13:50:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:50:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/25-xhtml-irc
13:50:44 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
13:50:55 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
13:50:55 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
13:51:10 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:51:34 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0030
13:51:47 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0030
13:52:42 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes Previous
13:52:49 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
13:54:24 <alessio> hi steven, shane, all...
13:54:46 <Steven> Hi there Alessio
13:56:12 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
14:00:38 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:00:38 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:00:39 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
14:00:39 <Zakim> +Steven
14:01:13 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:01:15 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:01:16 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:01:32 <Zakim> +??P36
14:02:17 <Zakim> +??P35
14:02:18 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
14:02:30 <yamx> I just joined in tel (Yam)
14:02:40 <alessio> idem, now
14:02:52 <alessio> i'm second
14:02:59 <Steven> zakim, ??P35 is alessio
14:02:59 <Zakim> +alessio; got it
14:03:06 <Steven> zakim, ??p36 is yamx
14:03:06 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
14:03:13 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:03:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, ShaneM, yamx, alessio
14:03:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, alessio, RRSAgent, Zakim, ShaneM, gavin_, Steven, Lachy, krijnh
14:03:22 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
14:03:33 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:03:47 <Rich> Rich has joined #xhtml
14:03:50 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:04:14 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:04:23 <Steven> Topic: Announcements
14:05:10 <Zakim> +??P6
14:05:39 <Steven> zakim, ??p6 is Rich
14:05:39 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
14:05:59 <Steven> Steven: THere are currently: 11 participants from 8 organizations
14:05:59 <Steven> 2 Invited Experts
14:06:04 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:06:50 <Steven> ... I know of 2 more organisations and one more invited expert in the pipeline
14:08:42 <Zakim> +Mark_Birbeck
14:08:44 <Rich> what dates?
14:09:24 <yamx> OMA has a meeting in Bangkok during June 11-15. (Yam)
14:09:28 <Steven> Steven: We have the option of meeting face-to-face 11-12 June
14:09:39 <Steven> ... at IBM in Hawthorne NY
14:09:43 <Rich> that does not interfere with my PF meetings in germany - a plus
14:10:37 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to ask WG by email if we should meet 11-12 June in NY
14:10:50 <ShaneM>  For the record, I can likely make that assuming nothing bad happens.  Ill parents etc.
14:10:51 <Steven> Steven: Otherwsie we will have an editors meeting instead
14:11:21 <Steven> s/sie/ise/
14:12:16 <Steven> Rich: DId the charter get updated?
14:12:20 <Steven> Steven: As far as I know
14:12:28 <Steven> s/DI/Di/
14:13:02 <ShaneM>  I nominate Steven as chair for this meeting.
14:13:19 <Steven> Rich: Do we have a chair yet?
14:13:23 <Steven> Steven: No, not yet
14:14:10 <yamx> I support the nomination (yam)
14:14:11 <ShaneM>  is the current topic "charter"
14:14:26 <Steven> Shane: For the record, the charter still talks about "The accesskey module"
14:15:11 <Steven> Topic: class/rel/rev/role and Curies 
14:15:11 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0023
14:16:17 <Steven> Mark: I can see a big difference, and no one else can
14:16:49 <Steven> ... it's not so much role vs class, but should role be rdf:type
14:17:08 <Steven> ... I'm not sure if everyone has tried it against all use cases
14:17:40 <Steven> ... My next email at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0028.html
14:17:48 <Steven> ... discusses it more fully
14:18:12 <Steven> ... I know that Rich followed up saying that we want rdf:type
14:18:39 <Steven> ... but when Raman first suggested role
14:18:49 <Steven> ... his oly example seemed to use role just as a hint
14:18:56 <Steven> s/oly/only/
14:19:27 <Steven> ... so to repeat, I'm not sure that all examples have been testedagainst the idea that it represents rdf:type
14:19:36 <Steven> s/tested/tested /
14:19:56 <Steven> ... does @role give us a hook, where the rdfness is implied
14:20:13 <Steven> ... or does role give us a first-order rdf:type?
14:20:14 <ShaneM>  is there another way to specify an rdf type in RDFa today?
14:20:36 <Steven> Mark: We could further refine this
14:20:51 <Steven> ... just as we say this is what we mean by rel/rev etc
14:20:58 <Steven> ... we can say this with role
14:21:28 <Steven> ... at present we use class, but the suggestion is to use role instead
14:21:45 <Steven> ... and there is longthand <ling rel="rdf:type"...
