14:57:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
14:57:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-hcls-irc
14:57:53 <eneumann> rrsagent, set log world-visible
14:58:52 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has now started
14:58:59 <Zakim> + +1.216.636.aaaa
15:00:09 <Zakim> +Eric_Neumann
15:01:46 <BillBug> BillBug has joined #hcls
15:01:55 <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap
15:02:20 <Zakim> + +1.317.435.aabb
15:02:37 <eneumann> zakim, aaaa is chimezie
15:02:37 <Zakim> +chimezie; got it
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Olivier_Bodenreider
15:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.813.396.aacc
15:03:18 <Zakim> +Bill_Bug
15:03:21 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aadd
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15:03:30 <vipul> vipul has joined #hcls
15:03:50 <Tonya> Tonya has joined #hcls
15:03:54 <eneumann> zakim, aacc is Rachael
15:03:54 <Zakim> +Rachael; got it
15:04:12 <eneumann> zakim, aabb is Susie
15:04:12 <Zakim> +Susie; got it
15:04:39 <eneumann> zakim, aadd is tn_bhat
15:04:39 <Zakim> +tn_bhat; got it
15:04:57 <eneumann> zakim, aaee is Stan_Huff
15:05:00 <Zakim> +Stan_Huff; got it
15:05:14 <Zakim> +Tanya_Hongsermeier
15:06:05 <eneumann> zakim, who's here?
15:06:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see chimezie, Eric_Neumann, Vipul_Kashyap, Susie, Olivier_Bodenreider, Rachael, Bill_Bug, tn_bhat, Stan_Huff, Tanya_Hongsermeier
15:06:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see Tonya, vipul, BillBug, RRSAgent, Zakim, eneumann, ericP
15:06:40 <Zakim> -Stan_Huff
15:07:35 <Zakim> +Stan_Huff
15:07:41 <eneumann> zakim, pick a vicitm
15:07:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick a vicitm', eneumann
15:07:51 <Zakim> -Stan_Huff
15:07:52 <eneumann> zakim, pick a scribe
15:07:52 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Bill_Bug
15:08:38 <Zakim> +Stan_Huff
15:09:39 <BillBug> EN: Alan not on call
15:09:41 <BillBug> Review Demo issues briefly
15:09:42 <BillBug> just 5 wks until workshop
15:09:44 <BillBug> must wittle down to the essentially tasks in the next week
15:09:46 <BillBug> many deliverables alan is expecting next week
15:09:48 <BillBug> questions?
15:11:18 <BillBug> SS: another informal F2F at MIT - April 10 
15:11:20 <BillBug> working on modeling of data sets in RDF & OWL
15:11:21 <BillBug> will be checking to make certain things WILL connect as expected
15:11:34 <BillBug> EN: Hope to see lots of code & tools coming together by then
15:12:10 <BillBug> EN: any questions re: demo or tasks?
15:12:12 <BillBug> Did put a link on the WIki to solicit more help for Alan?
15:12:13 <BillBug> No outstanding questions
15:13:57 <BillBug> VK: Introduce Stan Huff and Tom Oniki
15:13:59 <BillBug> Showing clinical model work
15:14:00 <BillBug> looking for overlap with OTF - looking for synergies - represent in RDF & OWL
15:14:02 <BillBug> ACPP TF overlap - look for more overlap with CDISC
15:14:11 <vipul> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/OntologyTaskForce?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=CEM.ppt
15:14:24 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
15:14:24 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:14:25 <Zakim> +EricP
15:15:18 <BillBug> SH: Talk from PPT slides
15:15:20 <BillBug> format of speaking on HCLS TCon
15:15:22 <BillBug> (EN: have 45 minutes)
15:15:24 <BillBug> Will go through slides - questions at end
15:15:44 <BillBug> SH: obviously more info than can be covered in 45 minutes
15:15:46 <BillBug> can plan follow-ups if useful
15:16:22 <ericP> slides are http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/OntologyTaskForce?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=CEM.ppt ?
