17:51:40 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:51:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/01/02-tagmem-irc 17:51:46 Meeting: TAG 17:51:46 Date: 2 Jan 2007 17:51:46 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jan/0000.html 17:51:46 Chair: Vincent 17:51:46 Scribe: Norm 17:51:47 ScribeNick: Norm 17:58:46 Vincent has joined #tagmem 18:00:11 Ed has joined #tagmem 18:00:18 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started 18:00:25 +Ed_Rice 18:01:00 +[IBMCambridge] 18:01:13 +Norm 18:01:42 + +1.347.661.aaaa 18:02:06 zakim, +[IBM is noah 18:02:06 sorry, ndw, I do not recognize a party named '+[IBM' 18:02:16 zakim, IBMC is noah 18:02:16 sorry, ndw, I do not recognize a party named 'IBMC' 18:02:20 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:02:20 On the phone I see Ed_Rice, [IBMCambridge], Norm, +1.347.661.aaaa 18:02:29 zakim, IBMCambridge is noah 18:02:29 +noah; got it 18:02:33 zakim, aaaa is Vincent 18:02:33 +Vincent; got it 18:02:35 zakim, +[IMBCambridge] is noah 18:02:35 sorry, Ed, I do not recognize a party named '+[IMBCambridge]' 18:02:50 zakim, +[IBMCambridge] is noah 18:02:50 sorry, Ed, I do not recognize a party named '+[IBMCambridge]' 18:02:56 I beat you to it, ed :-) 18:03:39 Regrets: TV, Dan, Henry, Dave 18:03:47 timbl_ has joined #tagmem 18:03:56 zakim, who is here? 18:03:56 On the phone I see Ed_Rice, noah, Norm, Vincent 18:03:56 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:03:57 On IRC I see timbl_, Ed, Vincent, RRSAgent, Zakim, noah, ndw 18:03:58 On the phone I see Ed_Rice, noah, Norm, Vincent 18:04:20 +TimBL 18:05:19 Topic: Administrative 18:05:32 Present: Ed, Noah, Norm, Vincent, TimBL 18:05:45 Approve minutes of last telcon? 18:06:03 Approved. 18:06:15 Next telcon? 9 Jan 2007 18:06:34 Norm gives regrets for 9 Jan and 16 Jan 18:06:58 TimBL gives probable regrets for 9 Jan 18:07:31 Henry proposed to scribe. 18:07:40 Ed volunteers to back him up. 18:08:15 Vincent proposes to invite Stuart to the 30 Jan telcon 18:08:39 Noah: I think it's appropriate to invite Stuart to begin participating as soon as he's ready. 18:08:58 Vincent: Let's invite him to the 23 Jan call then. 18:09:36 ACTION: Vincent to invite Stuart to join us in January 18:09:50 Accept this agenda? 18:09:58 Accepted. 18:10:06 Topic: Update on recent actions 18:11:21 Vincent: Ed, you were supposed to get in touch with the Web Security Context WG 18:11:28 Ed: I sent a message this morning. 18:11:44 ...No reply yet, nor has it come back from the tag@ list, so perhaps it's delayed. 18:11:51 Vincent reports that he has seen it now. 18:12:38 Vincent: Noah, you were going to update the status in metadataInURI 18:12:48 Noah: I sent a note on 20 Dec 18:12:49 Note sent 20 Dec.: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2006Dec/0088.html 18:13:08 Noah: One reply, but not in the critical path. 18:13:12 ...I think it's ready to go 18:13:51 ...Two things that could be reviewed: preparation for publication could use review 18:13:53 +DOrchard 18:14:33 Noah: I updated the link to one RFC 18:14:34 Question, is http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html the right link? 18:14:58 Norm proposes: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616 18:17:01 tidy --asxml 18:17:36 Norm: That's what I do. 18:17:48 ACTION: Noah to run it through tidy and republish for Vincent to announce. 18:18:54 Vincent: Noah can you give us an update on WS for Enterprise? 18:19:02 s/Enterprise/Enterprise Workshop/ 18:19:29 Noah: It needs to be submitted by 10 Jan, so we'll have one more call before submission but there won't be much time for radical surgery. 18:19:43 Noah: I'm going to get a draft out as quickly as possible, so please review as soon as you can. 18:19:48 Vincent: Sounds reasonable. 18:20:28 Vincent: Is there any particular topic you'd like to draw our attention to? 18:20:48 Noah: I can if you want to spend the time on it... 18:21:22 The TAG very much appreciates the opportunity to participate in this workshop. Although a few TAG members have direct experience building and supporting enterprise-grade networking systems, most of us have far deeper knowledge of the World Wide Web and of the technologies that have been used to build it. Accordingly, our primary interest in attending the workshop is to learn from the many participants who have greater experience in building and deploying enter 18:21:29 We also hope it will be useful to contribute some of the insights we've gained in designing and guiding the Web itself, and to participate in a constructive dialog regarding the tradeoffs to be made in coordinating Web services technologies with core World Wide Web technologies such as URIs and HTTP. 18:21:36 This white paper is intended to set out a few of the issues as we understand them, and to share some ideas about architectural tradeoffs. We do not attempt here to suggest what "the right answers" should be, but rather to offer some ideas that we hope will promote useful discussion. In keeping with the overall style of the workshop, we focus mainly on analyses motivated by use cases, but we start with a brief discussion of the background regarding integration 18:21:38 Noah: Tim had a concern that we make it clear that we're there to listen as much as to say what the right answers are 18:22:13 dorchard has joined #tagmem 18:22:15 Noah: Dan encouraged me to try to keep it short. 18:22:26 ...What I have right now focuses on three related use casese. 18:22:32 s/casese/cases/ 18:22:48 Noah: Is it interesting to have something that's on the web and available through web services. 18:22:53 ...First use case is a printer. 18:23:37 ...Second case is a printer that has a pure SOAP WS interface. 18:24:08 ...Third use case is a printer that supports both at the same URI 18:24:57 Noah: Maybe some discussion of other TAG issues like EPR vs. URI. 18:25:12 ...I'm inclined to leave those out of the paper, but present them if I'm invited to speak. 18:25:19 Vincent: Thanks Noah. Any comments? 18:25:48 Norm: I'll try to read it as soon as possible, but I don't have any comments in advance of the paper. 18:26:17 Topic: Deprecate UTF-7? 18:27:07 Vincent: Should we put this on the agenda and consider it as a new issue? 18:27:09 Ed: Yes 18:27:29 Dave: Yes 18:27:42 I don't feel I have enough code-level experience on this one to have an informed opinion. So, I concur with whatever the rest of the TAG decides is appropriate. 18:28:03 TimBL: It's not UTF-7 that's really the problem, it's the browser sniffing of it. 18:28:25 Vincent: Roy suggests asking the browser vendors to stop supporting UTF-7 18:31:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Dec/0034.html 18:31:28 By he way, Mary Ellen Zurko just confirmed to me that she got the note from Ed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2007Jan/0001.html (Member only) 18:31:34 ""Servers" that do not declare the character encoding of the content they 18:31:34 serve, or that fail to ensure that the content matches the encoding they 18:31:34 do declare, are inherently vulnerable to attacks. All these servers have 18:31:34 Some discussion of the email thread 18:31:35 to do to prevent these UTF-7 based attacks is to declare the encoding in 18:31:35 the HTTP header or using some equivalent mechanism. The "servers" are 18:31:35 broken if they don't, not the browsers. Besides, none of the mainstream 18:31:37 browsers auto-detect UTF-7 in their latest versions, so there is hardly 18:31:39 any issue here." 18:32:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Dec/thread.html#msg34 18:33:16 Paul Cotton also sent email at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Dec/0061.html 18:33:30 Linking to an explanation of the issue at: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2006-10/0296.html 18:33:37 Ed notes that the rating service uses UTF-7 18:34:12 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-PICS-services-961031 18:35:07 Ed: It may still not be a bad thing to deprecate utf-7, but we need to make sure the community gets enough lead time. 18:35:17 TimBL: The problem isn't really with utf-7 anyway. 18:35:44 ...It's just another example of the issues associated with the wrong metadata: bad content type, bad encoding, etc. 18:35:48 it is with incorrect metadata 18:35:53 s/the wrong/incorrect/ 18:36:07 TimBL: Let's open the issue. 