutes later, when the chair acks me....
16:19:58 [DanC]
ack danc
16:19:58 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to say that HTML 12 should have a <smellovision> tag
16:20:03 [chaals]
16:20:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.664.aaee
16:20:09 [Lachy]
+1 to <smellovision>!
16:20:37 [DanC]
ack chaals
16:20:42 [anne5]
maybe a <+1> element?
16:20:47 [hsivonen]
q+ testing
16:20:56 [hsivonen]
16:20:58 [anne5]
should be trivial to make the parsing algorithm support that...
16:21:04 [Neovov]
Neovov has joined #html-wg
16:21:07 [chaals]
q+ to say that you can put someone else on the queue
16:21:10 [DanC]
anne5, you know where the Zakim source is, yes?
16:21:30 [Neovov]
Hi everybody !
16:21:30 [anne5]
somewhere on ?
16:21:34 [chaals]
ack me
16:21:34 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say that you can put someone else on the queue
16:21:37 [anne5]
or do you mean something else?
16:21:41 [chaals]
16:21:41 [Preston]
Who is the guy this the background noise?
16:21:49 [anne5]
Zakim, who is making noise?
16:21:54 [chaals]
q- testing
16:22:00 [Zakim]
anne5, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (49%), hsivonen (15%)
16:22:00 [chaals]
zakim, mute me
16:22:02 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
16:22:21 [gavin_]
gavin_ has joined #html-wg
16:22:28 [sierk]
sierk has joined #html-wg
16:22:35 [chaals]
zakim, agenda?
16:22:35 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:22:36 [Zakim]
1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z [from DanC]
16:22:37 [Zakim]
2. Design Principles and Requirements [from DanC]
16:22:39 [Zakim]
3. Forms baseline [from DanC]
16:22:40 [Zakim]
4. HTML spec baseline [from DanC]
16:22:54 [Preston]
Yep. Collision detection does not work so well on overloaded channels (as this case).
16:23:22 [Zakim]
+ +24053aaff
16:23:23 [edas]
edas has joined #html-wg
16:23:34 [chaals]
ack me
16:24:07 [Lachy]
unmute me
16:24:08 [olli-]
olli- has joined #html-wg
16:24:34 [DanC]
Zakim, unmute me
16:24:34 [Zakim]
DanC was not muted, DanC
16:25:02 [chaals]
zakim, mute me
16:25:02 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
16:25:02 [Lachy]
Zakim, unmute me
16:25:03 [Zakim]
Lachy should no longer be muted
16:25:21 [DanC]
I think the cgi client is cited from
16:26:18 [DanC]
Zakim, aaff is Debi_Orton
16:26:18 [Zakim]
+Debi_Orton; got it
16:26:45 [mjs]
mjs has joined #html-wg
16:27:17 [chaals]
16:28:52 [Patrick]
Patrick has joined #html-wg
16:30:41 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
16:31:22 [Gregory]
zakim, mute me
16:31:22 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmiata should now be muted
16:31:33 [chaals]
q+ to say you should use Opera for IRC :)
16:31:58 [hasather]
hasather has left #html-wg
16:32:06 [chaals]
zakim, who is here?
16:32:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata (muted), Lachy, chaals (muted), hsivonen, Preston, David_D, +1.518.664.aaee, Debi_Orton
16:32:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs, olli-, edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, dbaron, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, Shunsuke, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander,
16:32:13 [Zakim]
... Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen,
16:32:16 [Zakim]
... Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
16:32:26 [mikkhonk]
mikkhonk has joined #html-wg
16:32:32 [Gregory]
zakim Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
16:32:53 [DanC]
let's not do "who is here?" too often
16:33:36 [DanC] works
16:34:08 [Lachy]
zakim, who is talking
16:34:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is talking', Lachy
16:34:21 [Lachy]
zakim, who is talking?
16:34:30 [glazou]
glazou has joined #html-wg
16:34:30 [Gregory]
lachy speaking is Debbie Orton
16:34:34 [Zakim]
Lachy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.518.664.aaee (11%)
16:34:35 [glazou]
good evening
16:34:46 [hasather]
hasather has joined #html-wg
16:34:48 [Neovov]
hi glazou
16:34:53 [glazou]
the conf call has already started ?
16:35:01 [glazou]
16:35:08 [DanC]
Zakim, aaee is Debi_Orton
16:35:08 [Zakim]
+Debi_Orton; got it
16:35:24 [glazou]
starting in 25mns right ?
16:35:27 [DanC]
16:35:31 [glazou]
16:35:42 [DanC]
we're using the bridge to do orientation now
16:35:56 [mikko_honkala_]
mikko_honkala_ has joined #html-wg
16:36:21 [mikko_honkala]
mikko_honkala has joined #html-wg
16:36:25 [MattRaymond]
I'm getting an error with Skype
16:36:51 [chaals]
ack me
16:36:52 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say you should use Opera for IRC :)
16:36:56 [DanC]
I can only wish you luck with skype.
16:37:40 [hsivonen]
MattRaymond: Skype is working for me assuming that the silent moments come from the Zakim vox and not from packet loss
16:38:49 [olli-]
olli- has left #html-wg
16:39:05 [Zakim]
+ +7.233.aagg
16:39:07 [Zakim]
+ +47.61.aahh
16:39:23 [Debi]
Debi has joined #html-wg
16:39:53 [MattRaymond]
I'm getting error message 9502.
16:40:21 [DanC]
Zakim, aagg is glazou
16:40:21 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:40:29 [MattRaymond]
Screw it, I'll use my cell.
16:40:37 [Debi]
The usability source is There is a PDF guide of the book available from
16:40:45 [DanC]
good to know, Debi
16:40:48 [chaals]
welcome to IRC Debi
16:41:04 [sierk]
Hi! Which Skype contact name or number do I have to call, to participate via Skype?
16:41:12 [dbaron]
DanC, If you don't already have a scribe, I'm willing to...
16:41:16 [Lachy]
Zakim, what is the passcode?
16:41:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
16:41:24 [sierk]
16:41:44 [Gregory]
zakim, unmute me
16:41:44 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmiata should no longer be muted
16:41:51 [chaals]
[would be good, in the agenda, to put a link to the channel a la irc:// for clients that can easily connect]
16:41:54 [chaals]
ack me
16:41:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.859.539.aaii
16:42:09 [chaals]
zakim, aaii is mattraymond
16:42:09 [Zakim]
+mattraymond; got it
16:42:13 [DanC]
16:42:33 [MattRaymond]
zakim, mute me
16:42:33 [Zakim]
mattraymond should now be muted
16:42:38 [chaals]
zakim, who is here
16:42:38 [Zakim]
chaals, you need to end that query with '?'
16:42:41 [chaals]
zakim, who is here?
16:42:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata, Lachy, chaals, hsivonen, Preston, David_D, Debi_Orton.a, Debi_Orton, glazou, +47.61.aahh, mattraymond (muted)
16:42:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Debi, mikko_honkala, hasather, glazou, MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs, edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea,
16:42:50 [Zakim]
... Ashe, Sander, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22,
16:42:52 [Zakim]
... martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
16:42:56 [heycam]
heycam has joined #html-wg
16:43:12 [henrik]
henrik has joined #html-wg
16:43:47 [Debi]
16:44:10 [DanC]
Zakim, Debi_Orton is Somebody
16:44:10 [Zakim]
+Somebody; got it
16:44:23 [DanC]
Zakim, Debi_Orton.a is Debi_Orton
16:44:23 [Zakim]
+Debi_Orton; got it
16:44:26 [Gregory]
zakim, mute me
16:44:26 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmiata should now be muted
16:44:29 [chaals]
zakim, please mute me
16:44:29 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
16:44:39 [MattRaymond]
zakim, unmute me
16:44:39 [Zakim]
mattraymond should no longer be muted
16:44:50 [chaals]
zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is really Gregory_Rosmaita
16:44:50 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
16:45:30 [Shunsuke]
Shunsuke has joined #html-wg
16:46:09 [Patrick]
Presumably a problem is a phone port is taken up by an unidentified.
16:46:34 [chaals]
Patrick, no - Zakim is buried in the phone system....
16:46:55 [MattRaymond]
zakim, mute me
16:46:55 [Zakim]
mattraymond should now be muted
16:46:57 [Gregory]
via phone, one can join the queue by pressing 41 followed by the # sign; to exit the queue, press 40 followed by the # sign
16:47:15 [chaals]
agenda+ using q+/q-/q= and q+ to (and the magic numbers)
16:47:19 [Patrick]
I thought we were allotted only so many ports for a given telcon; I recollect running out once.
16:47:45 [MattRaymond]
zakim, unmute me
16:47:45 [Zakim]
mattraymond should no longer be muted
16:48:01 [Gregory]
alternative collaboration technologies;
16:48:19 [Gregory]
DD and MR using pointers from HTML WG space
16:48:53 [Gregory]
DC: IRC channel been open since March 2007; anything written to channel is archived and stored on w3 space
16:49:26 [Gregory]
hard to follow the mailing list plus the IRC channel (active 24 hours a day)
16:49:34 [Gregory]
DanC: no one expects you to follow it
16:49:47 [Gregory]
if you miss discussions, hard to find them
16:49:55 [MattRaymond]
16:49:58 [MattRaymond]
16:50:12 [Gregory]
DanC: if you chat in IRC and want to bring attention to the whole WG, email a pointer
16:50:17 [Zakim]
16:50:23 [JacksonW]
JacksonW has joined #html-wg
16:50:25 [chaals]
scribenick: Gregory
16:50:46 [hyatt]
hyatt has joined #html-wg
16:51:02 [hyatt]
16:51:17 [mjs]
hello hyatt
16:51:19 [DanC]
Zakim, [Mozilla] holds Gavin_Sharp
16:51:19 [Zakim]
+Gavin_Sharp; got it
16:51:42 [DanC]
Zakim, Gavin_Sharp is Gavin
16:51:42 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'Gavin_Sharp'
16:52:48 [Gregory]
teleconference via the web? used to coordinate between gamers; don't know name of app
16:53:29 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has joined #html-wg
16:53:30 [Gregory]
DanC: 40 to 400 people at any given time; demo of Open Croquet (sp?) downloaded
16:53:56 [Gregory]
something that would allow re-threading of related threads
16:54:07 [hsivonen]
jwz threading :-)
16:54:13 [gavin]
16:54:15 [Gregory]
DanC: hard to do; email the lingua franca for a reason
16:54:25 [hsivonen]
MattRaymond: I think the software you mentioned is TeamSpeak
16:54:35 [Gregory]
16:54:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.741.aajj
16:54:42 [pasquale]
pasquale has joined #html-wg
16:54:51 [CarolK]
CarolK has joined #html-wg
16:54:52 [MattRaymond]
Yes, it was Teamspeak, I think.