15:16:30 <BillBug> EN: In the audience we have BOTH clinical and basic LS research
15:16:32 <BillBug> recommend going quickly - let non-clinical folks review on their time
15:16:42 <BillBug> SH: Team effort (slide 2)
15:17:39 <BillBug> SH: Real goals - not just data - trying to enable LIFETIME e-record (from pre-natal to post-death)
15:17:41 <BillBug> linking to all relevant services
15:17:42 <BillBug> (see slide 3)
15:18:11 <BillBug> SH: Depends on SHARED common info models coupled to shared terminologies & ontologies
15:18:45 <BillBug> SH: What is a Detailed Clinical Model? (slide 5 - high-level overview)
15:19:09 <BillBug> SH: Slide 5 - simple example (systemic BP)
15:19:19 <ericP> slide 6
15:20:04 <BillBug> SH: re: longitudinal record (slide 6)
15:20:06 <BillBug> what record to support use 100+ years
15:20:07 <BillBug> legal record
15:20:09 <BillBug> data will outlive service, app, message format, AND person
15:20:24 <BillBug> SH: focused on logical structure of data AND interactions with standard terms & ontologies
15:21:13 <BillBug> SH: Real time, patient specific, decision support (slide 7)
15:21:14 <BillBug> All patient specific info - most appropriate course of care for that specific patient
15:21:34 <eneumann> scribe: BillBug
15:22:35 <BillBug> SH: Sharing data (slide 8)
15:22:37 <BillBug> reduce labor within HC enterprise
15:22:38 <BillBug> outside enterprise - many needs (need standard model for it to be computable) - especially to support analysis of this data
15:22:40 <BillBug> use data to improve patient care (outcomes-based - evaluate intervention outcomes - natural disease course)
15:22:48 <ericP> slide 10
15:23:01 <ericP> (i think)
15:23:14 <BillBug> SH: National & Internation sharing (slide 10)
15:23:32 <BillBug> last ref - sharing data (slide 8 & 9)
15:24:20 <BillBug> SH: create NEW kinds of HC marketplace (slide 11)
15:24:22 <BillBug> create apps against standard services using common logical model for patient data
15:24:39 <ericP> slide 12
15:24:46 <ericP> (picture seems applicable)
15:25:05 <BillBug> SH: Order Entry API (slide 12)
15:25:07 <BillBug> same back end - front ends swap out - regardless how complex the app
15:25:46 <BillBug> SH: escape repetative, vertically stacked, hard-code connection between backend (serializaiton & data exchange) and specific app
15:26:04 <BillBug> SH: Shared public standard for DCM & for APIs/Services
15:27:26 <BillBug> SH: on slide 18 now
15:28:05 <BillBug> EN: What is COS
15:28:07 <BillBug> SH: Common Order Service (consider same as Common Object Service)
15:28:21 <BillBug> SH: Curly brackets problem (slide 18)
15:29:01 <eneumann> Clinical syntaxes: ARDEN, JELLO
15:30:04 <BillBug> SH: Arden Syntax (slide 18)
15:30:06 <BillBug> place shared data within curly brackets
15:30:08 <BillBug> DCM target shared logical model that provide more specific access to detailed data elements
15:30:26 <BillBug> SH: need standard model & repostiory (slide 19)
15:30:45 <eneumann> thniks Stan's desccription of "Shared logical model..." very close to RDF-OWL model 
15:30:51 <BillBug> SH: Can't depend on free-text data (Slide 20)
15:30:59 <eneumann> s/thniks/thinks
15:31:36 <BillBug> SH: Prospective decision support precludes use of free-text
15:31:38 <BillBug> Need shared, precise DCM
15:32:34 <BillBug> SH: Example - SNOMED CT - numbness in specific limb (slide 21)
15:32:36 <BillBug> same codes to represent limb numbness - regardless of which limb - no good for computability
15:32:37 <BillBug> need that in model
15:35:01 <BillBug> SH: Too many ways to say the same thing (Slides 22, 23, & 24)
15:35:02 <BillBug> Need the ability to qualify a measure (e.g. wt) so as to TRULY descriminate TRULY distinct measures
15:35:04 <BillBug> Can end up with totally different representation for same info depending on codes and variable model syntax (slide 24)
15:36:19 <Zakim> + +1.801.736.aaff
15:37:02 <BillBug> SH: RDBMS implications (slide 25)
15:37:03 <BillBug> tuples have different structure
15:37:05 <BillBug> example of using qualification to specify detailed WT type
15:37:07 <BillBug> can't be easily made commensurate across two models (+/-qualification)
15:37:09 <BillBug> end up needing totally different logic
15:37:11 <BillBug> or specific logic JUST to disambiguate
15:37:15 <ericP> q+ to note that term mismatch examples all have unequivocal mapping
15:38:14 <BillBug> SH: more complex examples (slide 26)
15:38:15 <BillBug> these REALLY encourage a cornucopia of models (if your underlying shared model is NOT sufficient nuanced to capture detail)
15:39:33 <eneumann> ack ericP
15:39:33 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to note that term mismatch examples all have unequivocal mapping
15:40:01 <BillBug> SH: Need shared terms/ontos AS WELL AS shared, layered DCM (Slide 27)
15:40:02 <BillBug> modelling in layers allows for required variability in application detail
15:41:19 <BillBug> EP: seems previous examples can be unequivovally mapped
15:41:21 <BillBug> SH: though these more complex - and abstract pre-coordinated entities such as syndromes
15:41:22 <BillBug> end up with a very lossy translation
15:42:01 <BillBug> SH: (back to slide 27)
15:42:02 <BillBug> layer model - helps in variety of integration scenarios with differing levels of detail
15:43:27 <BillBug> SH: Slide 31 - How do we use the models?