14:21:50 <Steven> s/ling/link/
14:21:57 <Steven> s/thand/hand/
14:22:08 <Steven> ... the question is about the shorthand
14:22:29 <Steven> Shane: I don't understand the subtleties
14:22:50 <Steven> ... but I am very worried about using @class because of the legacy
14:23:11 <Steven> ... on the other hand I understand the TF wants to take advantage of existing infrastructure
14:23:46 <Steven> Mark: One discussion is whether we should use @class at all
14:24:01 <Steven> ... I believe we should, though I accept that not everyone agrees
14:24:47 <Steven> ... I expected a Dan Brickly to jump in and say "Ah! rdf:type this or that...", and that didn't happen
14:25:13 <Steven> .. the 2 use cases at present are 1) Rich's case, where rdf:type is handy
14:25:46 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
14:25:55 <Steven> ...2) THe mozilla/firefox one, where the element aquires the properties associated with that role
14:25:59 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:26:18 <Steven> s/2/ 2/
14:26:28 <Steven> ... these are the accessibility extensions
14:27:09 <Steven> Rich: Role links to the rdf role taxonomy
14:27:13 <Zakim> -alessio
14:27:35 <alessio_> alessio_ has joined #xhtml
14:28:08 <Steven> ... SAP, Google, IBM are using this stuff
14:28:20 <Steven> .. and even IE is going to implement role!
14:28:37 <Zakim> +??P0
14:28:43 <Steven> ... (this is not official, but they really have to, to give access to the accessibility APIs)
14:28:55 <Steven> zakim, ??P0 is alessio
14:28:55 <Zakim> +alessio; got it
14:29:00 <alessio_> yep :)
14:29:07 <Steven> Mark: Will IE implement it in the same way?
14:29:34 <Steven> Rich: It might
14:29:56 <Steven> Mark: I'm trying to work out if it reflects on the role/rdf:type issue
14:30:33 <Steven> Shane: I think it should be rdf:type
14:30:37 <Steven> Rich: I agree
14:31:15 <markbirbeck> <div rdf:type="range"> ... </div>
14:31:20 <Steven> [Scribe got the last two wrong]
14:31:29 <Steven> SHane: I think role = rdf:type is fine
14:31:33 <Steven> s/SH/Sh/
14:31:56 <markbirbeck> Have we simply said that role == rdf:type? Have we just created a shorthand?
14:32:07 <Steven> Mark: THe problem is that if you make that decision once and for all, you can't undo it
14:32:12 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:32:14 <markbirbeck> <div role="range"> ... </div>
14:32:21 <Steven> ... better to define it per document
14:33:00 <markbirbeck> Something has a 'xh:role' of range...
14:33:02 <Steven> ... and define a mapping if needed for a particular document
14:33:35 <Rich> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/GUI/
14:35:31 <Steven> Steven: What about <p role="rss:description".>
14:35:39 <Steven> ... what is the rdf equivalent?
14:35:57 <Steven> ... if we say it is per document, then I can't process that generically
14:36:16 <Steven> Shane: THat should be @property
14:36:21 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:36:38 <Steven> Mark: No, because you need a predicate of type rdf:type
14:37:04 <Steven> ... because rss:description is not a predicate
14:37:10 <Steven> ... it is the object of a statement
14:39:04 <ShaneM>  I thought this was more correct:
14:39:04 <ShaneM> <div id="xframes" about="#xframes" role="rss:item"> 
14:39:04 <ShaneM> <h2 property="rss:title">XFrames</h2> 
14:39:04 <ShaneM> <p property="rss:description">An XML application for composing
14:39:04 <ShaneM> documents together</p>
14:39:12 <Steven> Mark: What I am wary of
14:39:19 <Steven> ... if I have an item of type X
14:39:52 <Steven> ... will there be a situation where that item doesn't take on *all* the properties of an X
14:40:03 <Steven> ... in Raman's original example that was the case for instance
14:40:14 <Steven> ... so is rdf:type correct here?