16:55:04 [Zakim]
- +47.61.aahh
16:55:11 [Julian]
Julian has joined #html-wg
16:55:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.250.294.aakk
16:55:19 [DanC]
hsivonen, please use MattRaymond, to address him, rather than MattRaymond: , as MattRaymond: is the syntax we use to record what somebody said, as in play notation. "Romeo: ..."
16:55:55 [hsivonen]
DanC, ok. this is the irssi autocomplete
16:55:57 [MattRaymond]
DanC: Not use to using IRC
16:55:59 [DanC]
looking up jackson in
16:56:06 [JacksonW]
Jackson = me
16:56:14 [DanC]
Zakim, aajj is JacksonW
16:56:14 [Zakim]
+JacksonW; got it
16:56:30 [DanC]
Zakim, aakk is John_Boyer
16:56:30 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer; got it
16:56:42 [Zakim]
16:57:02 [olli-]
olli- has joined #html-wg
16:57:06 [chaals]
zakim, ??p9 is MikeSmith
16:57:07 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
16:57:43 [gavin]
I'm not sure that I've been added correctly yet
16:57:47 [MattRaymond]
16:58:05 [Zakim]
16:58:09 [Zakim]
+ +49.251.86.aall
16:58:15 [Gregory]
zakim, unmute me
16:58:16 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
16:58:31 [chaals]
gavin, you can try 41# on the phone and that will tell us if you are really recorded right
16:58:34 [MattRaymond]
zakim, mute me
16:58:35 [Zakim]
mattraymond should now be muted
16:58:38 [Gregory]
zakim, mute me
16:58:39 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
16:58:44 [chaals]
zakim, aall is Julian
16:58:44 [Zakim]
+Julian; got it
16:58:48 [glazou]
Zakim, mute glazou
16:58:48 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
16:58:52 [DanC]
Zakim, aall is Julian_Reschke
16:58:52 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aall'
16:59:18 [DanC]
ack Debi
16:59:31 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #html-wg
16:59:34 [gavin]
soory, that may be my fault
16:59:40 [DanC]
ack moz
16:59:58 [Zakim]
17:00:05 [mikko_honkala]
mikko_honkala has joined #html-wg
17:00:10 [Zakim]
17:00:24 [chaals]
ack me
17:00:27 [hyatt]
adele and i are on zakim now
17:00:29 [DanC]
Olivier Gendrin?
17:00:34 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute glazou
17:00:34 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
17:00:41 [DanC]
# Mikko Honkala <>
17:00:47 [chaals]
zakim, please mute me
17:00:47 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
17:01:05 [chaals]
zakim, P26 is mikko_honkala
17:01:05 [Zakim]
sorry, chaals, I do not recognize a party named 'P26'
17:01:08 [mjs]
is it time to call in?
17:01:10 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
17:01:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
17:01:10 [chaals]
zakim, ??P26 is mikko_honkala
17:01:12 [Zakim]
+mikko_honkala; got it
17:01:14 [DanC]
yes, mjs
17:01:15 [chaals]
mjs, yes
17:01:22 [Zakim]
17:01:24 [schepers_]
maciej: yes
17:01:35 [Zakim]
17:01:43 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr telcon
17:01:49 [chaals]
zakim, [mozilla.a] is dbaron
17:01:49 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
17:01:53 [glazou]
dbaron: gavin
17:02:01 [anne5]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
17:02:01 [Zakim]
+anne5; got it
17:02:03 [hyatt]
wonders if zakim thinks he's from mozilla
17:02:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.595.aamm
17:02:18 [Zakim]
17:02:20 [Zakim]
17:02:20 [Zakim]
17:02:25 [Hixie]
Zakim, i am Ian_Hickson
17:02:25 [Zakim]
ok, Hixie, I now associate you with Ian_Hickson
17:02:25 [DanC]
Zakim, aamm is mjs
17:02:26 [Zakim]
+mjs; got it
17:02:27 [Hixie]
Zakim, mute me
17:02:27 [Zakim]
Ian_Hickson should now be muted
17:02:30 [adele]
adele has joined #html-wg
17:02:33 [JacksonW]
zakim, please mute me
17:02:33 [Zakim]
JacksonW should now be muted
17:02:45 [DanC]
Zakim, who's talking
17:02:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's talking', DanC
17:02:47 [gavin]
Zakim, I am Gavin_Sharp
17:02:47 [Zakim]
sorry, gavin, I do not see a party named 'Gavin_Sharp'
17:02:47 [DanC]
Zakim, who's talking?
17:02:54 [mjs]
zakim, please mute me
17:02:54 [Zakim]
mjs should now be muted
17:02:58 [Zakim]
DanC, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
17:03:01 [glazou]
DanC: cannot hear you at all
17:03:10 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is making noise?
17:03:16 [Zakim]
17:03:21 [Zakim]
John_Boyer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: MikeSmith (2%), glazou (8%)
17:03:27 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute ??P2
17:03:27 [Zakim]
??P2 should now be muted
17:03:33 [Zakim]
17:03:35 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
17:03:35 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
17:03:49 [hyatt]
has no idea what port he's on
17:03:49 [Zakim]
17:03:52 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute me
17:03:52 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should no longer be muted
17:03:57 [chaals]
zakim, who is here?
17:03:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Lachy, chaals (muted), hsivonen, Preston, David_D, Debi_Orton, Somebody, glazou, mattraymond (muted), [Mozilla],
17:04:01 [Zakim]
... JacksonW (muted), John_Boyer, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala (muted), Oliver, dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson (muted), [IPcaller], ??P2 (muted)
17:04:05 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has Gavin_Sharp
17:04:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see adele, mikko_honkala, dbaron, olli-, Julian, CarolK, pasquale, John_Boyer, hyatt, JacksonW, Shunsuke, henrik, heycam, Debi, hasather, glazou, MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs,
17:04:10 [Zakim]
... edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu,
17:04:15 [Gregory]
hyatt the port is the public one 6665
17:04:15 [Zakim]
... MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm,
17:04:17 [Zakim]
... claudio
17:04:18 [Zakim]
17:04:19 [Zakim]
17:04:20 [adele]
hyatt and I are on the phone
17:04:28 [DanC]
chaals, use
17:04:33 [hyatt]
i meant my zakin id or something
17:04:39 [Zakim]
17:04:49 [timbl]
timbl has joined #html-wg
17:05:20 [Gregory]
DanC: i will be your chair today; Chris Wilson will be joining soon
17:05:24 [Zakim]
17:05:30 [chaals]
scribe: Gregory
17:05:42 [chaals]
zakim, ??p27 is arun
17:05:42 [Zakim]
+arun; got it
17:06:05 [glazou]
chaals: he's not on irc is he ?
17:06:10 [Gregory]
DanC: Tim Berners-Lee and John Boyer invited guests
17:06:20 [DanC]
for real-time roll, see
17:06:31 [lbolstad]
lbolstad has joined #html-wg
17:06:47 [DanC]
17:06:57 [ddailey]
ddailey has joined #html-wg
17:07:16 [sierk]
Where on this list am I?
17:07:21 [Gregory]
DanC: telecon questionaire comments incorporated into agenda by DanC
17:07:29 [DanC]
17:07:29 [arun]
arun has joined #html-wg
17:07:38 [Gregory]
DanC: comments on agenda?
17:08:03 [JacksonW]
hola arun
17:08:24 [Gregory]
DanC: anyone who cannot access slash experience agenda?
17:08:26 [Gregory]
17:08:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.401.455.aann
17:08:48 [Gregory]
DanC: anything you say will be recorded (or may be recorded) for posterity in public web space
17:08:59 [chaals]
zakim, aann is Tim_McMahon
17:08:59 [Zakim]
+Tim_McMahon; got it
17:09:03 [Zakim]
17:09:15 [DanC]
Tim McMahon
17:09:23 [Zakim]
17:09:44 [glazou]
one of our chairs
17:09:46 [chaals]
ack me
17:10:01 [chaals]
zakim, mute me
17:10:01 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
17:10:12 [Gregory]
chaals: dan has dropped off, so chris please take over for now
17:10:26 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 1
17:10:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z, closed
17:10:27 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:28 [chaals]
zakim, [microsoft] is temporarily chrisW
17:10:28 [Zakim]
2. Design Principles and Requirements [from DanC]
17:10:29 [Zakim]
+chrisW; got it
17:10:32 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item forms
17:10:32 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Forms baseline" taken up [from DanC]
17:10:32 [glazou]
arun: quantum physics... observe the chair and it changes :-)
17:10:33 [Gregory]
Chris: better wait until DanC back on
17:10:44 [glazou]
17:10:52 [mjs]
timbl: doesn't matter, they have opposite spin
17:10:53 [MikeSmith]
s/Chris: better/MikeSmith: better/
17:10:57 [Zakim]
17:11:02 [glazou]
17:11:17 [DanC]
Zakim, call DanC-BOS
17:11:17 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; the call is being made
17:11:18 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
17:11:18 [Zakim]
17:11:19 [DanC]
17:11:20 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
17:11:32 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute me
17:11:32 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
17:11:42 [Gregory]
DanC: resume chairing meeting
17:11:42 [Patrick]
Isn't entanglement working for us?
17:11:59 [Gregory]
DanC: can we take item 3 instead of item 2? objections?