18:36:33 Norm: I'm happy to open it. 18:36:35 Noah: I concur. 18:36:51 Vincent: Ok, then we'll open it, but we need to take care with the name and summary. 18:37:05 proposed issue name: explore issues and resolutions around UTF7 encoding 18:38:16 utf7-77 18:38:32 Vincent: utf7-55 18:38:43 s/First use case is a printer/First use case is a printer accessed and controlled through a traditional HTTP...no SOAP or Web Services/ 18:39:11 Ed +1 18:39:13 utf7-55 18:39:33 utf7encoding-55 18:39:37 OK 18:39:59 Vincent: Ok, we'll open a new issue, "utf7Encoding-55" 18:40:10 Vincent: Now we need a sentence or two to clearly state the issue. 18:40:42 proposed issue sentance: explore issues and resolutions around UTF7 encoding 18:41:11 TimBL: We should have a link to Roy's message. 18:41:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Dec/thread.html#msg34 18:41:22 the thread 18:42:16 Security concerns with browsers sniffing unlabelled UTF7 encoding 18:42:26 as raised in 18:42:50 Vincent: What about that? 18:42:54 Norm: Works for me. 18:43:04 Looks fine 18:43:54 Vincent: Open issue as described? 18:43:56 Approved. 18:44:09 ACTION: Vincent to create issue in list and announce it. 18:45:44 Technical discussion postponed until we have a larger attendence. 18:46:20 Vincent: We might also want to discuss [IFLA-L] CERL and ECPA publish report that explains 18:46:20 persistentidentifier schemes 18:46:45 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Dec/0060.html 18:47:56 Noah: Is there a political agenda behind this, do we know? 18:48:03 Ed: To sell copies of the report? 18:48:53 I think it's this: 18:48:56 -> http://www.knaw.nl/ecpa/publ/pdf/2732.pdf 18:50:06 Vincent: It's more than 50 pages so perhaps it's not something we can discuss now. 18:51:12 Norm: It seems like something we need to reply to, but personally I have less and less energy for the names-vs-address fight with each passing year. 18:51:33 TimBL: Perhaps we can resolve to send a short note pointing out at least that they're violating web arch? 18:51:56 Noah: This report takes as a starting point something that we disagree with. 18:53:23 Vincent: There is a section 9.6 which says that the authors don't recommend any specific scheme. 18:54:34 -noah 18:54:39 Vincent: There are many documents that say things that aren't completely right regarding web architecture. It would be a huge task to refute them all. 18:54:49 Ed: I'm not sure I want to give it any more credibility by responding to it. 18:55:02 +[IBMCambridge] 18:55:06 Dave: I'm not a big fan of that argument with respect to web architecture. Communication is one of our mandates. 18:55:12 zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me 18:55:12 +noah; got it 18:55:24 Dave: A simple message that says we disagree with them from the very beginning might be the right thing to do. 18:55:49 Noah: I think it's also important to acknowledge that http: as commonly deployed does exhibit this problem. 18:56:19 ...The question is, do you fix the issue by saying that http is inappropriate or by looking more subtly at the problem. 18:56:40 Ed: I don't think we should respond unless someone is willing to sit down and read the whole thing. 18:56:55 Vincent: I don't know how important this report is. 18:58:27 Norm: Maybe we should leave it for a week and see if there's someone else with a burning desire to persue it. 18:58:32 Vincent: Ok by me. 18:58:49 Topic: Any other business? 18:58:56 Adjourned. 18:59:05 -DOrchard 18:59:09 -Ed_Rice 18:59:11 -Norm 18:59:13 -TimBL 18:59:15 -Vincent 18:59:25 timbl_ has left #tagmem 18:59:28 -noah 18:59:29 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 18:59:30 Attendees were Ed_Rice, Norm, +1.347.661.aaaa, noah, Vincent, TimBL, DOrchard 19:02:57 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 19:03:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:03:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/01/02-tagmem-minutes.html Norm 19:04:58 noah2 has joined #tagmem 20:13:23 timbl_ has joined #tagmem 21:23:27 timbl has joined #tagmem 21:30:50 Zakim has left #tagmem