IRC log of xhtml on 2007-04-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:50:38 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/25-xhtml-irc

13:50:44 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

13:50:55 [Steven]

zakim, this will be xhtml

13:50:55 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

13:51:10 [Steven]

Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

13:51:34 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0030

13:51:47 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0030

13:52:42 [Steven]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes Previous

13:52:49 [alessio]

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13:54:24 [alessio]

hi steven, shane, all...

13:54:46 [Steven]

Hi there Alessio

13:56:12 [yamx]

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14:00:38 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:00:38 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:00:39 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

14:00:39 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:01:13 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:01:15 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:01:16 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:01:32 [Zakim]

+??P36

14:02:17 [Zakim]

+??P35

14:02:18 [yamx]

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14:02:30 [yamx]

I just joined in tel (Yam)

14:02:40 [alessio]

idem, now

14:02:52 [alessio]

i'm second

14:02:59 [Steven]

zakim, ??P35 is alessio

14:02:59 [Zakim]

+alessio; got it

14:03:06 [Steven]

zakim, ??p36 is yamx

14:03:06 [Zakim]

+yamx; got it

14:03:13 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:03:13 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Steven, ShaneM, yamx, alessio

14:03:16 [Zakim]

On IRC I see yamx, alessio, RRSAgent, Zakim, ShaneM, gavin_, Steven, Lachy, krijnh

14:03:22 [Steven]

zakim, who is noisy?

14:03:33 [Zakim]

Steven, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

14:03:47 [Rich]

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14:03:50 [markbirbeck]

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14:04:14 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:04:23 [Steven]

Topic: Announcements

14:05:10 [Zakim]

+??P6

14:05:39 [Steven]

zakim, ??p6 is Rich

14:05:39 [Zakim]

+Rich; got it

14:05:59 [Steven]

Steven: THere are currently: 11 participants from 8 organizations

14:05:59 [Steven]

2 Invited Experts

14:06:04 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:06:50 [Steven]

... I know of 2 more organisations and one more invited expert in the pipeline

14:08:42 [Zakim]

+Mark_Birbeck

14:08:44 [Rich]

what dates?

14:09:24 [yamx]

OMA has a meeting in Bangkok during June 11-15. (Yam)

14:09:28 [Steven]

Steven: We have the option of meeting face-to-face 11-12 June

14:09:39 [Steven]

... at IBM in Hawthorne NY

14:09:43 [Rich]

that does not interfere with my PF meetings in germany - a plus

14:10:37 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to ask WG by email if we should meet 11-12 June in NY

14:10:50 [ShaneM]

For the record, I can likely make that assuming nothing bad happens. Ill parents etc.

14:10:51 [Steven]

Steven: Otherwsie we will have an editors meeting instead

14:11:21 [Steven]

s/sie/ise/

14:12:16 [Steven]

Rich: DId the charter get updated?

14:12:20 [Steven]

Steven: As far as I know

14:12:28 [Steven]

s/DI/Di/

14:13:02 [ShaneM]

I nominate Steven as chair for this meeting.

14:13:19 [Steven]

Rich: Do we have a chair yet?

14:13:23 [Steven]

Steven: No, not yet

14:14:10 [yamx]

I support the nomination (yam)

14:14:11 [ShaneM]

is the current topic "charter"

14:14:26 [Steven]

Shane: For the record, the charter still talks about "The accesskey module"

14:15:11 [Steven]

Topic: class/rel/rev/role and Curies

14:15:11 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0023

14:16:17 [Steven]

Mark: I can see a big difference, and no one else can

14:16:49 [Steven]

... it's not so much role vs class, but should role be rdf:type

14:17:08 [Steven]

... I'm not sure if everyone has tried it against all use cases

14:17:40 [Steven]

... My next email at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0028.html

14:17:48 [Steven]

... discusses it more fully

14:18:12 [Steven]

... I know that Rich followed up saying that we want rdf:type

14:18:39 [Steven]

... but when Raman first suggested role

14:18:49 [Steven]

... his oly example seemed to use role just as a hint

14:18:56 [Steven]

s/oly/only/

14:19:27 [Steven]

... so to repeat, I'm not sure that all examples have been testedagainst the idea that it represents rdf:type

14:19:36 [Steven]

s/tested/tested /

14:19:56 [Steven]

... does @role give us a hook, where the rdfness is implied

14:20:13 [Steven]

... or does role give us a first-order rdf:type?

14:20:14 [ShaneM]

is there another way to specify an rdf type in RDFa today?

14:20:36 [Steven]

Mark: We could further refine this

14:20:51 [Steven]

... just as we say this is what we mean by rel/rev etc

14:20:58 [Steven]

... we can say this with role

14:21:28 [Steven]

... at present we use class, but the suggestion is to use role instead

14:21:45 [Steven]

... and there is longthand <ling rel="rdf:type"...

14:21:50 [Steven]

s/ling/link/

14:21:57 [Steven]

s/thand/hand/

14:22:08 [Steven]

... the question is about the shorthand

14:22:29 [Steven]

Shane: I don't understand the subtleties

14:22:50 [Steven]

... but I am very worried about using @class because of the legacy

14:23:11 [Steven]

... on the other hand I understand the TF wants to take advantage of existing infrastructure

14:23:46 [Steven]

Mark: One discussion is whether we should use @class at all

14:24:01 [Steven]

... I believe we should, though I accept that not everyone agrees

14:24:47 [Steven]

... I expected a Dan Brickly to jump in and say "Ah! rdf:type this or that...", and that didn't happen

14:25:13 [Steven]

.. the 2 use cases at present are 1) Rich's case, where rdf:type is handy

14:25:46 [gavin_]

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14:25:55 [Steven]

...2) THe mozilla/firefox one, where the element aquires the properties associated with that role

14:25:59 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:26:18 [Steven]

s/2/ 2/

14:26:28 [Steven]

... these are the accessibility extensions

14:27:09 [Steven]

Rich: Role links to the rdf role taxonomy

14:27:13 [Zakim]

-alessio

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14:28:08 [Steven]

... SAP, Google, IBM are using this stuff

14:28:20 [Steven]

.. and even IE is going to implement role!

14:28:37 [Zakim]

+??P0

14:28:43 [Steven]

... (this is not official, but they really have to, to give access to the accessibility APIs)

14:28:55 [Steven]

zakim, ??P0 is alessio

14:28:55 [Zakim]

+alessio; got it

14:29:00 [alessio_]

yep :)

14:29:07 [Steven]

Mark: Will IE implement it in the same way?

14:29:34 [Steven]

Rich: It might

14:29:56 [Steven]

Mark: I'm trying to work out if it reflects on the role/rdf:type issue

14:30:33 [Steven]

Shane: I think it should be rdf:type

14:30:37 [Steven]

Rich: I agree

14:31:15 [markbirbeck]

<div rdf:type="range"> ... </div>

14:31:20 [Steven]

[Scribe got the last two wrong]

14:31:29 [Steven]

SHane: I think role = rdf:type is fine

14:31:33 [Steven]

s/SH/Sh/

14:31:56 [markbirbeck]

Have we simply said that role == rdf:type? Have we just created a shorthand?

14:32:07 [Steven]

Mark: THe problem is that if you make that decision once and for all, you can't undo it

14:32:12 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:32:14 [markbirbeck]

<div role="range"> ... </div>

14:32:21 [Steven]

... better to define it per document

14:33:00 [markbirbeck]

Something has a 'xh:role' of range...

14:33:02 [Steven]

... and define a mapping if needed for a particular document

14:33:35 [Rich]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/GUI/

14:35:31 [Steven]

Steven: What about <p role="rss:description".>

14:35:39 [Steven]

... what is the rdf equivalent?

14:35:57 [Steven]

... if we say it is per document, then I can't process that generically

14:36:16 [Steven]

Shane: THat should be @property

14:36:21 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:36:38 [Steven]

Mark: No, because you need a predicate of type rdf:type

14:37:04 [Steven]

... because rss:description is not a predicate

14:37:10 [Steven]

... it is the object of a statement

14:39:04 [ShaneM]

I thought this was more correct:

14:39:04 [ShaneM]

<div id="xframes" about="#xframes" role="rss:item">

14:39:04 [ShaneM]

<h2 property="rss:title">XFrames</h2>

14:39:04 [ShaneM]

<p property="rss:description">An XML application for composing

14:39:04 [ShaneM]

documents together</p>

14:39:12 [Steven]

Mark: What I am wary of

14:39:19 [Steven]

... if I have an item of type X

14:39:52 [Steven]

... will there be a situation where that item doesn't take on *all* the properties of an X

14:40:03 [Steven]

... in Raman's original example that was the case for instance

14:40:14 [Steven]

... so is rdf:type correct here?