15:43:28 <BillBug> different use depending on the task - API interprocess comm, Core services, Decision Logic 
15:44:13 <BillBug> SH: Bottom line - DCM does NOT dictate physical model
15:44:15 <BillBug> so app sharing and widget sharing can be eminantly re-usable
15:45:35 <BillBug> SH: Data entry validation (Slide 32 & 33)
15:45:36 <BillBug> model helps to insure validation before data reaches backend store
15:45:37 <eneumann> wonders if data storage service (DSS) validation is identical with RDF-S and OWL validation? 
15:45:38 <BillBug> known model PRIOR to storing data
15:45:39 <BillBug> need tools that build off that model (validation just one example)
15:46:44 <BillBug> SH: Clinical Element Model (Slide 35)
15:46:45 <BillBug> EIM Subject Areas (high level)
15:46:47 <BillBug> had started with high-level and drilled down to detail
15:46:49 <BillBug> now focus on detail and map it up to the higher-level
15:47:35 <Zakim> - +1.801.736.aaff
15:49:54 <ericP> i envision a panel as an input form for a testor to fill out
15:50:36 <BillBug> SH: Conceptual hierarchichy of Clinical Element Models (slide 36)
15:50:38 <BillBug> from top to bottom - abstract core that gets more detail as you proceed to actual data element
15:50:40 <BillBug> those low-level elements can turn out to be used in many ways in the intermediate layer 
15:50:41 <BillBug> EN: LabOpsPanel ?
15:50:43 <BillBug> SH: These are arbitrary collections of data needed for a certain clinical decision process
15:50:44 <BillBug> However, the underlying results may have MANY MORE uses outside of that process node
15:50:46 <BillBug> (e.g., Chem7, Chem20, Serum Sodium)
15:50:47 <BillBug>  a STATEMENT - is a single sentence where adverbs& adjectives about single subject.
15:50:49 <BillBug> WHEREAS - a panel is a paragraph with statements about many subjects
15:51:27 <BillBug> EN: 11:50 - time for questions?
15:51:29 <BillBug> Should we jump to later detail slides?
15:51:30 <BillBug> SH: Whatever you like.
15:52:23 <BillBug> EN: Is your work and your consortium - I see XML mentioned
15:52:25 <BillBug> Are folks familiar with RDF?
15:52:27 <BillBug> SH: Familiar with OWL
15:52:29 <BillBug> Alan Rector has been using OWL for same types of models
15:52:31 <BillBug> Very interested to see how they can be used to represent the models
15:52:55 <BillBug> EN: Perusing your models, they seem to have goals very much commensurate with underlying SemWeb Tech/RDF goals
15:52:57 <BillBug> EN: other questions?
15:54:33 <BillBug> EP: Panels recorded in XML?
15:54:35 <BillBug> SH: Our own XML dialect (XSD?)
15:54:36 <BillBug> EP: enables you to extract elements from panels (e.g., person's wt) for other uses?
15:54:38 <BillBug> SH: yes
15:54:40 <BillBug> EP: seems to be exact match to how RDF is designed to let individual STATEMENTS stand on their own in exactly this way - very promising for SemWeb synergy
15:55:54 <BillBug> SH: Statements
15:55:55 <BillBug> both unitary and compound
15:55:57 <BillBug> e.g., BP - may depend on qualification re: posture, etc.
15:55:58 <BillBug> need to deal with individual element inter-dependencies.
15:56:13 <ericP> slide 59: Hard Issues
15:58:40 <BillBug> VK: Is there underlying UML?
15:58:42 <BillBug> SH: Hard issue (second to last slide)
15:58:43 <BillBug> What is actually instantiated in the software object instantiation?
15:58:45 <BillBug> gamut: only core elements represented as objects - all other info are constraints
15:58:46 <BillBug> other end: ALL elements are instantiated as REAL objects (e.g., BP, wt, serium Na+, etc.)
