10:00:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #er
10:00:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc
10:00:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #er
10:00:26 <chaals> topic: pointers
10:01:37 <chaals> If you have a range pointer (and anyway), you need to know whether pointers like linecharpointers refer to a range of one character/byte/etc or to a point just befre/after them (which is conceptually pure and beautiful but seems the wrong choice)
10:19:24 <JohannesK> JohannesK has joined #er
10:19:46 <shadi> [discussion and refinement of pointers proposal by Johannes]
10:20:02 <shadi> action: Johannes to send proposal to the list
10:20:22 <CarlosI> do we need a pointer that points to a resource as a hole not to a part of a resource?, something like a ResourcePointer with just a reference property
10:20:26 <shadi> scribe: chaals, shadi, JohannesK, CarlosI
10:21:26 <shadi> action: Jim to read f2f minutes, consider proposals, and update the draft document accordingly
10:21:42 <shadi> RRSAgent, make logs world
10:21:46 <shadi> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:21:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
11:04:10 <shadi> Topic: EARL 1.0 Schema
11:04:23 <shadi> Known Issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/issues
11:05:06 <shadi> Current WD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/
11:05:24 <shadi> New internal draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/WD-EARL10-Schema-20070222
11:14:33 <chaals> ACTION: Shadi to say that recommended practice is to use foaf:name and one of foaf:mbox or foaf:mbox_sha1sum more clearly, and that foaf:organization should have foaf:homepage and foaf:name
11:15:51 <chaals> Using other RDF (e.g. Dublin Core) to more extensively describe the organisation is recommended. 
11:16:05 <chaals> ACTION: Chaals to write an example organisation
11:22:57 <chaals> RESOLUTION: Drop example 7 - it is as confusing as helpful and we prolly don't really need it anyway.
11:24:33 <chaals> ACTION: Shadi, make the result have one outcome property
11:26:20 <chaals> RESOLUTION: Change earl:instance to earl:pointer
11:27:31 <chaals> Should the pointer be restricted
11:28:01 <chaals> CMN: Don't think so, but recommend using pointer:pointer and making the ponter:reference be the earl:testSubject
11:41:06 <shadi> CI: what about several test subjects? for example, testing consistent navigation on 10 pages at the same time, how to record 10 test subjects in EARL?
11:41:39 <JohannesK> <http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/#collections>
11:42:04 <shadi> SAZ: either earl:TestSubjects, earl:WebContents, or >=1 earl:subject properties per assertion
11:42:24 <shadi> CI & JK: don't like the latter, prone for missuse
11:50:00 <shadi> solution: <earl:subject rdf:parseType="collection">
11:50:41 <shadi> <earl:WebContent rdf:about="...">...</WebContent>
11:50:43 <shadi> <earl:WebContent rdf:about="...">...</WebContent>
11:50:45 <shadi> ...
11:50:56 <shadi> </earl:subject>
11:52:04 <shadi> RESOLUTION: describing multiple test subjects must be explained in the EARL 1.0 Guide
11:52:29 <shadi> action: CarlosV and JK to implement this in the guide
11:57:22 <shadi> CI: can still be misused, for example to summarize several assertions into one
11:57:44 <shadi> ...can not be checked automatically, must be interpreted by the use case
11:59:53 <shadi> JK: how about using the dc:hasPart of the TestSubject class (to point to several sub-parts of a test subject)
12:04:04 <shadi> CI: still have some concerns, need to think about it
12:04:35 <shadi> action: SAZ to update example 7 accordingly (show the usage of multiple test subjects)
12:05:24 <shadi> action: CI to think about usage of dc:hasPart in TestSubject
12:11:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #er
12:30:24 <shadi> [discussion on earl:info -do we need a more elaborate warnings mechanism?]
12:30:55 <shadi> general impression: info depends on the test case descriptions
12:31:17 <shadi> CMN: leave the range of the info open so that people can subclass it or use it differently
12:33:27 <chaals> restricting it to Literal is a Very Bad Idea™
12:33:32 <shadi> SAZ: concerned about possible misuse, could add an earl:warning property when the time comes
12:35:00 <shadi> action: SAZ think about the usage of earl:info and bring to the mailing list as needed
12:40:49 <JibberJim> JibberJim has joined #er
12:41:32 <shadi> RRSAgent, make logs world
12:41:37 <shadi> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:41:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
13:54:03 <CarlosI> CarlosI has joined #er
13:54:26 <JohannesK> JohannesK has joined #er
13:57:25 <JohannesK_> JohannesK_ has joined #er
14:15:39 <chaals> chaals has joined #er
14:17:29 <chaals> SAZ: Think about test subjects that are an http protocol - e.g. if you are testing serve headers, how do we do that?
