14:31:32 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:31:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-irc 14:31:56 zakim, this will be rif 14:31:56 ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes 14:32:30 Meeting: RIF Telecon 24 Apr 07 14:32:37 Chair: Chris Welty 14:33:19 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0058.html 14:33:35 ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 Apr Telecon Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0058.html 14:33:57 rrsagent, make minutes 14:33:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 14:34:06 agenda+ Admin 14:34:16 agenda+ Liason 14:34:25 agenda+ Technical Design 14:34:32 agenda+ UCR 14:34:36 agenda+ RIFRAF 14:34:42 agenda+ AOB 14:35:23 agenda+ F2F 14:35:55 rrsagent, make logs public 14:54:58 Harold has joined #rif 14:56:42 patranja has joined #rif 14:57:26 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:57:33 +[NRCC] 14:57:52 zakim [NRCC] is me 14:58:17 Hassan has joined #rif 14:59:32 pfps has joined #rif 14:59:48 +Sandro 15:00:07 josb has joined #rif 15:00:13 +??P18 15:00:20 zakim, ??P18 is me 15:00:21 +pfps; got it 15:00:23 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:01:02 +PaulaP 15:01:16 +[IBM] 15:01:29 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:01:29 +ChrisW; got it 15:01:31 +Leora_Morgenstern 15:01:51 +josb 15:02:02 +Hassan_Ait-Kaci 15:02:07 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:07 On the phone I see [NRCC], Sandro, pfps, PaulaP (muted), ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, josb (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted) 15:02:20 PhilippeB has joined #RIF 15:02:43 StellaMitchell has joined #rif 15:03:24 phillipe, will you be joining us? 15:04:12 s/phillipe/Philippe/ 15:04:15 :-) 15:04:31 +[IBM] 15:04:49 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:04:49 +StellaMitchell; got it 15:04:57 AllenGinsberg has joined #rif 15:05:01 chris, I will scribe 15:05:12 Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif 15:05:21 scribenick: StellaMitchell 15:05:29 Scribe: Stella Mitchell 15:05:33 zakim, next item 15:05:36 agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:05:47 +Deborah_Nichols 15:06:02 chris: next telecon, tues May 1st 15:06:07 +Allen_Ginsberg 15:06:20 +??P38 15:06:26 zakim, mute me 15:06:26 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 15:06:27 chris: agenda ammendment: we will discuss next F2F 15:06:27 +Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P38) 15:06:34 Zakim, mute me 15:06:34 Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted 15:06:40 sandro: may 1st is holiday for some 15:07:02 +1 will attend next tuesday 15:07:03 chris: how many people who are here today can attend next week? 15:07:06 +1 15:07:07 +1 for attending next Tue. 15:07:07 zakim, mute ,e 15:07:07 sorry, AllenGinsberg, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ,e 15:07:09 +1 15:07:10 chris: put in irc log 15:07:11 +1 will attend may 1 15:07:13 +1 15:07:14 +1 for next week 15:07:19 +1 15:07:57 chris: 8 yes, so 2/3 of people who are on the call will attend 15:07:57 +Gary_Hallmark 15:08:05 chris: we will hold the telecon next week 15:08:11 +1 15:08:27 chris: following week, may 8, we may have to cancel due to conflict 15:08:37 zakim, take up item 8 15:08:37 I only see 7 items on the agenda 15:08:38 chris: ...will discuss by email 15:08:39 zakim, take up item 7 15:08:39 agendum 7. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:09:04 chris: next f2f is in just over a month, in Innsbruck 15:09:18 jos: preparations are on schedule. more info is on the wiki 15:09:32 jos: I will need info from WG about number of attendees and 15:09:41 ... number for dinner 15:10:27 chris: sandro will set up questionairre with deadline of may 17 15:10:51 sandro: some people may attend one day and not the other 15:11:18 lunches? 15:11:22 jos: meeting will be at the university at DERI 15:11:39 chris: what is the best hotel, to be close to meeting 15:11:50 jos: there are none in the vicinity - I will doublecheck 15:12:03 jos: people usually stay in center, and there is a good bus connection 15:12:22 any local info will be good 15:12:25 chris: any info to help - such as what hotels are close to the bus, etc 15:12:48 sandro: encourage people to make travel plans at the same time they fill out the survery 15:13:11 sandro: so there should be enough info to help them 15:14:01 jos: getting there page is redundant with reaching innsbruck page 15:14:41 jos: I will update the page 15:15:06 chris: any other questions for jos? 15:15:08 zakim, next item 15:15:08 agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:15:08 ACTION: Sandro to make F2F6 attendance survey 15:15:09 Created ACTION-278 - Make F2F6 attendance survey [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-05-01]. 15:15:15 zakim, close item 1 15:15:15 agendum 1, Admin, closed 15:15:17 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:15:18 2. Liason [from ChrisW] 15:15:20 zakim, next item 15:15:20 agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:15:20 ... (none) 15:15:33 chris: any news from liasons? 15:15:37 chris: none on call... 15:15:41 zakim, close item 2 15:15:41 agendum 2, Liason, closed 15:15:42 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:15:43 zakim, next item 15:15:43 3. Technical Design [from ChrisW] 15:15:44 agendum 3. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:16:10 none 15:16:11 chris: didn't see any public comments on the core WD 15:16:19 sandro: last comment was april 3rd 15:16:27 sandro: did anyone send out any reminders? 15:16:39 @& 15:16:48 I sent to some folks at SRI but forgot to update the contacts page - will do after the meeting. 15:16:51 chris: deadline for comments is april 27 15:16:52 Zakim, unmute me 15:16:52 Philippe_Bonnard should no longer be muted 15:17:12 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:17:12 On the phone I see [NRCC], Sandro, pfps, PaulaP (muted), ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, josb (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), 15:17:15 ... Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Philippe_Bonnard, Gary_Hallmark 15:17:31 sandro: no one has advertised it except me 15:17:31 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Outreach Outreach page on wiki 15:17:46 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:17:50 csma: can we extend comment deadline? 15:17:58 +MichaelKifer 15:18:12 zakim, mute me 15:18:12 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:18:25 Zakim, unmute me 15:18:25 Philippe_Bonnard was not muted, PhilippeB 15:18:25 sandro: yes, we probably can. we can say we are still accepting comments 15:18:28 Sandro: "Even though the deadline is passing, we will still accept comments" 15:18:37 ...(can't change deadline on document) 15:19:11 deborah: I did send to SRI, but I forgot to update outreach page 15:19:23 ...and I said we would accept comments after deadline 15:19:30 you can give me javarules, omg 15:19:36 chris: csma, you did javarules last time 15:19:38 ACTION: Christopher announce rif-core to CL 15:19:38 Created ACTION-279 - Announce rif-core to CL [on Christopher Welty - due 2007-05-01]. 15:19:51 Zakim, mute me 15:19:51 Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted 15:19:55 ACTION: csma announce rif-core to Java Rules 15:19:55 Sorry, couldn't find user - csma 15:20:02 ACTION: christian announce rif-core to Java Rules 15:20:02 Created ACTION-280 - Announce rif-core to Java Rules [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-01]. 15:20:07 chris: any business rules people? 15:20:17 give it to csma 15:20:27 chris: ... any volunteers to announce core WD to business rules community 15:20:41 ACTION: Christian account rif-core to BRCommunity 15:20:41 Created ACTION-281 - Account rif-core to BRCommunity [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-01]. 15:21:17 no, I never was 15:21:25 I just sent the email 15:21:36 chris: I will do OMG 15:21:58 chris: I mentioned to Lee Feigenbaum that we would like comments 15:22:04 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:22:16 ACTION: Christopher announce rif-core to OMG 15:22:16 Created ACTION-282 - Announce rif-core to OMG [on Christopher Welty - due 2007-05-01]. 15:22:28 chris: mismo brew? was that a one time thing? 15:22:39 chris: do we need to notify them again? 15:22:44 OK 15:22:57 ACTION: Christian to accounce rif-core to MISMO 15:22:57 Created ACTION-283 - Accounce rif-core to MISMO [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-01]. 15:23:21 Zakim, unmute me 15:23:21 Philippe_Bonnard should no longer be muted 15:23:23 chris: please everyone, spead the word around if you can 15:23:44 chris: we will now try the online demo setup 15:24:17 chris: we want to be able to share RIF demos, will test the setup today 15:24:30 http://ilog.on.raindance.com 15:25:03 I installed it - then what? 15:25:17 csma: go to "join unscheduled meeting" 15:25:28 csma: then choose level of download 15:25:51 Conference ID: 9250520 15:26:31 hassan: what should be my userid? 15:27:52 gstoil has joined #rif 15:28:19 https://ilog.on.raindance.com 15:29:14 chris: we won't want to have to download software every time someone wants to give a demo 15:29:51 Should we use the Full Version or the Light Version for the purpose of the demo today? 15:30:07 taking the 'full install' option of raindance allows you to give the demo 15:31:10 testing. I want to see if this appears in raindance. 15:31:13 csma: look for 'meeting room' 15:31:25 chris: it looks like it's working for me 15:31:49 chris: hassan, were you able to find it? 15:32:18 hassan: I am going to repeat the download 15:32:39 hassan: open the application and you can join that way 15:33:14 chimezie has joined #rif 15:33:22 sandro: can hassan and phillipe debug hassan's problem after the meeting 15:33:28 chris: did anyone else try and fail? 15:33:36 deborah: i got an error when I downloade full version 15:33:39 Yes, I will help anybody if needed after the meeting 15:33:45 deborah: i am now trying the light version 15:35:04 On raindance I see: Gary, Allen, "Changhai", Chris, Deborah, Giorgos, Leora, Paula. 15:35:45 I one of us "requests control", can we then present info from our computer to the rest? 15:36:07 (but it says ten participants. presumably I am one, but one is missing.) 15:36:10 hassan joined successfully 15:37:15 chris: let's give another minute for questions/problems 15:37:24 chris: look's like it's basically working 15:37:25 Ahhh.... I should have scrolled down. 15:37:49 OK 15:38:03 chris: when do you plan to do the demo? 15:38:36 philippe: we will try to do it next week 15:38:42 hassan: how long does demo take? 15:38:53 philippe: between 10 and 15 minutes 15:39:32 zakim, next item 15:39:32 agendum 4. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:39:36 Zakim, mute me 15:39:36 Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted 15:39:46 next item: issue 25 15:40:02 chris: there hasn't been much email 15:40:03 Topic: RIF Core 15:40:45 chris: bnodes, sandro, can you give a quick summary? 15:41:02 Sandro's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0029.html 15:41:07 sandro: bnodes in RDF are logically equiv to existentially quantified variables 15:41:19 sandro: scope is document 15:41:26 sandro: how to map this to RIF? 15:41:39 sandro: we need to figure out how other rule systems use bnodes and 15:41:46 ...how that would map to rif core 15:42:05 sando: I think rif core already has what we need to handle this 15:42:23 sandro: rif core has file scrop existential vars also, even though they are not called that 15:42:27 (local names) 15:42:36 q+ 15:43:06 sandro: this is what I have thought so far, I don't have a high level of confidence in this 15:43:28 chris: a bnode is an implicitly existentially qualified variable 15:43:35 chris: local name in rif is not that 15:43:41 (would need quantification also) 15:43:42 q? 15:43:59 sandro: depends on rdf graph... 15:44:18 ... i got it wrong in my email 15:44:34 jos: there is a semantic difference 15:45:05 ... local names which are globally unique for bnodes, but it will not eumulate everything in rdf 15:45:15 ... eg, merging of rdf graphs 15:45:28 ... two bnodes can indicate the same thing, but 2 local names will 15:45:38 ...typically indicate different things 15:45:47 sandro: not necessarily true 15:46:04 q+ 15:46:07 p(_:a) 15:46:15 p(_:b) 15:46:37 jos: if you merge the above 2 in rdf, you will know that you have one thing 15:46:43 -Philippe_Bonnard 15:46:57 -Gary_Hallmark 15:47:02 ... but in ?? you will know you have two things 15:47:03 q- 15:47:38 hassan: why isn't there a notion of a variable? 15:47:51 ... a local name that can be bound and dereferenced 15:48:00 sandro: lots of discussion behind it 15:48:19 chris: it's an established standard and we have to understand how to be compatible with it 15:48:37 sandro: I htink we can think in terms of variables 15:48:52 jos: we don't hace notion of ex quant variables in facts in rif 15:48:56 Sandro, RIF Core cannot currently assert 'existentially connected' facts as in Exists ?x (And ( p(a ?x) q(b ?x) ) ), while BNodes can express such 'document-global' existentials. 