IRC log of htmltf on 2007-01-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:59 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:52:07 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
13:52:25 [RalphS]
13:52:57 [RalphS]
Previous: 2007-01-08
13:53:34 [RalphS]
F2F minutes:
13:53:39 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
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14:01:49 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
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14:02:24 [Zakim]
14:02:40 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:02:40 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
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14:03:27 [Zakim]
14:04:17 [MarkB_]
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14:05:31 [Zakim]
14:05:35 [MarkB_]
zakim i am ?
14:05:41 [MarkB_]
zakim, i am ?
14:05:41 [Zakim]
+MarkB_; got it
14:07:01 [mhausenblas]
zakim, what conference is this?
14:07:01 [Zakim]
this is SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM conference code 7927
14:07:16 [mhausenblas]
Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 29-01-2007, 14:00 UTC
14:07:39 [mhausenblas]
14:08:41 [Zakim]
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14:11:14 [RalphS]
F2F minutes:
14:14:23 [Steven]
Scribe: STeven
14:14:29 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
14:14:40 [Steven]
Topic: FTF Results
14:14:46 [Steven]
14:15:11 [Steven]
Ben: We agreed to potentially take all three of our docs to Rec track
14:15:51 [Steven]
Michael: Please remind people reviewing doc to CC our mailing list
14:15:56 [Steven]
Ben: AGreed
14:16:00 [Steven]
14:16:21 [Steven]
Topic: XHTML 1.1 Module
14:16:39 [Steven]
Ben: APril 1 is the decision day for deciding if this module should go to Rec
14:16:51 [Steven]
... s/AP/Ap/
14:17:07 [Steven]
14:17:50 [Steven]
... let's in any case not be bogged down by the problems around HTML/XHTML
14:18:07 [Steven]
Mark: The module is fine
14:18:20 [Steven]
... I've been doing work on it, been working with Shane a lot
14:18:50 [Steven]
... I've been updating it to match the new Modularization schema's (v1.1)
14:19:05 [Steven]
... but it seems like I have used some incorrect schemas
14:19:20 [Steven]
... so Shane is trying to sort it out
14:19:29 [Steven]
... it's not a lot of work, more coordination
14:19:59 [Steven]
... I'll try to do it Wednesday, during the XHTML call
14:20:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
14:21:23 [RalphS]
Steven: there are two "1.1"s:
14:21:37 [RalphS]
... Modularization 1.1 and XHTML 1.1
14:21:54 [RalphS]
... both will be rev'd; Modularization first, then XHTML
14:22:38 [RalphS]
... Modularization 1.1 is about to go to Proposed Rec; it's completed Last Call, needs no CR
14:22:45 [RalphS]
... Modularization 1.1 includes schemas
14:23:37 [RalphS]
-> XHTML Modularization 1.1 Last Call WD
14:24:02 [RalphS]
Steven: XHTML Modularization 1.0 only does DTDs, so it's not of much use to RDFa
14:24:56 [Steven]
Mark: There is nothing to stop us doing a draft of RDFa anyway, but it is easier if they walk in step
14:25:11 [Steven]
... but there's no timing problem
14:25:42 [Steven]
Ben: Can we make mid-end February?
14:25:46 [Steven]
Mark: Should be fine
14:26:04 [Steven]
Ben: Can it be put up somewhere just so we can look at it?
14:26:21 [Steven]
Mark: Yes, I can put it in our source control; it's just some schemas
14:26:26 [Steven]
Ben: Excellent
14:26:43 [Steven]
ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where
14:26:44 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
14:27:23 [RalphS]
trackbot, bye
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14:27:56 [mhausenblas]
14:28:00 [Steven]
Michael: One other point
14:28:21 [Steven]
... we need to clarify the FAQ
14:28:40 [Steven]
... particularly the one about using RDFa with any version of HTML
14:28:52 [Steven]
Ben: We've answered that question many times
14:29:09 [RalphS]
Is Michael talking about 2.1.1. Can I use RDFa on any HTML version?
14:29:47 [RalphS]
Steven: differentiate _valid_ HTML and _conformant_ HTML
14:29:58 [RalphS]
... since the HTML rules say to ignore elements and attributes you don't recognize
14:30:16 [RalphS]
... validation is a question
14:30:45 [RalphS]
... it's important to distinguish between _valid_ and _conformant; when people use new things it's important that they know this is not an error
14:31:02 [RalphS]
Ben: people also want to know how the new things will affect browser rendering
14:31:30 [Steven]
Michael: When people compare RDFa with Microformats
14:31:33 [MarkB_]
Also should incorporate the 'gentle slope' idea:
14:31:37 [Steven]
... this point comes up
14:31:45 [RalphS]
Ben: but there is no W3C branded validator that will accept new elements and attributes
14:31:53 [Steven]
Topic: Action items
14:32:18 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to update uc2, image src, uc4, no innerHTML, add link to GetN3 bookmarklet [recorded in]
14:32:33 [RalphS]
-- done
14:32:43 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in]
14:33:07 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:33:26 [RalphS]
Michael: I did some work, would like to invite others to contribute
14:33:38 [RalphS]
... ok to leave "ToDo's" for me
14:33:43 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker [recorded in]
14:33:47 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:34:11 [RalphS]
Michael: the mail generated by tracker currently goes [only] to the SWD WG list
14:35:21 [Steven]
Ralph: Two things came out of the FtF: 1) That SWD are aware and feel ownership of issues
14:35:43 [Steven]
... I will look into tracker sending mails to both lists
14:35:54 [RalphS]
-> SWD issues list
14:37:21 [Steven]
... I think when the new XHTML WG is underway, we should reevaluate the division of labour
14:37:25 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to when the new wiki issues list page is created [recorded in]
14:37:28 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:37:46 [RalphS]
s/labour/mail to WG lists/
14:38:17 [RalphS]
- done
14:38:21 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in]
14:38:23 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:38:35 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in]
14:38:38 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:38:49 [Steven]
Ben: Not sure when ELias is back
14:38:56 [Steven]
14:39:30 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in]
14:39:34 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:39:37 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in]
14:39:55 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:40:35 [RalphS]
Ben: SWD WG resolved that RDFa is not required to implement all of RDF/XML
14:40:44 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in]
14:40:51 [Steven]
... if there's no use case for it
14:41:05 [RalphS]
-- withdrawn
14:41:09 [RalphS]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in]
14:41:11 [Steven]
Ben: Someone volunteered to help with generation of test cases
14:41:16 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:41:25 [benadida]
"someone" is Wing from IBM
14:41:53 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in]
14:42:02 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:42:10 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week [recorded in]
14:42:20 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:42:27 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload problem [recorded in]
14:42:45 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:42:48 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in]
14:42:54 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:43:00 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and RDFa [recorded in]
14:43:07 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:43:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
14:44:15 [Steven]
Ben: On the new docs, I will update this week
14:44:20 [Steven]
s/new //
14:44:26 [Steven]
Topic: FtF Slight return
14:45:01 [Steven]
Ralph: Monday evening (this is point 2 from above) we had an informal get together. Guus did a demo of his prize-winning museum system
14:45:24 [Steven]
... Tim asked if the HTML pages contained RDFa, and Guus said "of course they do"
14:45:39 [mhausenblas]
14:45:58 [Steven]
... Ben went into a corner and tried it with his tools, and then stepped up and demod cutting and pasting fromn the pages
14:46:09 [Steven]
... and got a round of applause!
14:46:13 [benadida]
RDFa clipboard:
14:46:28 [RalphS]
Topic: Cambridge SemWeb get-together demo
14:47:01 [benadida]
14:48:11 [MarkB_]
more applause!!
14:48:14 [benadida]
14:49:02 [RalphS]
Ben: only tested in FireFox
14:49:49 [Steven]
Steven: Doesn't yet work in Opera
14:50:19 [Steven]
Ben: Maybe submit to Devtrack at WWW2007
14:51:17 [RalphS]
Ben: click 'copy', click the scissors item, the use the normal OS 'copy' item
14:51:45 [RalphS]
... then go to the scissors on rdfa-clipboard, click there, and 'paste'
14:52:15 [mhausenblas]
I am overhelmed
14:52:27 [Steven]
Steven: s/hel/whel/
14:52:33 [Steven]
14:52:46 [Steven]
Ben: I need to write this up
14:53:14 [Steven]
... and put it somewhere safe so that my machine doesn't get overwhelmed
14:54:31 [RalphS]
Ralph: it would be fine to put the bookmarklets in SWD WG space on
14:54:32 [Steven]
Steven: There is an issue of an icon for RDFa, just while I remember it
14:54:56 [RalphS]
Topic: Overloading @CLASS
14:55:16 [MarkB_]
more applause ;)
14:55:17 [RalphS]
Steven: word reached me that TimBL is unhappy about RDFa using @CLASS
14:55:48 [Steven]
Ben: Yes, you're warnings were right
14:55:57 [RalphS]
14:55:58 [Steven]
... he added RDFa to a page with lots of classes
14:56:07 [MarkB_]
prescient ;)
14:56:19 [benadida]
<div class="notice">
14:56:19 [Steven]
... and tons of spurious triples were generated
14:56:20 [benadida]
14:56:22 [benadida]
14:56:48 [benadida]
<div class="notice" about="http://...#me">
14:57:15 [Steven]
... this says that a person is of type 'notice'
14:57:30 [Steven]
... based on that we talked about two possible fixes
14:57:40 [Steven]
... 1) not @class but @type
14:58:23 [Steven]
... which I don't like
14:58:40 [Steven]
... 2) Only consider classes that have a prefix
14:58:47 [Steven]
... which I like more
14:59:24 [mhausenblas]
what is about class=":Person" then ?
14:59:43 [MarkB_]
14:59:53 [Steven]
... there is also a similar ul/ol problem
15:00:10 [Steven]
Ralph: Unfortunately we didn't make a copy of the whiteboard
15:00:36 [Steven]
... Tim was distinguish between real DOM nodes and 'virtual' RDF nodes
15:00:47 [Steven]
15:01:09 [Steven]
... and trying to understand which crossed over between the two
15:01:44 [Steven]
... so there were two questions, one the many triples problem, and Ben tried to argue that the triples were really there
15:02:10 [Steven]
... but the resolution was that they may not be incorrect, but they are unexpected, and therefore noise
15:03:17 [Steven]
... In the context of lists (I hope Ben will write this up) that lists will only generate triples when there is an explicit subject
15:03:44 [Steven]
Ben: uls/ols must have an explicit subject, not bnodes linking to bnodes
15:04:07 [Steven]
... this is a garbage collection problem
15:04:49 [Steven]
Ralph: Tim added a little bit of RDFa to a page, and ran it through the bookmarklet, and was looking for what he expected, and it was there, but hard to find
15:05:12 [Steven]
ack mark
15:05:27 [Steven]
Mark: I'm wary about changing the syntax to cope with these things
15:05:38 [Steven]
... there is a difference between authoring and consuming the triples
15:06:36 [mhausenblas]
q+ to support Mark with concuming issue
15:06:37 [Steven]
... and having extra rules to prevent triples needs to be solved at the consuming level. I'm worried we will be blocking potential use cases
15:07:04 [Steven]
... If I use rel='stylesheet'. That is a real triple, even if the author hadn't intended it
15:07:23 [Steven]
... we must distinguish between authoring and consuming
15:07:38 [Steven]
... and not block potentially useful information
15:07:58 [Steven]
... I don't like the concept of 'reducing noise'.
15:08:11 [Steven]
Ben: The only syntax change proposed was related to @class
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15:09:52 [RalphS]
Mark: we may want to add switches to select whether unprefixed class values generate triples
15:10:19 [Steven_]
Scribenick: Steven_
15:10:24 [Zakim]
RalphS, you wanted to note that the only syntax change that came out of the breakout concerns @class
15:10:46 [Steven_]
Mark: The key thing is that some people use class as a presentation thing, and some as semantic
15:11:26 [mhausenblas]
May I comment, please ...
15:11:39 [Steven_]
Ralph: It is consistent to say that the triples using @class are really there, but many people don't mean them as such
15:12:04 [Steven_]
... so do all semantics present in an HTML doc deserve to be output as triples?
15:13:11 [MarkB_]
But my point is that even talking of 'being output' is wrong. It's a 'pull' not a 'push' approach.
15:13:22 [Steven_]
... there's also the issue of a node in the DOM tree representing a person
15:13:30 [Steven_]
Mark: we need to resurrect that issue
15:13:37 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to support Mark with concuming issue
15:13:50 [MarkB_]
In brief, there is no way to refer to a DOM node. :)
15:14:19 [Steven_]
Michael: I support Mark. The triples are really there, whether the author thought of them as such or not
15:14:34 [Steven_]
... the triples are for machines, not humans
15:15:07 [Steven_]
Mark: So we are saying the opposite of microformats? :-) Put the machine first :-)
15:15:59 [Steven_]
Ralph: We want to give a uniform semantics to HTML attributes, and we think that styling semantics are not against regular semantics
15:16:08 [Steven_]
... microformats does this after all.
15:16:26 [Steven_]
... But Tim says that microformats does not have consistent semantics for class
15:16:35 [Steven_]
... you have to interpret it in context
15:16:55 [Steven_]
... so it is different there
15:17:07 [Steven_]
Mark: There are people who use class properly
15:17:49 [Steven_]
Ralph: We do have a stronger case with XHTML2/XHTML 1.2, but post-applying them to HTML weakens our argument
15:18:06 [Steven_]
... TimBL will continue to raise a fuss until we justify our position
15:18:33 [Steven_]
Mark: But great work guys in getting Tim's attention, and writing RDFa
15:19:32 [Steven_]
Topic: Wrap up
15:20:06 [Steven_]
Ben: Michael, I wonder if you would coordinate the creation of test cases?
15:20:12 [Steven_]
Michael: Sure!
15:20:29 [Steven_]
Ben: I will champion the use case doc, and primer
15:20:40 [Steven_]
... Steven would you be willing to help with the syntax doc?
15:20:42 [Steven_]
Steven: Sure
15:20:54 [Steven_]
Ben: Next week we will attack some urgent issues
15:21:21 [Steven_]
ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case production
15:21:56 [Steven_]
Ralph: Is the Primer ready for tomorrow?
15:22:01 [Steven_]
Ben: That's the goal
15:22:16 [RalphS]
next meeting: 5 Feb
15:22:23 [Zakim]
15:22:25 [Zakim]
15:22:25 [Zakim]
15:22:27 [Steven_]
... next meeting same place, same time
15:22:29 [Zakim]
15:22:30 [Steven_]
15:22:33 [Zakim]
15:22:35 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:22:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ben_Adida, Ralph, Steven, MarkB_
15:22:42 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:22:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven_
15:23:15 [Steven_]
15:23:20 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:23:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven_
15:24:37 [mhausenblas]
bye everyone ...
15:25:58 [benadida]
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15:38:45 [Steven_]
I propose we meet in irc channel #rdfa in the future, to make the URL of the minutes more obvious
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