IRC log of ws-desc on 2007-02-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:08:34 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ws-desc
15:08:34 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc
15:08:42 [Jonathan]: Zakim, this is WSDL
15:08:42 [Zakim]: ok, Jonathan; that matches WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM
15:08:50 [Jonathan]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:50 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Jonathan_Marsh
15:08:59 [Zakim]: -Jonathan_Marsh
15:09:01 [Zakim]: WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has ended
15:09:02 [Zakim]: Attendees were Jonathan_Marsh
15:10:59 [Zakim]: WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has now started
15:11:01 [Zakim]: +??P30
15:11:09 [TonyR]: zakim, ?? is me
15:11:09 [Zakim]: +TonyR; got it
15:16:09 [Zakim]: +Jonathan_Marsh
15:16:11 [Zakim]: -Jonathan_Marsh
15:16:12 [Zakim]: +Jonathan_Marsh
15:18:09 [alewis]: alewis has joined #ws-desc
15:18:20 [Zakim]: +Arthur
15:18:58 [Zakim]: +[Canon]
15:19:16 [Arthur]: Arthur has joined #ws-desc
15:20:46 [youenn]: youenn has joined #ws-desc
15:21:45 [Jonathan]: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/sawsdl/CR/testsuite
15:26:01 [Zakim]: -Jonathan_Marsh
15:26:05 [Zakim]: -[Canon]
15:26:07 [Zakim]: -Arthur
15:26:21 [Zakim]: -TonyR
15:26:22 [Zakim]: WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has ended
15:26:23 [Zakim]: Attendees were TonyR, Jonathan_Marsh, Arthur, [Canon]
15:46:21 [pauld]: pauld has joined #ws-desc
15:46:49 [pauld]: sends regrets, having too much time making phones ring
15:46:56 [pauld]: s/time/fun/
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16:01:53 [JacekK]: zakim, this is ws-desc
16:02:02 [Zakim]: sorry, JacekK, I do not see a conference named 'ws-desc' in progress or scheduled at this time
16:02:11 [JacekK]: zakim, this is wsdwg
16:02:14 [Zakim]: ok, JacekK; that matches WS_DescWG()11:00AM
16:02:26 [JacekK]: zakim, who is here?
16:02:32 [Zakim]: On the phone I see alewis, JacekK, +1.541.752.aaaa, [Sun]
16:02:42 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JacekK, Roberto, Allen, pauld, youenn, Arthur, alewis, RRSAgent, Zakim, Jonathan, TonyR
16:03:55 [Zakim]: +Arthur
16:04:17 [Zakim]: +Jonathan_Marsh
16:04:56 [Arthur]: anyone home?
16:05:15 [Jonathan]: Zakim, aaaa is Allen
16:05:15 [Zakim]: +Allen; got it
16:05:27 [Zakim]: +??P46
16:05:36 [charlton]: charlton has joined #ws-desc
16:05:39 [Zakim]: +??P48
16:05:40 [Jonathan]: Zakim, ??P46 is Chalton
16:05:41 [Zakim]: +Chalton; got it
16:05:50 [Jonathan]: Zakim, Chalton is Charlton
16:05:50 [Zakim]: +Charlton; got it
16:05:52 [TonyR]: zakim, ??p48 is me
16:05:52 [Zakim]: +TonyR; got it
16:06:48 [alewis]: scribe: alewis
16:07:03 [alewis]: minutes accepted.
16:07:40 [alewis]: topic: action items: bang, bang, everything reviewed
16:07:55 [alewis]: topic: administrivia: skip over
16:08:07 [alewis]: topic: one-way mep review for xmlp
16:08:20 [alewis]: jonathan: any objections to forwarding comments?
16:08:37 [alewis]: ACTION: jonathan to forward comments on one-way mep to XMLP working group
16:09:19 [alewis]: topic: ws-policy fragment identifiers
16:09:49 [JacekK]: q+
16:09:59 [alewis]: jonathan: don't understand why this exists; it doesn't work properly
16:10:03 [Zakim]: +[Canon]
16:10:10 [Jonathan]: ack jacek
16:10:12 [alewis]: arthur: exists to match wsdl 2.0 component designators
16:10:22 [alewis]: jonathan: has big problem with imports and includes
16:11:27 [alewis]: jacek: component identifiers do work properly for wsdl 2.0.