17:12:03 [MattRaymond]
zakim, unmute me
17:12:03 [Zakim]
mattraymond should no longer be muted
17:12:15 [Zakim]
17:12:23 [DanC]
"HTML5, comprising the Web Apps 1.0 and Web Forms 2.0 specifications, "
17:12:25 [mjs]
zakin, unmute me
17:12:33 [mjs]
zakim, unmute me
17:12:33 [Zakim]
mjs was not muted, mjs
17:12:59 [schepers_]
DS: does that mean taking it from WAF?
17:13:05 [Gregory]
DanC: will this group take over Web Forms? Dave Raggett and others putting together a task force
17:13:09 [schepers_]
17:13:16 [MattRaymond]
17:13:19 [MattRaymond]
17:13:19 [Gregory]
DanC: discussion?
17:13:22 [mjs]
17:13:23 [DanC]
ack MattRaymond
17:13:25 [John_Boyer]
17:13:32 [hsivonen]
Zakim, code
17:13:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', hsivonen
17:13:54 [Gregory]
Matt: would like clarification as to what is going on with XForms transitional; my understanding is not technically a working draft, but is specifically mentioned in HTML WG charter
17:14:20 [DanC]
(indeed... "XForms Transitional" -- )
17:14:24 [Lachy]
17:14:53 [DanC]
ack John_Boyer
17:15:44 [Gregory]
DanC: basic idea is not a WD at this point; look at what XForms currently provides and what HTML5 currently provides; address ease of use inherent in XForms 2.0; want best of both worlds
17:15:56 [glazou]
glazou has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr telcon, conf call code is 4865
17:15:57 [MattRaymond]
17:15:59 [Zakim]
17:16:02 [Gregory]
comments are welcome on this, right?
17:16:18 [John_Boyer]
17:16:19 [Gregory]
should be a working draft - first public working draft should appear in June 2007
17:16:22 [hsivonen]
Zakim, +??P19 is hsivonen
17:16:22 [Zakim]
sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '+??P19'
17:16:29 [hsivonen]
Zakim, ??P19 is hsivonen
17:16:29 [Zakim]
+hsivonen; got it
17:16:46 [chaals]
17:16:47 [Gregory]
Matt: made some comments on draft already on list
17:17:16 [Gregory]
Matt: feedback with regards to document - have yet to get anything back; sent to public-html
17:17:35 [MattRaymond]
17:17:36 [DanC]
ack schepers
17:17:36 [chaals]
ack sch
17:17:51 [Zakim]
17:17:55 [Gregory]
DougS: might be good if established what we are discussing; 1) Web Forms 2.0
17:18:05 [Lachy]
MattRaymonds comments about XForms Transitional:
17:18:07 [Gregory]
some talking of Web Forms 2, some XHTML tranistional
17:18:20 [Gregory]
DougS: will HTML WG take over
17:18:28 [Gregory]
as a task force or part of main activity
17:18:39 [John_Boyer]
The HTML WG and the 28Forms Working Group <> will work together in this Task Force to ensure that the new HTML forms and the new XForms Transitional have architectural consistency and that document authors can transition between them
17:18:46 [Gregory]
arguments for both sides; feedback from XForms WD important
17:18:51 [John_Boyer]
from charter
17:19:02 [Gregory]
DanC: will be a task force that will investigate combining the 2
17:19:15 [Gregory]
Matt: convergence of Web Forms 2 and XForms Transitional?
17:19:19 [Hixie]
mjs: yes
17:19:35 [Chris]
Chris has joined #html-wg
17:19:37 [Lachy]
17:19:50 [DanC]
(if folks could use , for direct address and : for attribution, I'd appreciate it. e.g. s/mjs:/mjs,/)
17:20:20 [Gregory]
John Boyer: yes; XForms transitional maps to XForms; forms WG looking at how to make XForms easier to author; XForms has good bit on this, Web Forms 2 needs author direction
17:20:43 [Preston]
@ Boyer - the link you gave is not generally accessible.
17:20:44 [Gregory]
features in HTML that don't find their way into XForms - specific to HTML because don't fit into XForms
17:21:08 [Zakim]
+ +035850570aaoo
17:21:19 [Gregory]
JB: common tag set and vocabulary ESSENTIAL; whether expressed with well formed XML or tag soup, have same syntax, grammar, and concepts
17:21:32 [DanC]
ack mjs
17:21:48 [mikko_honkala]
zakim, +0358 is mikko_honkala
17:21:48 [Zakim]
+mikko_honkala; got it
17:22:05 [mikko_honkala]
got dropped
17:22:42 [Gregory]
MJS: discussion topic evolved since got on queue; forms task force goal as stated in HTML charter is to ensure the HTML forms and XForms have same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness; keep XForms functionality in spec, have task force work on declarative featuers
17:22:46 [hyatt]
17:22:58 [JacksonW]
17:23:03 [glazou]
17:23:32 [mjs]
MJS: correction, I said "architectural consistency", not "same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness"
17:24:00 [Gregory]
strong view of consistency; what's been communicated in vision document; trying to create common set of ideas indicated by common tag set; if look at doc source transition between the 2 straightfoward; key issue for document authors
17:24:15 [DanC]
17:24:36 [Gregory]
who will start forms task force? have HTML WG task survey; one task is forms task force (3 people already indicated interest)
17:24:47 [schepers]
17:24:50 [DanC]
ack hsivonen
17:24:51 [Gregory]
DanC: extend deadline a bit
17:25:28 [MikeSmith]
s/same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness/architectural consistency/
17:25:29 [John_Boyer]
17:25:58 [Gregory]
agree; forms should be in spec itself rather than seperate spec; Web Forms 2.0 is implementable, XForms no implementation; issues raised on mailing list but no solution or resolution; problemmatic that doesn't seem implementable
17:26:01 [anne5]
(Besides the native implementation in Opera, there are also several libraries, a testsuite and a conformance checker.)
17:26:05 [Gregory]
anyone aware of implementation?
17:27:02 [DanC]
ack Lachy
17:27:03 [Gregory]
issues with JavaScript and side-effects not addressed in interoperable way so consistent across browsers; code execution order;
17:27:04 [MattRaymond]
Gregory, Opera
17:27:06 [chaals]
s/agree/hsivonen: agree/
17:27:50 [DanC]
ack schepers
17:27:52 [MattRaymond]
17:27:59 [Gregory]
Lachy: why is it a goal to make Web Forms more like XForms? doesn't make sense; XForms doesn't read like a spec; starting over with new spec would be place to start; changes to Web Forms 2.0 on point-by-point basis
17:28:13 [Hixie]
certainly all feedback on the wf2 spec should be taken into account, especially from forms experts like the xforms wg
17:28:22 [Gregory]
DougS: task force should be open to entire HTML WG; how will it work
17:28:29 [Gregory]
joint task force between the 2 WGs
17:28:34 [Lachy]
Gregory, correction, I said starting over with a enw spec would be a mistake
17:28:58 [Gregory]
scribe's correction - Lachy said new spec would be mistake
17:29:21 [Gregory]
mailing list of over 300 people, task forces organized in seperate lists
17:29:28 [DanC]
ack John_Boyer
17:30:20 [Gregory]
JB: trying to do with XForms transitional is to leave it open for new people to define and refine what it states; don't want Web Forms 2.0 to be basis of document until WG has identified things that are likely to change
17:30:39 [Gregory]
HTML5 proposal is not to publish, but use as basis of discussion
17:30:46 [Gregory]
first deadline June
17:30:53 [Gregory]
17:31:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.218.340.aapp
17:31:24 [Zakim]
+DonD (was ??P2)
17:31:39 [MikeSmith]
s/starting over with new spec would be place to start/mistakewould be a mistake/
17:32:06 [Gregory]
why rationalization necessary? trying to leverage the 7 or so years of experience that forms WG has had to address most complex forms problems; architecture in place that is very powerful; want to pull back to investigate how to make document authoring easier; solving more complicated problems being encounted now with HTML4 forms
17:32:18 [DanC]
ack martijn
17:32:21 [DanC]
ack MattRaymond
17:32:58 [anne5]
17:32:58 [Gregory]
Matt: wondering if specific reason why first draft of XForms transitional can't be expressed as delta document? incorportate Web Forms 2 so don't have to reinvent the wheel
17:33:03 [MikeSmith]
s/mistakewould be a mistake/starting over with new spec would be a mistake/
17:33:19 [Gregory]
DanC: asked Dave Raggett to join call but had conflict
17:33:29 [DanC]
Regrets+ Dave_Raggett
17:33:36 [Gregory]
next XForms transitional document: amalgamation of 2 existing documents?
17:34:06 [mjs]
17:34:36 [Gregory]
next document should have as much flow-in from useable material from whatever source; charter of HTML WG references XForms; task force will be reviewing and mapping and pulling in things from DaveR's bag of XForms with javascript efforts
17:34:37 [MattRaymond]
17:35:22 [Gregory]
need a couple of editors -- forms WG participant and HTML WG pariticipant co-editors, gatekeepers put concepts and ideas before HTML WG and if WG happy with that, then procede
17:35:23 [Zakim]
- +1.218.340.aapp
17:35:49 [Gregory]
chairs need to identify who will do this; too many editors a problem, as is too few
17:36:24 [Gregory]
survey of tasks sufficient to recruit; send pointer to public-html and collect responses
17:36:38 [Gregory]
link provided in member space
17:36:52 [Gregory]
need to join to have access
17:37:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.519.477.aaqq
17:37:09 [Gregory]
everyone from IBM should have access - not limited to members of HTML WG
17:37:28 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: call for forms tf volunteers (with review from John B.)
17:37:28 [MattRaymond]
17:37:44 [John_Boyer]
it's not letting me in (non wg member)
17:37:52 [MattRaymond]
17:37:52 [DanC]
ack anne
17:37:58 [Gregory]
DanC: before continue with queue, want people to think about moving to next agenda item
17:38:10 [Gregory]
JB: appreciate change in agenda to accomodate me
17:38:19 [myakura]
myakura has joined #html-wg
17:38:30 [Gregory]
would make sense if XForms WG were Web Forms is lacking
17:38:37 [Zakim]
17:38:38 [Gregory]
in this together;
17:38:39 [dbaron]
17:38:49 [MattRaymond]
17:38:54 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, ??P33 is MikeSmith
17:38:54 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
17:39:15 [Gregory]
Web Forms 2 has taken a lot of XForms transitional into account - what isn't solved by Web Forms 2?