15:49:14 harold: i put an example in IRC 15:49:43 sandro: what if you have a contstant name? how is that different 15:50:00 .. from an existentially quantified variable? 15:50:20 jos: there is a difference - skolem constant you have a name, variable you don't have a name 15:50:37 jos: i dont' have a good example at the moment, I will think about it 15:51:02 harold: (missed what he said) 15:51:35 harold: in rif working draft, constant "john" occurs in document 15:51:47 if you merge it with another document, it's the same johm 15:51:57 sandro: no, it shouldn't be the same! 15:52:16 chris: jos, you will come up with an example? 15:52:28 jos: for certain things it will work, and for others it will not work 15:53:12 zakim, unmute me 15:53:12 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:53:13 ACTION: Jos to present test case where b-nodes don't directly map to file-scope constants 15:53:13 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos 15:53:13 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij, jderoo) 15:53:20 chris: any other discussion on this topic? 15:53:26 ACTION: JosDeBruin to present test case where b-nodes don't directly map to file-scope constants 15:53:26 Sorry, couldn't find user - JosDeBruin 15:53:30 mk: i think there is a problem when you are trying to count 15:53:52 mk: if you skolemize it will be a seperate constant - if you want to count number of nodes.... 15:54:21 ... i5 normal constants, 10 bnodes... 15:54:40 if you skolemize you will say you have 15 nodes, but if you don't you will have 5 15:54:52 chris: I'm not sure we need to be able to count 15:55:00 chris: do we have a quality in core? 15:55:02 mk: yes 15:55:02 mk: yes 15:55:15 mk: when we introduce aggregate functions we may have problems 15:55:38 mk: if we treat them as sandro suggested, they will be treated as diff things 15:55:55 sandro: only if you have unique names asumption 15:55:55 sandro: only if you have unique names asumption 15:55:55 sandro: only if you have unique names asumption 15:56:04 s/harold: (missed what he said)/Replacing existentials with skolem constants should work if we 'localize' all constants to the documents in which they occur/ 15:56:05 (I put the action in tracker via the web interface.) 15:56:43 chris: an existentially quantifed variable is not equal to something else 15:56:55 ... rather you can bind it to something 15:57:47 jos: you can formulate a question are there different x and y so that b(x) and b(y) hold 15:58:14 ...as soon as you start counting your query answers, the difference will show up 15:58:30 jos: sparql returns bnodes 15:58:37 sandro: ..bad practice 15:58:42 s/harold: in rif working draft, constant "john" occurs in document/harold: If a constant "John" occurs in a document, it could be made unique by using the documents url as a unique prefix as in "http://example.org#John"/ 15:58:50 chris: any other points? 15:59:02 zakim, unmute me 15:59:02 Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted 15:59:07 Harold, then it's not a file-scope name, it's a relative URI. 15:59:09 zakim, next item 15:59:09 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, StellaMitchell 15:59:18 -[NRCC] 15:59:23 q? 15:59:27 ack jo 15:59:28 (which isn't good enough for some applications, as I recall.) 15:59:28 topic: ucr 15:59:32 q- 15:59:40 allen: i have an outstanding action which I will try to get to 15:59:49 zakim, next item 15:59:49 agendum 5. "RIFRAF" taken up [from ChrisW] 16:00:09 chris: axel is not here 16:00:35 leora: I build an ontology on top of what allen had done 16:00:50 Leora's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0061.html 16:00:50 leora: i sent that, along with some issues that I identified during the exercise 16:00:56 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0061.html Leora's e-mail 16:01:04 zakim, who is talking? 16:01:05 zakim, mute me 16:01:05 MichaelKifer should now be muted 16:01:12 leora: the original raf had discriminators for ECA rules 16:01:17 ChrisW, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds 16:01:26 ...leora: ECA is generally for updating DBs 16:01:43 ...I wanted to make it more general to cover action languages in general 16:01:59 ... an action language would be useful for example in the medical use case 16:02:48 ... there are some features they all have in common, but there are 16:03:04 ... also features differ between the different languages 16:03:27 ... the interesting exercise was to figure out how to categorize the features 16:03:41 ...does the distinction belong to the model or the theory? 