14:38:02 <shadi> [discussion about proposal to have earl:Content and drop WebContent & FileContent -see picture]
14:39:55 <shadi> SAZ: source of the content is open, context is optional
14:40:30 <shadi> example 1: for Web content, the source is either the actual response from the server or the URI if don't want to record the full content
14:41:01 <shadi> the context is the HTTP interaction with the server that was used to retrieve the source
14:41:02 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #er
14:41:13 <DanC_lap> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:41:13 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T14-41-13
14:41:37 <shadi> example 2: for file content, the source is either the actual file source or it is the file name
14:42:00 <shadi> the context is the filename if the source is provided, empty otherwise
14:44:43 <chaals> chaals has changed the topic to: ERT channel. Face to face meeting - http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2007/02/f2f-agenda
14:46:02 <chaals> you can make one now
14:48:20 <shadi> CMN: source property is always a copy of the actual content, leave empty if not recording the actual content
14:48:57 <shadi> SAZ: i am testing http://www.example.org/mypage.html, don't want to record the page in my report, what do i say?
14:49:16 <shadi> CMN: don't put a source, put the URI in the context
14:49:41 <shadi> ...the source is the content, the context is information about how you got it
14:50:24 <shadi> SAZ: in analogy, the same applies to file content
14:51:53 <shadi> SAZ: should encourage the usage of HTTP vocab for the context, even if not recording the source or the body stuff
14:53:55 <shadi> axtion: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff)
14:54:01 <shadi> action: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff)
14:56:50 <shadi> RESOLUTION: keep the schema normative and the terms informative (to avoid any discrepancies -in case of inconsistencies, the schema in the spec (appendix A) wins)
15:00:51 <shadi> action: SAZ remove foaf:Person from earl:SingleAssertor (its a subclass of foaf:Agent)
15:01:18 <shadi> SAZ: what if someone wants to define their own assertor?
15:01:37 <shadi> CMN: subclass foaf:Agent, which can be pretty much anything anyway
15:06:05 <shadi> SAZ: both earl:Software and earl:Content are not subclasses of earl:TestSubject, still we use them as testsubjects
15:06:27 <shadi> CMN: does the property earl:subject have earl:TestSubject as its range?
15:06:29 <shadi> SAZ: yes
15:06:57 <shadi> CMN: then anything at the end of that property will be parsed as a TestSubject
15:07:25 <shadi> SAZ: it only has to adhere to any TestSubject restrictions (currently there are actually no restrictions)
15:08:54 <shadi> action: SAZ add "suggested types" column and add earl:Content and earl:Software there (as opposed to having them in "allowable types")
15:10:40 <shadi> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
15:13:07 <chaals> agenda+ Using EARL in the GRDDL working group
15:13:26 <chaals> Topic: Using EARL in the GRDDL working group
15:13:30 <DanC_lap> I don't have any slides, but I'm happy to skype in and walk thru some web pages and code
15:13:40 <chaals> you want to show us stuff?
15:14:02 <chaals> (what is the question we are trying to answer)
15:14:27 <DanC_lap> dunno what question. this is just an experience report
15:14:40 <chaals> OK, that woud be great.
15:14:44 <chaals> wanna skype me?
15:14:52 <chaals> Or work through IRC..
15:16:31 <chaals> we are muted...
15:16:41 <shadi> but we can hear you! :)
15:17:01 <DanC_lap> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results
15:17:22 <chaals> waiting for FF
15:17:28 <chaals> ah, they got there too :)
15:18:22 <DanC_lap> a test: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#projectsSpreadsheet
15:18:42 <chaals> 2
15:19:24 <DanC_lap> application/rdf+xml attachment: raptor_earl.rdf
15:19:41 <DanC_lap> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/Makefile
15:19:43 <chaals> DanC: We have two implementation reports in EARL. The raptor 1 is online
15:20:30 <DanC_lap> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#earl_out
15:20:37 <DanC_lap> $ python testft.py \
15:20:38 <DanC_lap>   --tester 'dan.rdf#dwc' \
15:20:38 <DanC_lap>   --project 'grddlft.rdf#grddl_py' \
15:20:38 <DanC_lap>   --run your_grddl_impl \
15:20:38 <DanC_lap>   testlist1.rdf >earl_out.rdf
15:20:38 <DanC_lap>  All tests were passed!
15:21:10 <chaals> DanC: If you tell it about you and the project it gives you EARL...