16:11:52 [alewis]: (or maybe jacek was talking about the 1.1 identifiers?)
16:12:19 [alewis]: arthur and jacek seem to think that the identifiers are okay; jonathan now uncertain of his analysis.
16:13:07 [alewis]: jacek: since imported things are in their own namespace, everything actually does work.
16:13:22 [alewis]: jonathan: will take another look, trying to find a case that's unclear as an example.
16:13:33 [alewis]: arthur: targetNamespace isn't required in 1.1, is it?
16:15:33 [alewis]: defer for a week, review again and discuss; jonathan continues to believe that there may be a simpler approach.
16:16:04 [alewis]: topic: ws-addressing metadata draft in last call, want review within three weeks.
16:16:13 [alewis]: jonathan: call for volunteers to review.
16:17:45 [Zakim]: -Allen
16:18:31 [plh]: plh has joined #ws-desc
16:18:42 [Zakim]: +Plh
16:19:07 [alewis]: topic: cr 112, awaiting a proposal from philippe
16:19:35 [alewis]: topic: cr117, escaping in http {location}
16:19:53 [alewis]: jonathan has tried to write up option one in more detail.
16:20:10 [alewis]: needs massaging, to incorporate clarifications.
16:20:27 [alewis]: youenn has clarified option two, as well, making one and two fairly compatible (?)
16:20:32 [chad]: chad has joined #ws-desc
16:21:51 [Zakim]: +Gilbert_Pilz
16:22:04 [gpilz]: gpilz has joined #ws-desc
16:22:09 [alewis]: discussion of parameter encoding, issues raised by jacek in email.
16:22:15 [scribe-jjm]: scribe-jjm has joined #ws-desc
16:23:40 [charlton]: zakim, mute me
16:23:40 [Zakim]: Charlton should now be muted
16:24:15 [alewis]: youenn: need to remove ampersand, colon, equals (all special URL characters that might have a special use in a URL) should be encoded, to be safe.
16:24:51 [alewis]: youenn offers to send a list of characters which may have to be encoded.
16:25:20 [alewis]: discussion of which ones need it, attempting to talk out the list.
16:28:00 [alewis]: jonathan: if we update list to include query parameters, does that solve it?
16:28:34 [alewis]: jacek has pointed out that question mark and slash are in wrong place.
16:28:52 [alewis]: jonathan will move those two.
16:29:58 [alewis]: jonathan: okay, what do people prefer?
16:30:48 [alewis]: discussion of some other characters (tilde, exclamation point)
16:31:41 [alewis]: three changes: encode query parameter separator, move two characters, [something else i missed]
16:31:42 [alewis]: ready to adopt?
16:32:01 [alewis]: no objections heard
16:32:19 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR117 resolved with option one as modified.
16:32:36 [Jonathan]: s/[something else i missed]/add provision to encode query parameter separater/
16:34:23 [JacekK]: s/separater/separator, and change tilde to exclamation point/
16:34:30 [JacekK]: topic: issue CR143
16:35:27 [Zakim]: +??P0
16:35:45 [alewis]: jonathan has had offline discussions with various folks on handling the http binding.
16:36:01 [Allen]: zakim, ??P0 is Allen
16:36:01 [Zakim]: +Allen; got it
16:36:15 [alewis]: proposal is to change transfer-coding to content-encoding in the syntax, in the name of the property, and to clarify the description.
16:36:35 [alewis]: call for comments: none heard
16:37:10 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR 143 closed with the resolution: change transfer-encoding to content-encoding, clarify description.
16:37:22 [alewis]: topic: CR 146
16:37:58 [youenn_]: youenn_ has joined #ws-desc
16:38:12 [alewis]: jonathan can't remember why this wasn't closed with acceptance of the proposal from last week's minutes.
16:39:06 [alewis]: anything thrown out with ignoreUncited=true must be nillable; postponed because youenn wasn't around.
16:40:40 [Jonathan]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Feb/0009.html
16:43:26 [alewis]: jonathan: this is fairly esoteric
16:45:10 [alewis]: jacek, jonathan: should we be describing receiver behavior?