17:39:20 [MattRaymond]
17:39:33 [Gregory]
good question to ask, no answer necessary
17:39:42 [chaals]
s/Web Forms/Anne: Web Forms/
17:39:53 [chaals]
s/good/DanC: good/
17:40:10 [anne5]
Nesting of repetition is addressed though...
17:40:20 [anne5]
John_Boyer, oh the survey page... dunno if everyone can address that, sorry
17:40:26 [olli-]
olli- has left #html-wg
17:40:31 [Gregory]
have to answer to someone; if look at repeating as example, easy to build list of items; help if repeating structure had a consistent behavior when try to nest it; at least 2 level nesting VERY important to get right;
17:40:32 [anne5]
John_Boyer, Sam Ruby joined on behalf of IBM btw
17:40:43 [DanC]
re "no answer necessary"... I'll have to elaborate in email. that's not a very good record of what I said. or meant.
17:40:46 [sierk]
Agenda: On I made a proposal for the agenda of the HTML WG concerning email address protection on websides. Is there any opinion to that topic or any opinion, if this could/should be solved by this WG?
17:41:02 [Gregory]
there are examples of nesting for Web Forms 2 - best to post specific use case / scenario where you think things are lacking
17:41:21 [DanC]
ack hsivonen
17:41:27 [Gregory]
DanC: wrap up issue, please
17:41:46 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
17:41:46 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
17:42:00 [Gregory]
vision for XForms Trans for non-professional authors; server-side portion - can such a product be made with standardization
17:42:05 [DanC]
ack mjs
17:42:09 [Gregory]
don't think that's true - can talk about why you think that
17:42:40 [MikeSmith]
s/vision for/hsivonen: vision for/
17:42:46 [Gregory]
most useful way to express XForms Trans a set of team requests relative to Web Forms 2 with reasons for suggestion; use cases arbitrary
17:43:05 [DanC]
ack dbaron
17:43:08 [Gregory]
now have trouble - attributes seem to be the same, but not enough definition to ascertain if the same
17:43:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.218.340.aarr
17:43:28 [MikeSmith]
s/don't think/John_Boyer: don't think/
17:43:57 [Gregory]
architectural consistency is usually an argument when 1 group of people trying to influence another group; using W3C forces browser venders to implement XForms; if you don that they'll just leave
17:43:58 [hyatt]
agreed with dbaron
17:44:07 [Preston]
17:44:08 [hsivonen]
my point was that the product vision for XForms Transitional should be demonstrated in a non-standard product before trying to standardize authoring-product interop
17:44:09 [dbaron]
an argument on either side of the debate
17:44:18 [ddailey]
17:44:20 [Zakim]
- +1.218.340.aarr
17:44:27 [Gregory]
Murray: can everyone speaking ID themselves?
17:44:35 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
17:44:35 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Design Principles and Requirements" taken up [from DanC]
17:44:36 [Gregory]
DanC: ok, more of that is welcome, i guess
17:44:47 [MikeSmith]
s/architectural consistency/dbaron: architectural consistency/
17:44:53 [chaals]
[it would help with identifying people if speakers named themselves...]
17:45:12 [mjs]
MJS: I was the one who said that I think the most useful way to express XForms Transitional would be as a set of change requests relative to Web Forms 2 w/ use case justifications (just to clarify)
17:45:13 [Voluminous]
Voluminous has joined #html-wg
17:45:15 [dbaron]
s/influence another group/make another group implement something/
17:45:47 [Gregory]
DanC: item 2 - summary: W3C process has WGs publishing every 3 months; useful; HTML5 spec on our agenda - interesting, but small miracle to get published as WD in june; design principles - don't break the web;
17:46:08 [John_Boyer]
JB: The best approach might actually be to identify the use cases, then adopt WF2 or XForms or hybrid solutions as they become apparent based on the use cases
17:46:14 [MikeSmith]
s/most useful way/mjs: most useful way/
17:46:21 [Gregory]
design principles are an attempt to capture values of community, but don't tend to be hard-and-fast measurable things;
17:46:28 [johnst]
johnst has left #html-wg
17:46:46 [chaals]
s/design principles/DanC: design principles/
17:46:55 [Zakim]
17:46:57 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has left #html-wg
17:47:28 [Gregory]
hixie did a lot of research on what is implemented; why does it have to be defined this way? because of dependencies; arguments pro and con; role of requirements in discussion
17:47:59 [MikeSmith]
s/hixie/... hixie/
17:48:00 [Gregory]
outcome of having requirements abstract design to allow those not directly participating in this group; requirements document should be understandable by all
17:48:25 [MikeSmith]
s/outcome of/... outcome of/
17:48:30 [Gregory]
W3C strives for consensus, but in this case didn't get it; so, we made a WG; if not happy about charter, there is a long line before you
17:48:34 [Zakim]
17:48:50 [Gregory]
browser threshold - this WG can set it as requirement
17:49:04 [Gregory]
interested in possibility of W3C goals and requirements
17:49:22 [Gregory]
anyone who disagrees with one of the design principles so far
17:49:35 [dbaron]
s/anyone/Matt Raymond: anyone/
17:49:41 [Zakim]
17:49:42 [Gregory]
Murray: disagree with one; related to semantic markup and effectively deprecating presentational markup
17:49:43 [DanC]
looking at
17:50:21 [Gregory]
seperation of concerns: spec should enable the seperation; does not require; specifically states that some presentational markup be retained
17:50:27 [ddailey]
17:50:33 [schepers]
17:50:40 [glazou]
I hear what mjs said but I'm with Murray here
17:50:40 [MattRaymond]
17:50:47 [Gregory]
could say "look thing is stablized; will give WG x amount of time to review"
17:51:04 [mjs]
17:51:50 [anne5]
it's a wiki
17:51:51 [Gregory]
Murray: think i would appreciate if have a designated activity with goal and deadline for producing such a document; should be an open process; if opinions in conflict, need to incorporate and synthesize down to what can be agreed upon
17:51:52 [hyatt]
300 people aren't going to agree on much of anything :)
17:51:57 [anne5]
17:51:58 [MikeSmith]
s/seperation of concerns/Maciej: separation of concerns/
17:52:08 [Hixie]
there's no way we'll _ever_ have everyone agree on everything in a group this size
17:52:10 [Gregory]
he who contributes owns it -- DanC
17:52:11 [glazou]
hyatt, unless you suggest a beer
17:52:20 [DanC]
ack ddailey
17:52:21 [josef]
josef has joined #html-wg
17:52:25 [Gregory]
process now ad hoc, here to talk about making it more formal
17:52:40 [hsivonen]
the point of design principles is to document what we decided on point where there *is* likely to be disagreement
17:52:53 [Zakim]
17:52:54 [hsivonen]
s/on point/on points/
17:52:56 [chaals]
s/he who contributes owns it -- DanC/DanC: People who do work should have a fair bit of say over how it is done/
17:53:12 [Gregory]
everyone has been allowed to do anything;
17:53:27 [MikeSmith]
DanC: The way you volunteer is by starting to do some work.
17:53:36 [Gregory]
proscriptive and descriptive -- prescriptive: here are principles you should believe in
17:53:51 [timbl]
17:53:55 [Gregory]
if dissent on set of principles group expected to abide by, then group discohesive
17:54:10 [Hixie]
in a group this size there will _always_ be dissent, the whole point of these principles is to set the line for where people _will_ disagree
17:54:22 [Gregory]
sometimes good to keep watering down until everyone agrees, sometimes have to say no full agreement, but need something
17:54:27 [timbl]
q+ to suggest that the operation of a group coming to a more or less shared set of principles is an important step
17:54:32 [MikeSmith]
s/proscriptive and/Murray: proscriptive and/
17:54:42 [Gregory]
don't reinvent the wheel -- don't agree; tends to stifle innovation
17:54:59 [Gregory]
DanC: not really doing innovation, doing standards work
17:55:03 [MikeSmith]
s/if dissent/... if dissent/
17:55:06 [Gregory]
a lot of stuff already proposed
17:55:25 [Zakim]
17:55:26 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute ??P2
17:55:26 [Zakim]
??P2 should now be muted
17:56:01 [DanC]
ack schepers
17:56:08 [timbl]
17:56:18 [timbl]
17:57:01 [Gregory]
DougS: looked through design principles again; in past thought some very vague; looking through them, don't actually have an understanding of where we are; problem with adopting now is how do we test them? wiki documents or official documents
17:57:03 [ddailey]
ddailey has left #html-wg
17:57:10 [chaals]
zakim, who is making noise?
17:57:21 [Zakim]
chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: anne5 (13%), Doug_Schepers (5%), ??P13 (13%)
17:57:24 [Gregory]
a tool to expedite work;
17:57:37 [Gregory]
DougS: not all of them are clear in what the implications of them are
17:57:38 [chaals]
zakim, mute ??p13
17:57:38 [Zakim]
??P13 should now be muted
17:57:39 [MikeSmith]
s/Murray: proscriptive and/David_D: prescriptive and/
17:57:56 [Gregory]
need an i ching or tarot card deck - whatever you see in it is what you belive
17:58:05 [hyatt]
i think don't break the web is pretty obvious
17:58:17 [Gregory]
don't break the web means a thousand things to a thousand people
17:58:24 [timbl]
q+ to suggest that the point of adopting them is the value of the journey: that in discussing them, disagreements and lacks of understanding may be removed from the group. The discussion may help develop a lot of common understanding in a group
17:58:46 [Gregory]
elaborate the 2 paragraphs currently extant; possible not usefol to adopt as group
17:59:26 [olli]
olli has joined #html-wg
17:59:33 [Zakim]
17:59:38 [Zakim]
17:59:44 [DanC]
(did I set any expecatations about telcon duration? 90min is what I have in mind now. i.e. 30 min from now.)
18:00:16 [Gregory]
ChrisW: don't break the web as a browser means when deploy new browser, don't disturb systems or ecosystems already extant; need to keep errors in it otherwise infuriate web authors; many are ignorant of specs and reflexively blame browser (Chris' interpretation);
18:00:32 [anne5]
DanC, don't think so
18:00:44 [Zakim]
18:01:38 [Gregory]
alternate interpretation from ChrisW: don't have a revolution that overturns what has worked in the past; easier to progressively deploy UAs; with XHTML required all UAs be able to accept a different mime-type; IE6 didn't support that mime-type; ended up with server side multiple delivery options to support XHTML;
18:01:40 [Zakim]
18:01:44 [hyatt]
agree with chrisw
18:02:15 [Gregory]
Dan: point of order: duration of telecon: 60 minutes mean adjourn now, have bridge reserved for another hour
18:02:27 [JacksonW]
agree on 60
18:02:29 [chaals]
ack me
18:02:43 [MattRaymond]
18:02:48 [Gregory]
end now (2); end in half an hour (4);
18:02:54 [Gregory]
DanC: 30 more minutes
18:02:55 [glazou]
I have to go, bye people
18:03:02 [Chris]
bye Daniel
18:03:06 [Gregory]
DanC: HTML5 and design principles
18:03:22 [chaals]
zakim, mute me
18:03:22 [Zakim]
chaals should now be muted
18:03:23 [Zakim]
18:03:30 [DanC]
ack mjs
18:04:31 [Zakim]
18:05:10 [Gregory]
Lachy: 2 things - tried to document any principles where there is disagreement - that's why there is a disputed section; have to make decision as group; can't have things both ways; called for current version to be adopted so that everyone working off same document; if make W3C note, there will be an official standard procedure to make comments, objections, etc.; if want more consensus, putting it up as a W3C note would be good
18:05:27 [Lachy]
Gregory, I didn't say that
18:05:29 [schepers]
DS: if "Don't break the Web" is put in the disputed category, I'll rescind my objection
18:05:30 [sierk]
sierk has changed the topic to: HTML WG 26 Apr telcon, conf call code is 4865
18:05:32 [dbaron]
18:05:43 [Gregory]
what edits are in the work? if stable can work quicker
18:05:59 [Gregory]
need to make public; elaborate on things - eliminate what can be interpreted multiple ways
18:06:01 [DanC]
q+ MM
18:06:04 [DanC]
ack timbl
18:06:04 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to suggest that the point of adopting them is the value of the journey: that in discussing them, disagreements and lacks of understanding may be removed from the
18:06:07 [Zakim]
... group. The discussion may help develop a lot of common understanding in a group
18:07:12 [henrik]
??P6 is Henrik
18:07:12 [MikeSmith]
TimBL: The "don't break the Web" issue is one of the reasons the TAG was formed
18:07:39 [DanC]
s/The "don't break the Web" issue/questions about design principles of web architecture/
18:08:19 [DanC]
ack mm
18:08:20 [Gregory]
TBL: design principles very hairy; TAG trying to determine what makes web work and what breaks it; journey of arriving on consensus valuable; have whole group in on discussion, creates common vocabulary and trust in one another; part of formation of group; hope for web was that all this discussion would happen via pointers; ease of work internally important
18:08:21 [polin8]
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18:08:46 [Gregory]
Murray: versioning - decision has to be made; example of decision made by WG rather than a document that discussed principles
18:10:14 [mjs]
18:10:16 [Gregory]
document that discusses principles should be a basket of low-hanging fruit; extrapolated doucment from technical architecture document and applied to HTML; discussions on principles widely disputed; might be interesting for concerted statement to be made, but if too large a number of objectors, weakens the spec; need something that everyone can point to and work towards
18:10:35 [Gregory]
if find significant disagreement, have to remove them from requirements
18:11:05 [Gregory]
DanC: get 2 reviewers and see what happens after a week
18:11:19 [Gregory]
another possibility is go around the table - 27 people - too many
18:11:25 [Hixie]
27 is too few, given the size of our group, not too many :-)
18:11:40 [Zakim]
18:12:03 [Gregory]
proposal: recruit 2 reviewers now, take a week to review current text, give as much editorial comments as possible, and a final i agree or disagree
18:12:39 [Gregory]
B) another approach: recruit 2 people, and talk again
18:12:57 [Gregory]
Q: reviewers or editors?
18:13:16 [Gregory]
review in more formal sense; someone who can say on behalf of group this is something we can publish
18:13:16 [DanC]
A: recruit 2 reviewers; largely delegate to them.
18:13:39 [DanC]
B: recruit 2 reviewers; then talk more
18:13:44 [DanC]
C: none of the above
18:13:48 [schepers]
DS: I think the reviewers should be people not involved in writing the document
18:13:54 [DanC]
18:13:55 [Patrick]
18:13:56 [Chris]
18:13:57 [JacksonW]
18:13:58 [Debi]
18:13:59 [Hixie]
shouldn't we also let people who aren't on the call be able to decide this?
18:14:00 [Gregory]
choice A: comfortable with what is there now; choice B: reviewers lead discussion in group; C) neither
18:14:04 [lbolstad]
18:14:05 [Julian]
18:14:05 [CarolK]
18:14:06 [MattRaymond]
18:14:12 [mjs]
18:14:13 [mikko_honkala]
18:14:14 [gavin]
18:14:15 [pasquale]
18:14:17 [MikeSmith]
18:14:18 [Gregory]
18:14:18 [anne5]
18:14:20 [hsivonen]
18:14:20 [Lachy]
18:14:20 [schepers]
18:14:21 [henrik]
18:14:23 [sierk]
18:14:23 [Hixie]
18:14:24 [dbaron]
18:14:24 [beowulf]
18:14:26 [DanC]
hixie, we're not making a technical decision
18:14:28 [jgraham]
18:14:28 [Deeder]
18:14:30 [Sander]
18:14:33 [DanC]
just thinking about how to use email etc.
18:14:47 [arun]
18:14:55 [polin8]
polin8 has joined #html-wg
18:14:58 [Gregory]
B = 15
18:15:11 [chaals]
B above A by small margin
18:15:13 [Gregory]
who's offering to review?
18:15:35 [Gregory]
critical issues, editorial nits, etc.
18:15:41 [Gregory]
offers for review?
18:15:52 [Gregory]
Ian H (hixie) offered earlier
18:16:13 [chaals]
18:16:16 [Chris]
So will cwilso. :)
18:16:19 [DanC]
ACTION IanH: review and advise the wG on whether to publish, or whether critical problems remain
18:16:33 [DanC]
ACTION DougS: review and advise the wG on whether to publish, or whether critical problems remain
18:16:41 [Gregory]
DougS: would like to define role what is formal review process
18:16:59 [Gregory]
one email that says i'm done reviewing and thumbs-up or thumbs-down
18:17:00 [Hixie]
it'll be done within the hour
18:17:09 [Gregory]
deadline: by next monday
18:17:20 [gavin]
we lost zakim
18:17:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-wg
18:17:42 [Gregory]
if reviewers make comments requesting editorial or substantive changes, should Ian change document?
18:17:52 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum
18:17:52 [Zakim]
I do not know what agendum had been taken up, DanC
18:17:56 [Gregory]
when make substantive changes, PLEASE alert mailing list (public-html)
18:17:57 [dbaron]
Zakim, this is HTML
18:17:57 [Zakim]
ok, dbaron; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
18:18:12 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 4
18:18:12 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
18:18:18 [DanC]
Topic: HTML spec baseline
18:18:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.519.477.aaaa
18:19:07 [Hixie] and
18:19:11 [Hixie]
whatever is current when it happens
18:19:26 [Gregory]
need to track versioning
18:19:34 [Hixie]
revision 1000
18:19:36 [DanC]
what's the current version? or md5sum?
18:19:37 [Gregory]
need version number pasted into IRC
18:19:45 [DanC]
really? v1000?
18:19:45 [Lachy]
785 is the latest
18:19:48 [Hixie]
(no, we're at 785)
18:19:59 [Hixie]
(but the revision being proposed is whatever is latest when we take it)
18:20:01 [DanC]
and md5sum?
18:20:31 [Gregory]
proposal is to use Web Applications 1.0 as base
18:20:42 [anne5]
18:20:42 [Zakim]
18:20:43 [Zakim]
18:20:50 [Gregory]
DanC: want to know what version we are discussing/using as a basis for work
18:20:53 [Hixie]
today's version is 785
18:20:58 [Hixie]
but it'll probably be 788 by tonight
18:21:04 [Hixie]
and 800 by next week
18:21:05 [Hixie]
18:21:10 [Gregory]
no pointer in original proposal
18:21:22 [Gregory]
Dave Hyatt as editor? open floor
18:21:26 [josef]
anne5: thanks, is there such a tracker for wf2 too?
18:21:31 [Hixie]
i mean, the spec has revved twice just in this phone call!
18:21:39 [hsivonen]
it doesn't make sense to throw away the work WHATWG will do by the time this WG reaches the decision
18:21:44 [anne5]
josef, wf2 probably won't get changes anymore
18:21:47 [Gregory]
B slightly over A
18:22:04 [Gregory]
Murray: designated reviewers?
18:22:06 [anne5]
josef, the idea is to fold it in
18:22:19 [Gregory]
DanC: Ian Hickson and Doug Schepers - everyone else can play along
18:22:45 [DanC] is a useful sync mechanism
18:23:18 [Gregory]
put the question today and give WG a group a week to answer
18:23:27 [Gregory]
request: chair think out loud
18:25:04 [schepers]
18:25:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-wg
18:25:18 [schepers]
18:25:26 [dbaron]
Zakim, this is HTML
18:25:26 [Zakim]
ok, dbaron; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
18:25:30 [Gregory]
item 4 on agenda - have proposal from 9 april 2007 to use HTML5 and WF2 as basis for discussion; if adopt proposal, need to review all proposals; conversation between editors and proposer on public-html; if issue particularly sticky, alert chairs and will be discussed under time limit
18:25:36 [Hixie]
the current whatwg spec is definitely not in stone
18:25:45 [Hixie]
i have 1000s of outstanding comments to deal with still
18:26:05 [Gregory]
need new information before anything is changed; would not have status of resolved technical opinion; nothing set in stone; if want addition, have to justify it to WG
18:26:32 [Gregory]
sufficient to send email to ask questions or use WBS forms?