15:58:48 <BillBug> We chose the middle layer as the appropriate layer to model in UML
15:58:49 <BillBug> at the VA - added their own constraint language to UML to model more detail
16:00:16 <BillBug> VK: balance between implementing ALL detail (and including detail in model) for serialization
16:00:17 <BillBug> vs. an Interlingua (where you have to limit detail for it to be relevant)
16:00:19 <BillBug> Of course, too abstract also has minimal utility (HL7 & RIM)
16:00:20 <BillBug> SH: exactly correct.
16:01:53 <BillBug> SH: Even within HL7 - been work to additionally constrain models to construct templates that are more immediately useful as opposed to being too abstract to be useful to a broad community with a variety of app requirements.
16:01:55 <BillBug> SH: From purely Modeling standpoint
16:01:57 <BillBug> models should be independent of these detailed application requirements
16:01:59 <BillBug> pick the model detail layer that you require.
16:03:38 <BillBug> EN: How much effort (e.g., code writing) is required to implement
16:03:39 <BillBug> Is it largely automatic
16:03:41 <BillBug> SH: right now, a lot of effort required
16:03:43 <BillBug> There are better ways to add automation to implementation
16:03:44 <BillBug> Should do more education for SW Engineers to communicate what our app requirements are.
16:03:46 <BillBug> q+
16:04:27 <BillBug> is model hierarchy a problem (typical UML & XML Schema problem)
16:05:55 <eneumann> ack BillBug
16:06:25 <BillBug> SH: We're very open to SemWeb Tech collaboration
16:06:26 <BillBug> remember: this work is a decade old
16:06:28 <BillBug> also - design decisions made and ran ahead of available tech
16:06:29 <BillBug> in HC IT commercial sector - have immediate needs the 
16:08:00 <BillBug> SH: Yes strict model hierachy is a problem
16:08:01 <BillBug> need polymorphism that includes multiple inheritance
16:08:03 <BillBug> both XML & Java get in our way of doing
16:08:20 <Zakim> -tn_bhat
16:09:11 <BillBug> EN: very useful for us
16:09:13 <BillBug> suggest those interested in HCLS have follow-up discussions
16:09:14 <BillBug> might be useful to have  short SemWeb presentation as mapped to the DCM goals
16:09:16 <BillBug> VK: could coordinate that
16:09:39 <BillBug> VK: Come up with interesting OTF tasks that include OWL representations of elements from the DCM
16:10:05 <eneumann> ACTION: Vipul to set up on folow-up call with DCM and Stan Huff to describe SW standards and uses
16:11:01 <BillBug> SH: That would be extremely useful
16:11:03 <BillBug> VK: Aware of Alan Rector work in OWL - will include
16:11:05 <BillBug> SH: We collaborate indirectly with Alan et al (at AMIA meetings, etc.)
16:11:33 <Zakim> -Olivier_Bodenreider
16:13:16 <vipul> Gotta go now ...
16:13:21 <BillBug> EN: last question
16:13:22 <BillBug> Work around clinical trials - overlaps with Drug Efficacy HCLS work.
16:13:24 <BillBug> Will see the BP example coming up there too.
16:13:25 <BillBug> We can contribute that the followup
16:13:28 <BillBug> Can help inform how OWL needs to evolve.
16:13:28 <vipul> Will follow up with Stan ...
16:13:28 <BillBug> Leave to VK to setup topics for agenda
16:13:30 <BillBug> VK: Yes - exactly what I had in mind
16:13:31 <BillBug> Examples from CDISC and clinical trials
16:13:33 <BillBug> EN: Has SH et al. worked with CDISC directly
16:13:34 <BillBug> SH: not directly - but very familiar with the work - have worked with them in past.
16:13:41 <BillBug> EN: We can help coordinate work with CDISC
16:13:42 <BillBug> SH: great
16:14:03 <BillBug> EN: Thanks SH et al for presentation - will be in touch to coordinate
16:14:04 <BillBug> EN: Next call a week from now
16:14:06 <Zakim> -Susie
16:14:09 <Zakim> -Tanya_Hongsermeier
16:14:11 <Zakim> -chimezie
16:14:12 <Zakim> -Rachael
16:14:13 <Zakim> -Eric_Neumann
16:14:13 <Zakim> -Stan_Huff
16:14:13 <BillBug> EN: continue on demo.
16:14:19 <Zakim> -EricP
16:14:26 <Zakim> -Bill_Bug
16:14:43 <eneumann> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-hcls-minutes.html eneumann
16:14:56 <eneumann> rrsagent, bye
16:14:56 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-hcls-actions.rdf :
16:14:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Vipul to set up on folow-up call with DCM and Stan Huff to describe SW standards and uses [1]
16:14:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/29-hcls-irc#T16-10-05