16:45:44 [alewis]: arthur: it's not about behavior, it's about the appearance of the message on the wire, and whether that can be unambiguous.
16:46:26 [alewis]: jonathan: is this really worth fixing?
16:46:55 [alewis]: jacek: interop problem appears when two different services are created from the same wsdl, and they differ in how they handle missing bits.
16:47:16 [alewis]: jonathan: best way to handle that is to tell people not to combine default and nillable.
16:47:26 [alewis]: arthur: add an assertion (a should)
16:48:05 [alewis]: youenn, jonathan: maybe just change "must" in proposal to "should" ?
16:48:44 [Zakim]: -Roberto
16:49:48 [alewis]: jonathan: want this resolved. maybe no one really cares and it could be closed with no action?
16:50:03 [Zakim]: +Paul_Downey
16:50:28 [alewis]: arthur: prefer to err on the side of interop rather than flexibility.
16:51:12 [alewis]: jonathan: reiterate proposal in email, with grammatical cleanup and the additional should.
16:52:08 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR 146 closed with the email proposal from jonathan, as modified.
16:52:30 [alewis]: topic: CR 147
16:52:50 [alewis]: the safety flag as semantics.
16:52:50 [pauld]: scribe: pauld
16:53:49 [pauld]: jacek: introduces the issue, WSDL doesn't describe semantics, apart from "safety" sawsdl is a framework for annotating WSDL with semantics
16:54:37 [pauld]: .. as chair of the SAWSDL WG i believe our specification is a better mechanism than the WSDL WG defined annotation
16:55:09 [pauld]: arthur: I don't agree it's semantic, it allows you to understand when you can use GET
16:55:27 [pauld]: marsh: I thought the use-case was to flag POST
16:55:47 [pauld]: jacek: and you can't explicitly say an operation is NOT safe
16:56:01 [Zakim]: -Charlton
16:56:33 [pauld]: marsh: if an operation is known not to be safe, then you can't bind to GET
16:56:53 [pauld]: .. it's a syntax discussion, and the impact on our component model
16:57:13 [pauld]: .. we should be aware it could be hard to use and changes our syntax
16:57:23 [asir]: asir has joined #ws-desc
16:57:48 [pauld]: marsh: my personal position is it is a semantic annotation and cleaner in an extension, and the GET is a small feature
16:57:54 [Zakim]: +??P1
16:58:17 [pauld]: .. we may receive comments from the TAG if we removed our safety feature
16:59:45 [alewis]: scribe: alewis
17:00:05 [alewis]: paul: it seems clearer if it is left to the sawsdl working group
17:00:13 [alewis]: jonathan: can we leave this to another working group at this stage?
17:01:10 [alewis]: jonathan: an alternative is to have sawsdl define on top of the existing safety property, so there would be two syntaxes for the same property.
17:02:21 [alewis]: paul: would be nice to remove, though, so that there's no possible confusion, and it can't get lost.
17:02:58 [alewis]: jonathan: tag likes safety to be visible and easy to use; maybe better to do it as one of several semantic annotations, but might be late to do it.
17:03:42 [alewis]: jacek: proposes actually asking the tag whether this could be moved to sawsdl, and to delay resolution until they respond.
17:04:14 [alewis]: jonathan, jacek: note that this is not dropping something that is not at risk, but moving it from one CR to another CR.
17:04:39 [alewis]: ACTION: Jacek to approach TAG on subject of moving "safety" annotation from WSDL specification to SAWSDL
17:04:52 [pauld]: presumably the SAWSDL URI could have value outside of WSDL, so the TAG might prefer such a solution
17:04:59 [alewis]: topic: cr 129
17:05:24 [alewis]: instead of generic "message label", replace with "in" and "out".
17:05:46 [asir]: +1 to close without any action
17:06:03 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR 129 closed with no action (based on misinterpretation of message labels)
17:07:22 [alewis]: topic: CR 132: should have a should that says that only elements which are appropriate to a given operation should be allowed.
17:07:54 [Jonathan]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Jan/0000.html
17:08:18 [alewis]: jonathan posts url of mail from arthur containing a shorter formulation
17:08:40 [Zakim]: +m2
17:09:10 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR 132 closed with the first two assertions from the original mail, last two from arthur's amendment.