18:26:51 [Gregory]
chairs should make this decision and welcome any disagreement
18:27:02 [Lachy]
I don't want more +1s on the list, use a WBS form
18:27:10 [Gregory]
already at that point - just want to word the question correctly
18:27:10 [dbaron]
s/chairs should/Murray: chairs should/
18:27:13 [JacksonW]
18:27:15 [mjs]
I would also suggest a WBS form
18:27:24 [schepers]
18:27:30 [mjs]
for something of this scale it's good to have things on the record
18:27:42 [Gregory]
WBS probably most straightfoward thing; ChrisW want your eyeballs
18:27:52 [Gregory]
DanC and ChrisW will speak tomorrow
18:28:15 [MattRaymond]
What is WBS?
18:28:27 [DanC]
18:28:34 [Gregory]
will put into WBS form; one vote per member; if votes are all yes and abstaining then carries; if objections then chairs will decide the question
18:28:54 [DanC]
invited experts also get a vote each
18:28:57 [Gregory]
one vote per member; invited experts also get to vote
18:29:17 [JacksonW]
gotta go... thanks folks
18:29:21 [DanC]
ack schepers
18:29:22 [Gregory]
not looking for majority or popular vote, but consensus; if object have a substatial reason why
18:29:22 [Zakim]
18:29:54 [Hixie]
i gotta go, i have another meeting
18:29:58 [Gregory]
DougS: if issue comes up were wide amount of disagreement - who decides: chairs? editors? to what degree are editors responsible to WG?
18:30:15 [Gregory]
DanC: consensus means many yes votes and no objection
18:30:31 [MattRaymond]
18:30:34 [Zakim]
18:30:35 [Gregory]
if lack consensus chairs decide
18:30:42 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: put the HTML spec baseline discussion by WBS in the next day or so
18:30:58 [MattRaymond]
Does consensus require absolute zero against?
18:31:01 [Gregory]
DanC: will give everyone a full week to respond
18:31:10 [Gregory]
DanC: adjourn formal meeting
18:31:13 [chaals]
[please generally give a week for WBS questions]
18:31:21 [DanC]
18:31:22 [Gregory]
consensus = zero against
18:31:29 [Gregory]
next meeting?
18:31:41 [Gregory]
will we meet with some regularity?
18:31:51 [Gregory]
DanC: authorized by charter to meet up to 1 time per week
18:32:07 [Zakim]
18:32:30 [Gregory]
DanC: would like to have 2 scheduled times: one good for North America and Europe one good for Asia - rotate them
18:33:04 [hsivonen]
I suggest preferring mailing list over telecons
18:33:27 [Gregory]
scribe's correction: not rotate meetings, but on decision of chair
18:33:40 [chaals]
s/rotate them/swap between them based on whatever the chair feels like that week/
18:34:35 [Gregory]
ChrisW: don't want a weekly telecon; volume of email already swamping; telecon not going to help that dramatically; do want to meet regularly - once every month; actually twice every month with overlapping times
18:34:55 [Gregory]
propose a time anyone?
18:34:58 [Zakim]
18:35:11 [Zakim]
18:35:18 [chaals]
ack me
18:35:25 [hsivonen]
my reason for wanting to prefer email is that with the telecon ideas don't seem to be communicated as accurately
18:35:28 [mikko_honkala]
18:35:30 [Zakim]
18:35:30 [dbaron]
1pm thursday is, this time of year:
18:35:32 [MattRaymond]
18:35:37 [dbaron]
UTC: Thu 2007-04-26 17:00:00 UTC
18:35:37 [dbaron]
Auckland: Fri 2007-04-27 05:00:00 NZST
18:35:37 [dbaron]
Sydney: Fri 2007-04-27 03:00:00 EST
18:35:37 [dbaron]
Tokyo: Fri 2007-04-27 02:00:00 JST
18:35:37 [dbaron]
Seoul: Fri 2007-04-27 02:00:00 KST
18:35:38 [Gregory]
this time (1 pm EDST) is not good for asian participation
18:35:38 [dbaron]
Beijing: Fri 2007-04-27 01:00:00 CST
18:35:38 [CarolK]
18:35:41 [Zakim]
18:35:42 [dbaron]
Helsinki: Thu 2007-04-26 20:00:00 EEST
18:35:44 [dbaron]
Paris: Thu 2007-04-26 19:00:00 CEST
18:35:46 [dbaron]
London: Thu 2007-04-26 18:00:00 BST
18:35:51 [dbaron]
Boston: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 EDT
18:35:53 [dbaron]
San Francisco:Thu 2007-04-26 10:00:00 PDT
18:36:06 [Zakim]
18:36:08 [Gregory]
early evening in europe - earlier in the day would probably suit europe better
18:36:14 [Gregory]
depends upon who you are
18:36:26 [Debi]
18:36:31 [Gregory]
who cares about 1 hour earlier or later on thursday afternoon
18:36:33 [Debi]
18:36:36 [Gregory]
Lachy: earlier better
18:36:37 [Zakim]
18:36:41 [Debi]
Debi has left #html-wg
18:36:52 [Gregory]
DanC: trying to pick another time when sun is up in OZ
18:37:18 [primal1]
primal1 has joined #html-wg
18:37:46 [Gregory]
DougS: for SVG meeting east coast US (1 am boston time)
18:38:17 [Gregory]
DanC: midnight chairing not convenient, but ChrisW could chair
18:38:21 [dbaron]
midnight Boston is:
18:38:23 [dbaron]
UTC: Thu 2007-04-26 04:00:00 UTC
18:38:23 [dbaron]
Auckland: Thu 2007-04-26 16:00:00 NZST
18:38:23 [dbaron]
Sydney: Thu 2007-04-26 14:00:00 EST
18:38:23 [dbaron]
Tokyo: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 JST
18:38:23 [dbaron]
Seoul: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 KST
18:38:24 [dbaron]
Beijing: Thu 2007-04-26 12:00:00 CST
18:38:26 [dbaron]
Helsinki: Thu 2007-04-26 07:00:00 EEST
18:38:28 [dbaron]
Paris: Thu 2007-04-26 06:00:00 CEST
18:38:30 [dbaron]
London: Thu 2007-04-26 05:00:00 BST
18:38:32 [dbaron]
Boston: Thu 2007-04-26 00:00:00 EDT
18:38:37 [dbaron]
San Francisco:Wed 2007-04-25 21:00:00 PDT
18:38:41 [Gregory]
DanC: not trying to pick a hard-and-fast time;
18:39:02 [Gregory]
Chaals: go for 10pm Boston time or 9pm Boston time good for asian participation
18:39:09 [mw22_]
mw22_ has joined #html-wg
18:39:28 [Gregory]
nine hour difference between Boston time and Australian time
18:39:40 [Zakim]
18:39:57 [Gregory]
DanC: ChrisW - you probably will be chairing the asian meeting; DanC is happy to chair at this time 1pm EDST once a month
18:40:39 [Gregory]
action ChrisW: pick asian teleconference time
18:40:43 [anne5]
18:40:44 [DanC]
ACTION Chris: try to find a Seattle/OZ time
18:40:49 [dbaron]
Beijing and Boston are 12 hours apart in July
18:41:11 [Gregory]
chaals: 10pm eastern will get you most of asia and OZ
18:41:41 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:41:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
18:41:43 [DanC]
Gregory, I'll send out the edited record
18:41:45 [DanC]
thanks for scribing!
18:41:55 [Gregory]
do you need IRC log?
18:42:15 [xover]
Perhaps find timezone distribution of of participants and find optimum + alternative times on that basis?
18:42:17 [Gregory]
2 meetings a month - one at 1 pm Boston time; one which ChrisW will pick for asian time
18:42:31 [Zakim]
18:42:33 [Zakim]
18:42:33 [Zakim]
18:42:33 [Gregory]
DanC: unseats himself from the chair
18:42:35 [Zakim]
- +1.519.477.aaaa
18:42:37 [Zakim]
18:42:38 [Zakim]
18:42:38 [Chris]
bye all
18:42:41 [Zakim]
18:42:44 [Zakim]
18:42:50 [Zakim]
18:43:28 [DanC]
xover, you're welcome to do that research, but I expect the actual optimum to involve so many factors that I'm not sure how valuable it will be.
18:43:53 [dbaron]
timezone of participant doesn't give you all that much information about when they can attend meetings
18:43:55 [schepers]
I think meeting twice a month would be reasonable
18:43:56 [Gregory]
Dan: do you want slash need my IRC log?
18:44:24 [Gregory]
if you're going to edit the minutes, should i refrain from running RRSagent?
18:44:55 [MikeSmith]
I agree with dbaron about timezone not telling all that much
18:45:17 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
18:45:17 [RRSAgent]
18:45:21 [Gregory]
subteam meetings are advanced via telecons, not huge groups such as HMTL WG
18:45:22 [DanC]
Gregory, that's all the log I need
18:45:25 [dbaron]
I know people who wake up at 5am and people who go to sleep at 5am.
18:45:31 [MikeSmith]
18:45:31 [Gregory]
ok, dan
18:45:32 [schepers]
yeah, I'm East Coast US, but I'd much rather meet afternoon/evening/night than morning
18:45:46 [MikeSmith]
my yep was to dbaron
18:46:05 [Gregory]
plus one to DougS' comment
18:46:08 [MikeSmith]
agreeing about times when people are awake
18:46:14 [Zakim]
18:46:25 [MikeSmith]
and some people especially in Japan can't call in during work hours
18:46:43 [schepers]
MikeSmith: are they just lazy?
18:47:06 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:47:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
18:47:17 [MikeSmith]
I think best time for people in Japan is after 8pm
18:47:46 [DanC]
Meeting: HTML WG 1st Teleconference
18:47:48 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:47:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
18:47:55 [DanC]
Chair: DanC
18:48:08 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:48:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
18:48:24 [DanC]
Zakim, list attendees
18:48:24 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita, Lachy, chaals, Debi_Orton, [Mozilla], JacksonW, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala,
18:48:28 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:48:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
18:48:28 [Zakim]
... dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson, TimBL, mjs, chrisW, hsivonen, mikko_honkala.a, MikeSmith.a, +1.519.477.aaaa
18:50:13 [anne5]
DanC, I'm still not sure why the XForms WG would not be obliged to answer my question. After all, it seems that the HTML WG generally feels WF2 is a good idea...