16:03:59 ...we can discuss my results 16:04:15 sandro: where are we as far as ontologizing RIF core? 16:04:42 leora: I did this based on use cases to see what we would need 16:05:19 leora: in terms of RIF core syntax, these action rules can be represented as rules with heads and bodies... 16:05:54 leora: i classified these items under categories that we already have in the hierarchy 16:06:32 sandro: question about showing diagram at a glance with protoge 16:06:48 q+ 16:07:01 chris: project menu, configure, turn on owlviz and that plugin will draw a picture 16:07:26 chris: may need to install graph package 16:07:39 sandro: if someone can get picture, please mail to list and say how you got it 16:07:47 chris: it will be a big picture 16:08:15 allen: axel started with sandros, and I started with axel's, so we have all built on each other 16:08:30 The rest of us who do not knwo Protege need time to familiarize ourselves with it off line 16:09:20 leora: had question about some detail with disjunction and conjuntion in the file she started with 16:09:41 chris: axel was trying to classify rule language features, the things 16:09:51 ...you would find in syntax of a conventional rule language 16:10:10 ... you, leora, are extending it with additional things, such as temporal 16:10:40 leora: medical use case needs event calculus or situation calculas 16:10:50 ...another case may need fluent calculas 16:11:13 ...i think these things will be neede to cover the use cases at some point 16:11:29 paula: rifraf is about rule language and systems, not about concepts 16:11:40 ...so I think we should look at languages and not use cases 16:11:49 leora: i was looking at actual languages 16:12:11 chris: I suggest a methodological approach, so that we can distinguish different parts 16:12:22 ... owl has an import feature 16:12:36 ... can have an owl version of the core features 16:12:47 ...and then can import that and extend it 16:13:22 i.e. can have axel's piece as a seperate file/feature that can be imported seperately 16:13:25 q? 16:13:31 q- 16:13:34 ...these features you covered are far in the furture for RIF 16:13:34 still on queue PaulaP ? 16:13:52 no :) 16:13:57 q- PaulaP 16:14:05 chris: explicit notion of time in rule language, not in the short tem 16:14:48 leora: so you are not expecting to be able to translate into subsets of e.g. event calculus? 16:15:03 chris: will need a shared theory of time 16:16:10 chris: probably won't handle these features by end of this first part of wg, by november 16:16:53 leora: i will ontologize simple subset of one language 16:17:09 chris: use axel's as base, but exend in your own file 16:17:30 allen: I tried to represent the questions/discriminators in my section 16:17:56 allen: example: i had semantic structure as a class 16:18:09 allen: i tried to add properties and restrictions 16:18:37 allen: also, inference procedures decidable or undecidable 16:19:13 allen: i added comments indicating what I was trying to capture 16:19:22 ...you would really need a rule language associated with this 16:19:46 allen: i didn't cover the part about modal operators 16:20:01 chris: how much more do you have to add? 16:20:22 allen: just the part about modal operators or higher order logics (this was difficult to deal with) 16:20:45 chris: seperate your pieces into seperate owl file that imports axel's base 16:21:07 chris: paula, did you want to add something here, you were originally part of effort 16:21:22 -MichaelKifer 16:21:32 paula: i'm not sure. we looked at 5 reactive rule languages and we got 16:21:45 ...the discrimminators from those 16:21:57 ...i'm not sure if my approach is compatible with leora's 16:21:58 Paula is (like me) going BU while they go TD 16:22:09 ...i will look at leora's and decide on next step 16:22:23 allen: conjunction under disjunction doe look like it was a case of something 16:22:26 q? 16:22:28 ...being accidentally moved 16:22:51 ...(because it't not like that in axel's or my version) 16:22:53 In fulfillment of my action about bNodes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0062.html 16:23:10 chris: any other comments? 16:23:18