15:21:20 <DanC_lap> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/earlsum.py
15:21:32 <DanC_lap> and out comes the table... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results
15:23:30 <DanC_lap> does earl have vocabulary for saying "target AA consists of tests 1 thru 6"?
15:24:10 <shadi> this is part of a test case description language
15:24:20 <shadi> yes, cannot tell
15:24:58 <chaals> CMN: No, we rely on saying "this RDF (== some result for AA) is equivalent to that result (== some result for each of tests 1 through 6)"
15:24:58 <DanC_lap> yeah...
15:24:59 <DanC_lap>       <earl:TestResult>
15:24:59 <DanC_lap>         <earl:validity rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL/nmg-strawman#pass"/>
15:24:59 <DanC_lap>       </earl:TestResult>
15:25:00 <shadi> danc: the outcomes of a test are specified here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/#validitylevel
15:25:12 <chaals> I had convinced myself that you could do that in OWL, a few years ago.
15:25:27 <DanC_lap> so perhaps on the TestResult, I could just not put a validity, but put an rdfs comment a la "I don't claim to pass nor fail; I claim the test is broken"
15:26:04 <DanC_lap> owl doesn't have part/whole as a built-in
15:26:59 <DanC_lap> to say {a} = {b,c,d} is to say that b=c=d=a
15:27:23 <chaals> right. Say {a} = {b+c+d}
15:28:27 <chaals> ACTION: CMN to follow this up and figure it out again.
15:29:44 <DanC_lap> the cost of namespace change goes up over time
15:30:14 <DanC_lap> it's OK to have a "subject to change without notice" policy around your namespace while you're working on it
15:30:25 <DanC_lap> or "subject to changes agreed in the ER WG"
15:30:26 <chaals> yeah, but painful in practice.
15:30:30 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2004Sep/0001
15:30:54 <chaals> ACTION: Shadi to make sure DanC is the first to know about namespace changes.
15:30:57 <DanC_lap> ok, unless there are any questions; shall I ring off?
15:31:12 <shadi> danc, see examples of OWL usage
15:31:13 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2004Sep/0001
15:31:30 <DanC_lap> (I just convinced myself of a reasonable way to say "the test is broken")
15:31:54 <chaals> DanC: The short answer is "it works"
15:31:59 <shadi> danc, what's wrong with using earl:cannotTell as a result then use dc:description to say the test is broken?
15:32:23 <DanC_lap> if you coin "cannot tell" or "test materials disputed", then I'll probably use them.
15:32:33 <chaals> we have cannotTell
15:32:39 <shadi> danc: the outcomes of a test are specified here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060927/#validitylevel
15:32:42 <DanC_lap> ah! news to me.
15:32:45 <chaals> but we are unlikely to coin "testDisputed"
15:32:50 <chaals> IMHO
15:33:21 <shadi> thanks for experience report and implementation!
15:34:28 <DanC_lap> re 2004Sep/0001, I should probably take an action, but I won't be around when the action is tracked. I would appreciate a reminder in a week or two.
15:35:16 <shadi> action: SAZ send DanC the OWL stuff
15:38:01 <shadi> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:38:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-minutes.html shadi
16:03:53 <CarlosI_> CarlosI_ has joined #er
16:19:42 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-actions.rdf :
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Johannes to send proposal to the list [1]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T10-20-02
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim to read f2f minutes, consider proposals, and update the draft document accordingly [2]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T10-21-26
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shadi to say that recommended practice is to use foaf:name and one of foaf:mbox or foaf:mbox_sha1sum more clearly, and that foaf:organization should have foaf:homepage and foaf:name [3]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-14-33
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chaals to write an example organisation [4]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-16-05
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shadi, make the result have one outcome property [5]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-24-33
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: CarlosV and JK to implement this in the guide [6]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T11-52-29
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SAZ to update example 7 accordingly (show the usage of multiple test subjects) [7]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-04-35
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: CI to think about usage of dc:hasPart in TestSubject [8]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-05-24
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SAZ think about the usage of earl:info and bring to the mailing list as needed [9]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T12-35-00
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SAZ drop date property from the content class (that's all context stuff) [10]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T14-54-01
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SAZ remove foaf:Person from earl:SingleAssertor (its a subclass of foaf:Agent) [11]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-00-51
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SAZ add "suggested types" column and add earl:Content and earl:Software there (as opposed to having them in "allowable types") [12]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-08-54
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: CMN to follow this up and figure it out again. [13]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-28-27
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shadi to make sure DanC is the first to know about namespace changes. [14]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-30-54
16:19:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SAZ send DanC the OWL stuff [15]
16:19:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/23-er-irc#T15-35-16