18:50:35 [anne5]
Or did John Boyer say that and not you and the minutes are wrong?
18:50:57 [DanC]
what the HTML WG feels on the topic hasn't been decided.
18:51:13 [Preston]
"HTML WG generally feels WF2 is a good idea" -= me
18:51:16 [DanC]
you're coming to conclusions based on a lack of information.
18:51:45 [Gregory]
sorry about misattributions - first priority was to try and catch what was being said
18:51:48 [Preston]
Or perhaps from a lack of discussion, as yet.
18:51:59 [anne5]
based on majority vote after the HTML5 proposal was made
18:52:20 [mjs]
well, we're about to have a straw poll to find out more officially what the HTML WG thinks
18:52:36 [DanC]
good point; I keep forgetting that forms is part of the HTML5 package
18:52:36 [anne5]
yeah, I suppose
18:52:42 [mjs]
if at that point the Forms WG thinks that HTML forms features in the draft are insufficient, I do think they are obliged to say why
18:52:51 [Preston]
Missed that. Perhaps the vote was more for "we should think about this".
18:53:09 [anne5]
I also thing we should consider the point dbaron made about trying to get something implemented in browsers
18:53:26 [DanC]
yes, dbaron's point is well made.
18:53:42 [heycam]
heycam has joined #html-wg
18:54:01 [sierk]
Folks, I have to leave now. Bye
18:54:13 [anne5]
18:54:21 [DanC]
I overstate the case when I say they're not obliged to say why; but WF2 proponents have an equal obligation to say why it is the way it is.
18:54:22 [dbaron]
For what it's worth, I wasn't saying that architectural consistency is bad -- I'm just saying that when it comes up is a debate I think it's a sign that the debate is often really about something else.
18:54:27 [sierk]
sierk has left #html-wg
18:54:36 [hsivonen]
fwiw, I also think it is perfectly reasonable to ask the forms wg for specific comments on WF 2.0
18:55:34 [Gregory]
plus 1 to hsivonen's last comment re asking forms wg for specific comments
18:55:39 [anne5]
I meant to say on the telcon that WF2 has taken as much from XForms as possible into account while remaining compatible with the existing architecture.
18:55:56 [anne5]
Where existing architecture is deployed HTML content and implementations.
18:56:05 [hsivonen]
it is less reasonable to ask to work from XForms Transitional, because the XForms Transitional isn't a spec you could interoperably implement by just reading the document
18:56:13 [Gregory]
anne - you might want to reiterate that on-list
18:56:28 [hsivonen]
this is why I suggested preferring email
18:56:46 [hsivonen]
we are now trying to explain and guess what who said
18:57:41 [hsivonen]
s/the XForms Transitional/the XForms Transitional draft/
18:57:56 [josef]
this has already found its way onto the list now ;)
18:58:11 [Gregory]
my instructions were to capture the thoughts comments and actions; if you are misattributed, contact DanC or reply to the posting of the minutes announcement on public-html
18:58:15 [anne5]
also, another reason it's a valid question is that the XForms Transitional draft is partially a copy & paste of WF2 features
18:58:29 [schepers]
I also agree with hsivonen that there should be a point-by-point assessment
18:58:46 [hsivonen]
Gregory: what I said wasn't in any way meant as a criticism to the scribe
18:58:49 [josef]
Preston: I've opened a student thesis topic about evaluating potential of forms, but I cannot say whether someone will work on it or not
18:59:13 [Gregory]
hsivonen: none taken - just striving for accuracy
18:59:27 [Lachy]
several of WF2 proponents have given feedback about XF Trans, yet, I haven't heard any substantial feedback from the XForms proponents about WF2.
18:59:37 [schepers]
I think the scribe did a lousy job :)
18:59:54 [Gregory]
thanks, doug :P
19:00:02 [schepers]
any time, Gregory
19:00:22 [chaals]
Lars Erik Bolstad was on the call
19:00:51 [anne5]
he said something on IRC
19:01:13 [Preston]
Josef: Interesting - what would that mean? Are you going to inflict the working group on the student?
19:03:52 [josef]
Preston: no, but we had several issues with XForms (and even more with traditional forms), and the work would be to add some WF2 generator code to a uni project and to evaluate its strengths and weaknesses afterwards. There will probably be no browser-related implementation work, but in case of implementations issues, hunting them down would be part of the evaluation. Having an overview about which rendering engine supports WF2 to which extent would be nice.
19:04:04 [Gregory]
GJR;s list of attendees: Patrick Ion; Mike Smith; Gavin Sharp; Charles McN (chaals); Lachlan Hunt (lachy); Ian Hickson (hixie); Preston Banister; Ken Savant, Karl Dubost; Michael Cooper; Tim Berners-Lee; David Daley; John St ?; Julian, Anne (anne5); Debbi Orton; Matt Raymond; Olivier Gendrin; Mikko Honkala; Henrik; Shunsuke; Patrick; Dan Hyatt; Jackson W; John Boyer; Pasquale; Carol K; Jackson Wilson; Mike Smith; Doug Schepers; David Baron; Adele; Arun from
19:04:21 [hyatt]
Dave Hyatt, not Dan Hyatt
19:04:35 [hyatt]
but if you want to call me dan i'll respond to it! ;)
19:04:45 [Gregory]
sorry dave - i SHOULD have a better aural buffer and a better memory...
19:04:46 [hsivonen]
Gregory: Henri Sivonen (hsivonen)
19:04:57 [Gregory]
thanks henri - i'll add you to the list
19:04:59 [anne5]
josef, Opera 9 has an implementation
19:05:21 [anne5]
(with some known problems, obviously)
19:05:42 [Gregory]
dave - even if i call you dan, i won't call you late for dinner...
19:06:02 [chaals]
Arun Ranganathan, Lars Erik Bolstad
19:06:36 [anne5]
josef, tests: and
19:06:57 [anne5]
josef, if you search on Google you should be able to find some scripted libraries that implement the controls for Internet Explorer, etc.
19:07:04 [Hixie]
Hixie has joined #html-wg
19:07:16 [Gregory]
GJR counts 40 participants in his list, plus DanC and me
19:07:23 [Gregory]
so that would make 42 on record
19:07:33 [Lachy]
19:07:36 [anne5]
josef, has some demo's
19:07:46 [anne5]
19:07:50 [anne5]
problem solved
19:08:07 [beowulf]
what was the question again?
19:08:13 [anne5]
19:08:15 [anne5]
19:08:39 [Lachy]
beowulf, the question of life, the universe and everything
19:08:43 [Preston]
" If you were using Internet Explorer 6 on a Windows machine or Opera 9, this demo would actually work! " (looking at )
19:09:21 [zcorpan]
"how many participated in the telecon?" == "what is the answer to life, universe and everything?"
19:09:30 [Preston]
19:09:42 [josef]
anne5: thanks, I've bookmarked those (in konqueror, how ironic...)
19:09:48 [anne5]
19:09:49 [oedipus]
scribe's count was 42
19:09:49 [Preston]
never can remember which it is
19:09:50 [Lachy]
zcorpan, yes, 42
19:10:18 [Zeros]
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19:10:36 [anne5]
the question is: what's the meaning of the question of which the answer is 42
19:10:41 [anne5]
or something
19:10:54 [Lachy]
what the?
19:11:08 [beowulf]
and when we work that out, weither by WBS or email, we'll have forgotten the answer
19:11:11 [Preston]
Douglas Adams ghost makes 43 ...
19:12:28 [jdandrea]
19:12:47 [jdandrea]
amazing how it worked out to 42, innit?
19:12:59 [Preston]
and slightly scary
19:14:52 [jdandrea]
Oh my:
19:17:02 [adele]
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19:17:06 [Sander]
drat, just too late
19:18:46 [Sander]
(not that I did anything of note other than vote, but...)
19:22:53 [chaals]
Sander, you can always write a corerction
19:23:00 [chaals]
when the minutes are posted.
19:23:03 [chaals]
19:27:19 [hyatt]
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19:29:57 [anne42]
ok, e-mailed the bit about WF2 on the mailng list
19:30:44 [anne42]
Sander, doesn't really matter whether you're on such lists or not
19:31:17 [anne42]
despite appearances, i wasn't quite 5 either
19:31:24 [chaals]
19:33:10 [schepers]
anne42, when do you turn 21?
19:34:19 [beowulf]
is that good or bad?
19:34:31 [schepers]
good question
19:34:42 [schepers]
I think it's bad
19:34:45 [jdandrea]
Bordeaux fĂȘte le Vin?
19:34:55 [schepers]
but ymmv
19:35:41 [chaals]
night folks
19:35:48 [schepers]
night, chaals
19:35:49 [beowulf]
19:36:11 [anne42]
schepers, 1st of August
19:36:25 [schepers]
whoah! that's soon!
19:36:46 [schepers]
I thought you were still 19 or something
19:37:19 [Preston]
Oh geez - how many else on this list are just slightly older than my kids ...
19:37:43 [schepers]
I am... if your kids are slightly younger than 38
19:37:51 [chaals]
19:38:14 [beowulf]
i'd be younger than your 38 year old kids
19:38:22 [beowulf]
but not by much
19:38:32 [anne42]
19:39:05 [beowulf]
i kinda wanted someone to ask timbl if he was on facebook or myspace and would he add them? i thought this was funny in my head
19:39:32 [chaals]
He is on My.Opera
19:39:33 [schepers]
beowulf: yes, it is funny... in your head :P
19:39:38 [beowulf]
19:39:52 [Hixie]
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19:40:05 [chaals]
I think he joins places that let him connect out of them, and use Foaf. I think there is one other somewhere...
19:40:06 [schepers]
I wonder if he's on LinkedIn?