17:10:30 [alewis]: topic: CR 136: resolved as editorial
17:10:50 [alewis]: topic: CR 137: propose resolution as editorial, typographical
17:11:15 [alewis]: topic: CR 138: propose resolution as editorial
17:11:44 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR 136, 137, 138 resolved as editorial
17:12:57 [alewis]: jacek: wait, isn't this about the property, so it *isn't* actually a union? property always populated with specifics.
17:14:58 [alewis]: question of whether #any or #none make sense. argument is that it doesn't make sense, since there's no point in defining a fault if you don't actually define it.
17:15:45 [alewis]: jacek: but #other still makes sense. and therefore we need to change the content model, modeling it on interface message reference.
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17:16:14 [alewis]: replace current with #other or #element.
17:16:54 [Zakim]: -Paul_Downey
17:17:38 [alewis]: general agreement that #any and #none actually do make sense in this context.
17:17:46 [alewis]: arthur: in that case, it's exactly parallel to message?
17:18:19 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR 138 to be resolved by making fault references identical to interface message references.
17:19:45 [alewis]: s/fault references/faults/
17:21:06 [alewis]: topic: CR 139: objection to definition/description of wsdl in various places in the spec.
17:22:13 [alewis]: jacek: procedural not used elsewhere, document-oriented not used elsewhere.
17:23:14 [alewis]: jacek: network service also only used in part two abstract.
17:23:39 [alewis]: jacek: modify abstract in part two to match part one. wsdl is a language for describing web services.
17:25:17 [alewis]: RESOLVED: CR 139 closed as editorial, editors instructed to make part two use same definition as part one.
17:28:16 [Arthur]: Concerning the previous issue on the Abstract, we should refer to http://www.w3.org/TR/ws-arch/ for the definition of Web Service
17:28:40 [Arthur]: i.e. CR139
17:30:01 [alewis]: jonathan: there's a header that canon and wsos2 are both using; just add it, since it aids interop?
17:30:27 [alewis]: jacek: no, this is an entity header; can't be used in this fashion.
17:32:08 [Arthur]: CR 148 I think Amy
17:32:17 [alewis]: ACTION: jacek to investigate soap and http with respect to soap action header
17:33:21 [TonyR]: action 2=
17:33:32 [Zakim]: -Allen
17:33:33 [Zakim]: -JacekK
17:33:34 [Zakim]: -Jonathan_Marsh
17:33:35 [Zakim]: -m2
17:33:36 [Zakim]: -[Canon]
17:33:38 [Zakim]: -Arthur
17:33:40 [Zakim]: -Gilbert_Pilz
17:33:42 [Zakim]: -TonyR
17:33:44 [Zakim]: -asir
17:34:05 [Zakim]: -Plh
17:34:12 [Arthur]: Arthur has left #ws-desc
17:34:13 [TonyR]: TonyR has left #ws-desc
17:34:18 [Zakim]: -alewis
17:34:19 [Zakim]: WS_DescWG()11:00AM has ended
17:34:21 [Zakim]: Attendees were alewis, JacekK, +1.541.752.aaaa, Roberto, Arthur, Jonathan_Marsh, Allen, Charlton, TonyR, [Canon], Plh, Gilbert_Pilz, Paul_Downey, asir, m2
17:34:23 [Jonathan]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:34:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
17:35:00 [Jonathan]: RRSAgent, set log world
17:35:02 [Jonathan]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:35:02 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
17:35:31 [Jonathan]: Meeting: WS Description WG telcon
17:35:38 [Jonathan]: Chair: Jonathan
17:36:10 [Jonathan]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:36:10 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
17:52:05 [pauld]: pauld has left #ws-desc
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22:13:55 [plh]: rrsagent, bye
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-actions.rdf :
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jonathan to forward comments on one-way mep to XMLP working group [1]
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T16-08-37
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: [2]
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T16-34-30
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jacek to approach TAG on subject of moving "safety" annotation from WSDL specification to SAWSDL [3]
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T17-04-39
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jacek to investigate soap and http with respect to soap action header [4]
22:13:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc#T17-32-17
22:14:00 [plh]: plh has left #ws-desc