14:40:51 [Steven]

... I'm scared we might have to invent a new attribute in a couple of years

14:41:16 [Steven]

Rich: Raman added role to a handler so he could tell what the handler was supposed to do

14:42:20 [Steven]

Mark: So you are saying this functionality can be got in a different way

14:42:25 [Steven]

s/way/way?/

14:42:38 [Steven]

Shane: At the AOL FtF we talked about this

14:42:52 [Steven]

... and discussed the relationship between access/role and handlers

14:43:06 [Steven]

... for handling with navbars and so on

14:43:18 [Steven]

... Wasn't Raman there? Think so.

14:43:43 [Steven]

... Anyway, I think the concept of role has evolved since then

14:44:08 [Steven]

Mark: Sure,we said let's use QNames to extend it, and let you use it with rdf

14:44:14 [Steven]

s/,/, /

14:44:36 [Steven]

... the problems are similar to those of @class

14:44:41 [Steven]

\... class is left very vague

14:44:56 [Steven]

... should we leave role vague, or define it hard-and-fast

14:47:43 [Steven]

Shane: Surely the fact that is rdf:type is only relevant in the presence of other context?

14:49:14 [Steven]

Rich: role has multi-values

14:49:21 [Steven]

... doesn't that solve it?

14:56:25 [ShaneM]

My brain hurts.

14:56:48 [Steven]

[Fast discussion about what rdf;type implies]

14:56:55 [Steven]

s/;/:/

14:57:43 [Steven]

Mark: I mean that role and type are different, related but not equivalent

14:58:08 [Steven]

... I have a date of birth, doesn't mean I am of type date of birth

14:59:12 [Steven]

Steven: That's different

14:59:40 [Steven]

... if I have an element of role Mark Birbeck, then I would expect it to contain an element of role DoB

14:59:59 [Steven]

Mark: Don't confuse types with predicates

15:00:49 [Steven]

Steven: Top of hour; I think we have to just try to code up some examples and see what breaks

15:00:53 [Rich]

<owl:Class rdf:ID="roletype">

15:00:54 [Rich]

<rdfs:comment>This is a draft resource for adding semantic

15:00:54 [Rich]

annotations and information to Web resources. Knowing what the types of

15:00:54 [Rich]

content are in a Web page allows for better customized renderings. Including

15:00:54 [Rich]

want to allow information hiding, or rendering common types of content in a

15:00:54 [Rich]

consistent way - it makes the Web easer to use and more accessibility. You

15:00:56 [Rich]

can also use this for device independence so that content is better formatted

15:00:58 [Rich]

to fit on the device. </rdfs:comment>

15:01:00 [Rich]

<rdfs:subClassOf>

15:01:01 [Steven]

... as a way of concluding something

15:01:02 [Rich]

<owl:Restriction>

15:01:04 [Rich]

<owl:onProperty rdf:resource="&dc;description"/>

15:01:06 [Rich]

<owl:cardinality rdf:datatype="&xsd;string">1</owl:cardinality>

15:01:08 [Rich]

</owl:Restriction>

15:01:10 [Rich]

</rdfs:subClassOf>

15:01:12 [Rich]

<rdfs:comment>You have to give each content type a title and

15:01:14 [Rich]

description sorry folks (just be glad I did not put a min length on the

15:01:16 [Rich]

description</rdfs:comment>

15:01:18 [Rich]

<role:supportedState rdf:resource="&states;describedby"/>

15:01:20 [Rich]

</owl:Class>

15:02:05 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:02:13 [Rich]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/GUI/

15:02:19 [alessio_]

I agree with Steven for concrete examples

15:02:44 [Steven]

ADJOURN

15:02:46 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:02:48 [Zakim]

-Mark_Birbeck

15:02:54 [Zakim]

-yamx

15:02:56 [Steven]

Action: Steven to create some role use cases

15:03:04 [Zakim]

-alessio

15:03:23 [markbirbeck]

As I said, the problem is not in the mark-up, but in the triples generated, so it's not really a case of finding sample mark-up.

15:03:54 [Zakim]

-Rich

15:03:58 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

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Attendees were Steven, ShaneM, alessio, yamx, Rich, Mark_Birbeck

15:04:10 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:04:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/25-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:05:09 [alessio_]

bye all :)

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