19:47:02 [mjs]
hello again Hixie
19:47:28 [Hixie]
DanC: i think it's worth noting that while many of the wf2 proponents have made detailed reviews of the xforms transitional document, there really have not been any detailed reviews of the web forms 2 document from the xforms transitional proponents
19:49:27 [Hixie]
also, a number of people have told me privately, and some others have said here in this channel, that they didn't think the meeting was a good use of 40 man-hours; maybe we should have a poll for the people who were on the call to see whether there is consensus over the use of having telecons?
19:50:50 [hyatt]
i did not feel like the telecon was particularly productive
19:51:04 [hyatt]
but i admit to being biased against telecons in general
19:51:07 [Hixie]
or maybe telecons should be repositioned as just a way for people to get to talk to people about active topics, rather than the formal feel it had today (i mean, we made process decisions in today's call, which isn't to say we made technical decisions, but still, it seems bad to be making process decisions with less than 10% of the group present)
19:51:48 [Preston]
Personally, I am not especially fond of teleconferences. Better to reflect and occasionally summarize in writing.
19:51:57 [mjs]
I would prefer if the telecon made proposals to the mailing list (even for process issues, if it is one of significant weight) as opposed to trying to decide things
19:52:23 [mjs]
I am happy for such proposals to be either "any objections" format or a straw poll
19:52:43 [loic]
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19:53:03 [Preston]
(Oddly enough, had to drop out if the call for another call - just when Chris was saying something interesting.)
19:53:13 [Preston]
19:53:28 [mjs]
the decision to have designated reviewers for the design principles in particular is one that I would have preferred to decide over email, but since it was just a decision to have formal review and then talk more, I don't think it is a huge problem in practice
19:53:45 [Hixie]
yeah it's not clear to me what that decision really meant
19:53:48 [Hixie]
but anyway, i've sent my review
19:59:44 [Zeros]
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20:05:47 [anne42]
I suppose telcons might be useful if you're not conformtable with putting forward some suggestion
20:12:04 [PatrickDFIon]
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20:20:19 [mjs]
some people do feel more comfortable on the phone
20:20:29 [mjs]
I am ok with it as a discussion forum, not as much for a decision forum
20:21:42 [anne42]
20:22:02 [anne42]
I was surprised that people where put off by the way the design principles have been created...
20:22:14 [anne42]
to me it seemed like a natural process
20:23:03 [schepers]
I don't feel the same way, but I'm not surprised
20:23:14 [schepers]
wait, let me clarify
20:23:23 [mjs]
honestly, it started by me pasting things into the wiki that people said here
20:23:28 [mjs]
because folks asked me to
20:23:48 [mjs]
and I changed lots of things in response to feedback on the mailing list
20:24:02 [schepers]
I'm not surprised that people were put off by the creation process, but I don't share their concern
20:24:34 [mjs]
it was certainly ad-hoc, but I did not want to wait for a signed permission slip before typing up a rough draft
20:24:42 [schepers]
any time you come late to a conversation, you're likely to feel left out (to paraphrase TBL)
20:25:34 [anne42]
well, just say what you think
20:25:45 [anne42]
you won't be intentially ignored
20:26:02 [schepers]
my only remaining question is what effect is being aimed for by making them Official?
20:26:10 [anne42]
20:26:27 [schepers]
anne42, like I said, I'm not shy, so I'm not worried... lots of people are shy, though
20:26:33 [mjs]
I think about the same effect as any other non-normative W3C Note that is not a technical specification
20:26:48 [mjs]
schepers: I actively sought feedback and I believe I was polite in all my replies
20:26:49 [anne42]
people point to it for clarification, but it has no weight
20:27:23 [schepers]
mjs: I'm not implying you didn't or weren't
20:27:39 [anne42]
design decision FAQ
20:28:01 [mjs]
like the TAG AWWW document
20:28:15 [mjs]
schepers: well, I'm not sure how else to help shy people other than to ask for input and be nice to anyone who gives it
20:28:33 [PatrickDFIon]
20:28:47 [mjs]
well that is silly but ok
20:33:53 [schepers]
AWWW is rather more focused and less subject to interpretation compared to the proposed Design Principles
20:34:27 [anne42]
depends on who you ask I suppose
20:34:42 [schepers]
anne42: exactly what I mean
20:34:59 [anne42]
it's not what you're saying though :p
20:36:00 [schepers]
the fact that they are so open to interpretation is exactly my point... it should be a matter of "who you ask"... it should be clear prima facie
20:37:03 [anne42]
20:37:37 [schepers]
huh huh?
20:37:48 [schepers]
what's not clear about what I said?
20:37:57 [anne42]
"who you ask" and clear prima facie seem rather contradictory
20:38:05 [Philip`]
I think there was a missing "not"
20:38:06 [schepers]
20:38:12 [PatrickDFIon]
* Can anyone say where there is an archive of logs of this IRC channel?
20:38:19 [schepers]
20:38:22 [anne42]
it was in the topic once...
20:38:29 [anne42]
20:39:00 [anne42]
anne42 has changed the topic to: HTML WG | logged:
20:39:43 [PatrickDFIon]
anne42, wonderful. Thanks a lot.
20:41:11 [PatrickDFIon]
I am suprised that the design principles are not mostly treated like 'Mom and apple pie' statements. That is they are general exhortations that suggest a direction but are not rules, and are often so vague as to need interpretation immediately. As such a collection, the write-up was really rather good.
20:47:25 [mjs]
schepers: I think part of taking them to W3C Note status would be to clarify and add examples
20:47:35 [mjs]
schepers: AWWW is in fact pretty subjective
20:48:15 [mjs]
schepers: for instance, there seem to be widely varying interpretations of what "Orthogonal Specifications" means
20:49:55 [Philip`]
You shouldn't write specifications with the text rotated by 45 degrees?
20:50:31 [anne42]
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20:50:57 [mjs]
"URI Opacity" is also somewhat subject to interpretation
20:52:36 [Testin_this]
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20:52:58 [PatrickDFIon]
Can an example of an interpretation of "Orthogonal Specifications" which does not amount to meaning 'moving in independent dimensions' be given, please?
20:53:27 [schepers]
complementary but independent
20:53:39 [schepers]
and not conflicting
20:54:26 [anne42]
Not sure how much specs are really orthogonal though
20:54:57 [PatrickDFIon]
So in different and disjoint regions of the same dimensions? That would indeed suggest the choice of the geometrical epithet orthogonal wasn't quite right.
20:56:16 [mjs]
the specific example they give is of the HTML spec explicitly specifying something that they also expected to be in the HTTP spec, which HTTP then dropped
20:56:16 [PatrickDFIon]
s/dimensions/parameterized space/
20:56:29 [Zakim]
20:57:10 [anne42]
MikeSmith, trying to drive up phone bills?
20:57:21 [mjs]
note however that SVG 1.1 redefines the syntax of some CSS properties in a way that was maybe at one point expected to be done in CSS too, and The Director did not consider this a violation of orthogonality
20:57:42 [anne42]
20:57:50 [mjs]
(redefines by allowing them to lack units where CSS requires units and would require properties without units to be ignored)
20:58:11 [mjs]
so this is why I say it is open to many interpretations
20:59:36 [Zakim]
21:00:14 [schepers_]
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21:00:26 [anne42]
Zakim, who is here?
21:00:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P13 (muted), MikeSmith.a
21:00:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see schepers_, anne42, PatrickDFIon, Zeros, loic, Hixie, hyatt, heycam, mw22, primal1, Zakim, polin8, olli, Voluminous, dbaron, JacksonW, hasather, MikeSmith, mjs, edas,
21:00:31 [Zakim]
... gavin_, gavin, chaals, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, karl, tH, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, martijn, citoyen,
21:00:34 [Zakim]
... Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
21:00:49 [h3h]
21:01:11 [PatrickDFIon]
The general point that 'Orthogonal abstractions benefit from orthogonal specifications' seems to me a good one. A probelm with it is that what one WG is trying to solve may actually impinge on another aspect of things that could be abstracted separately, but there is no WG for that at the time.
21:01:14 [PatrickDFIon]
The general point that 'Orthogonal abstractions benefit from orthogonal specifications' seems to me a good one. A probelm with it is that what one WG is trying to solve may actually impinge on another aspect of things that could be abstracted separately, but there is no WG for that at the time.
21:01:26 [anne42]
Zakim, who is talking?
21:01:42 [Zakim]
anne42, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
21:02:42 [anne42]
Zakim, telcon ended
21:02:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'telcon ended', anne42
21:02:55 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
21:02:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P13 (muted), MikeSmith.a
21:03:02 [DanC]
Zakim, drop MikeSmith.a
21:03:02 [Zakim]
MikeSmith.a is being disconnected
21:03:04 [Zakim]
21:03:10 [DanC]
Zakim, drop ??P13
21:03:10 [Zakim]
??P13 is being disconnected
21:03:11 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
21:03:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita, Lachy, chaals, Debi_Orton, [Mozilla], JacksonW, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala, dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson,
21:03:15 [Zakim]
... TimBL, mjs, chrisW, hsivonen, mikko_honkala.a, MikeSmith.a, +1.519.477.aaaa
21:03:33 [anne42]
Zakim, bye
21:03:33 [Zakim]
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21:04:19 [zcorpan]
friendly bot
21:05:56 [anne42]
it requires silly things like ? at the end of questions...
21:06:08 [anne42]
but in general it works fairly well
21:07:18 [kingryan]
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21:07:30 [Philip`]
Was it originally designed, or has it just grown all the features that people want to make use of?
21:08:25 [anne42]
All I know is that it was made to assist telcons
21:08:42 [anne42]
It might be patchable too, but I'm not entirely sure about that
21:12:05 [zdenko]
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21:27:48 [DanC]
Philip`, definitely grown.
21:27:59 [DanC]
Ralph adds a new feature whenever he finds time to hack on it.
21:33:40 [Zeros]
Where is the telecon being logged to?
21:34:15 [Hixie]
RRSAgent, pointer?
21:34:15 [RRSAgent]
21:34:53 [Zeros]
21:52:10 [myakura]
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22:10:52 [Sander]
hmm, eight days since my first email to the list, and just now received my first spam on that (never before existing) email address.
22:15:03 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG logged:
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23:39:39 [Hixie]
was he offended by something?
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