14:40:51 <Steven> ... I'm scared we might have to invent a new attribute in a couple of years
14:41:16 <Steven> Rich: Raman added role to a handler so he could tell what the handler was supposed to do
14:42:20 <Steven> Mark: So you are saying this functionality can be got in a different way
14:42:25 <Steven> s/way/way?/
14:42:38 <Steven> Shane: At the AOL FtF we talked about this 
14:42:52 <Steven> ... and discussed the relationship between access/role and handlers
14:43:06 <Steven> ... for handling with navbars and so on
14:43:18 <Steven> ... Wasn't Raman there? Think so.
14:43:43 <Steven> ... Anyway, I think the concept of role has evolved since then
14:44:08 <Steven> Mark: Sure,we said let's use QNames to extend it, and let you use it with rdf
14:44:14 <Steven> s/,/, /
14:44:36 <Steven> ... the problems are similar to those of @class
14:44:41 <Steven> \... class is left very vague
14:44:56 <Steven> ... should we leave role vague, or define it hard-and-fast
14:47:43 <Steven> Shane: Surely the fact that is rdf:type is only relevant in the presence of other context?
14:49:14 <Steven> Rich: role has multi-values
14:49:21 <Steven> ... doesn't that solve it?
14:56:25 <ShaneM> My brain hurts. 
14:56:48 <Steven> [Fast discussion about what rdf;type implies]
14:56:55 <Steven> s/;/:/
14:57:43 <Steven> Mark: I mean that role and type are different, related but not equivalent
14:58:08 <Steven> ... I have a date of birth, doesn't mean I am of type date of birth
14:59:12 <Steven> Steven: That's different
14:59:40 <Steven> ... if I have an element of role Mark Birbeck, then I would expect it to contain an element of role DoB
14:59:59 <Steven> Mark: Don't confuse types with predicates
15:00:49 <Steven> Steven: Top of hour; I think we have to just try to code up some examples and see what breaks
15:00:53 <Rich> <owl:Class rdf:ID="roletype">
15:00:54 <Rich>     <rdfs:comment>This is a draft resource for adding semantic
15:00:54 <Rich>       annotations and information to Web resources. Knowing what the types of
15:00:54 <Rich>       content are in a Web page allows for better customized renderings. Including
15:00:54 <Rich>       want to allow information hiding, or rendering common types of content in a
15:00:54 <Rich>       consistent way - it makes the Web easer to use and more accessibility. You
15:00:56 <Rich>       can also use this for device independence so that content is better formatted
15:00:58 <Rich>       to fit on the device. </rdfs:comment>
15:01:00 <Rich>     <rdfs:subClassOf>
15:01:01 <Steven> ... as a way of concluding something
15:01:02 <Rich>       <owl:Restriction>
15:01:04 <Rich>         <owl:onProperty rdf:resource="&dc;description"/>
15:01:06 <Rich>         <owl:cardinality rdf:datatype="&xsd;string">1</owl:cardinality>
15:01:08 <Rich>       </owl:Restriction>
15:01:10 <Rich>     </rdfs:subClassOf>
15:01:12 <Rich>     <rdfs:comment>You have to give each content type a title and
15:01:14 <Rich>       description sorry folks (just be glad I did not put a min length on the
15:01:16 <Rich>       description</rdfs:comment>
15:01:18 <Rich>     <role:supportedState rdf:resource="&states;describedby"/>
15:01:20 <Rich>   </owl:Class>
15:02:05 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:02:13 <Rich> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/GUI/
15:02:19 <alessio_> I agree with Steven for concrete examples
15:02:44 <Steven> ADJOURN
15:02:46 <Zakim> -Steven
15:02:48 <Zakim> -Mark_Birbeck
15:02:54 <Zakim> -yamx
15:02:56 <Steven> Action: Steven to create some role use cases
15:03:04 <Zakim> -alessio
15:03:23 <markbirbeck> As I said, the problem is not in the mark-up, but in the triples generated, so it's not really a case of finding sample mark-up.
15:03:54 <Zakim> -Rich
15:03:58 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
15:04:00 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, ShaneM, alessio, yamx, Rich, Mark_Birbeck
15:04:10 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/25-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:05:09 <alessio_> bye all :)
15:05:11 <alessio_> alessio_ has left #xhtml
16:33:48 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
16:36:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
18:54:08 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
20:15:44 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
21:01:02 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
22:06:42 <krijnh> krijnh has joined #xhtml
23:08:18 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml