IRC log of grddl-wg on 2006-12-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:00:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
16:00:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/20-grddl-wg-irc
16:00:32 [DanC]
Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
16:00:32 [Zakim]
working on it, DanC
16:00:33 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-12-06T11:00-0500
16:00:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
16:00:36 [Zakim]
agenda+ Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents
16:00:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
16:00:40 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] [DONE?] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML
16:00:46 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
16:00:47 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML
16:00:48 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
16:00:49 [Zakim]
agenda+ Cross-document Introduction
16:00:50 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
16:00:51 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns]
16:00:52 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
16:00:54 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-base-param]
16:00:56 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
16:00:58 [Zakim]
agenda+ Primer Document
16:01:02 [Zakim]
agendum 8 added
16:01:04 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: General issues
16:01:06 [Zakim]
agendum 9 added
16:01:10 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, DanC
16:01:19 [Zakim]
+DanC
16:01:39 [DanC]
Meeting: GRDDL Weekly
16:01:43 [DanC]
Scribe: briansuda
16:02:15 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC
16:02:18 [briansuda]
Zakim, +[IPcaller] is briansuda
16:02:18 [Zakim]
sorry, briansuda, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:02:29 [briansuda]
Zakim, +[??P0] is briansuda
16:02:29 [Zakim]
sorry, briansuda, I do not recognize a party named '+[??P0]'
16:02:30 [briansuda]
yup
16:02:33 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P0 is briansuda
16:02:33 [Zakim]
+briansuda; got it
16:02:37 [briansuda]
yes
16:03:37 [DanC]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/0063.html
16:03:44 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
16:03:54 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make record world-access
16:04:37 [Zakim]
+??P18
16:05:06 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
16:05:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-12-06T11:00-0500" taken up
16:05:21 [briansuda]
links works for me
16:05:31 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
16:06:02 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see briansuda, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, ??P18
16:06:11 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P18 is HarryH
16:06:11 [Zakim]
+HarryH; got it
16:06:26 [briansuda]
yeah, i'm fie
16:06:54 [DanC]
agenda points to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/13-grddl-wg-minutes.html
16:08:53 [DanC]
regrets: BrianS, danja
16:08:54 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:08:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up
16:09:14 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 1
16:09:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-12-06T11:00-0500" taken up
16:09:41 [HarryH]
RESOLVED to approve http://www.w3.org/2006/12/13-grddl-wg-minutes.html as a true record
16:09:58 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:09:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, HarryH
16:10:03 [HarryH]
Zakim, close this item
16:10:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
16:10:04 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:10:05 [Zakim]
2. Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents
16:10:06 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:10:06 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up
16:12:11 [HarryH]
ACTION: Fabien to post to sawsdl list relevant questions about RDF mapping and relationship to GRDDL [CONTINUES]
16:12:14 [benadida]
benadida has joined #grddl-wg
16:12:26 [Zakim]
+benadida
16:12:44 [chimezie]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/POMROntology
16:13:36 [briansuda]
Chime: xml primer example use-case, lightweight ontology for medical records
16:14:00 [chimezie]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/POMROntology#head-b91a931fb7855e7073e795b75ca71b550ed1e4c3
16:14:14 [HarryH]
This would fulfill Dave Booth's request in our comments list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2006OctDec/0000.html
16:14:27 [briansuda]
Chime: GRDDL transform, HL7 document -> RDF
16:14:41 [Zakim]
+Murray_Maloney
16:16:11 [briansuda]
Dan, how to fit GRDDL transformation into the document without breaking the schema?
16:16:22 [HarryH]
namespace document is a URN, which is a slight problem.
16:16:45 [briansuda]
Chime: schema might be closed.
16:16:58 [HarryH]
Chime: But we could use schema annotations, don't think schema is closed to import infoitems from other namespaces.
16:17:35 [briansuda]
Harry: plain XML would be a nice addition to the primer
16:18:05 [briansuda]
Harry: ian is ok with additions to the primer document
16:18:19 [briansuda]
Dan: check it into the test suite
16:18:29 [HarryH]
ACTION: Chime's add HL7 plain XML health care use-case and check it into test suite.
16:18:54 [HarryH]
Zakim, close this item
16:18:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
16:18:55 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:18:56 [Zakim]
3. [#issue-output-formats] [DONE?] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML
16:18:58 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 3
16:18:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "[#issue-output-formats] [DONE?] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML" taken up
16:19:39 [HarryH]
ACTION: DanC to add N3/turtle mime type to Atom/turtle test case. noting the unregistered status [CONTINUES]
16:19:46 [chimezie]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:19:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see briansuda, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, HarryH, benadida, Murray_Maloney
16:19:52 [HarryH]
ACTION:DanC to write rules about XSLT 1.0 processing [CONTINUES]
16:20:22 [briansuda]
Ben: in RDFa html metadata by providing transforms, microformats -> RDFa
16:20:50 [briansuda]
keeps the RDFa in the DOM, so you can grab individual items
16:21:11 [briansuda]
use GRDDL like mechanism to make RDFA
16:21:28 [briansuda]
can this be done with the current GRDDL spec?
16:21:51 [chimezie]
we could test this with the current test suite impl..
16:22:15 [briansuda]
Ben: output-issue might solve this problem
16:22:40 [briansuda]
Ben: requires clients to request RDFa output of given profile
16:23:24 [HarryH]
http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#issue-output-formats is technically still open.
16:23:26 [briansuda]
Dan: GRDDL transformation pointer, source document => HTML/RDFa
16:23:53 [briansuda]
Ben: author must use specific profile to make a transformation to RDFa
16:24:07 [chimezie]
the agent/client needs some way to know how to parse as RDFa
16:24:36 [briansuda]
Ben: how would the client know what transformation to use? RDF, turtle or HTML?
16:25:19 [briansuda]
Harry, browser would decipher the transformation and look for RDFa results
16:25:41 [briansuda]
murray: GRDDL tells us how to find 1 or more transformations
16:25:50 [briansuda]
agent is RDFa aware and GRDDL aware
16:26:15 [chimezie]
q+
16:26:18 [briansuda]
agent is able to look into class attributes, link element has special @class
16:26:38 [briansuda]
chime: RDFa, does it have a specific mimeType?
16:27:03 [briansuda]
Ben: no special mimeType - schema or DTD instead
16:27:51 [briansuda]
Ben: DTD mostly - murray's direction is a good one
16:28:19 [briansuda]
find the RDFa transformation, can be done with various javascript libs
16:29:09 [briansuda]
murray: to identify a grddl transformation can be in a LINK element
16:29:48 [briansuda]
Dan: hCard page, profile="hcard uri here", this works for GRDDL transform
16:30:50 [briansuda]
Murray, namespace transformation keyword, profile transformation keywork... HTML profile document could have link element with special class name for RDFa URI
16:31:24 [briansuda]
RDFa aware user agant can follow its nose and find the correct LINK/REL uri and do correct transformation
16:31:28 [chimezie]
that's a very specific follow your nose scenario
16:32:12 [briansuda]
Dan: worries about choosing a good class attribute
16:32:48 [DanC]
(I'm worried about squatting on the author's choice of class attribute values)
16:33:17 [briansuda]
Harrry, run all transformation, user agent chooses the right output it wants
16:33:47 [briansuda]
murray, try not to complicate GRDDL by using existing attributes in HTML namespace
16:35:00 [DanC]
(brian, to attribute a comment to somebody, use a colon, not a comma)
16:36:34 [briansuda]
Harry: mimeType for HTML RDFa not part of GRDDL
16:36:57 [briansuda]
Ben: differenciate between transforms and/or type the transforms
16:37:32 [briansuda]
Dan: run the transform and see what you get instead of typing
16:38:08 [briansuda]
Ben: annotate transformation or not?
16:38:50 [HarryH]
Annotate the transformation pre-running it
16:39:11 [briansuda]
murray: leave it up to the agents to discover the annotation
16:39:48 [briansuda]
Dan: GRDDL spec says all are relevant, but if you only want to run certain ones, go ahead
16:40:18 [DanC]
(ben, as fodder for hGRDDL testing, there's an existing hCard test: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist2#hcard1 )
16:40:20 [HarryH]
ACTION: BenA to write a sample hGRDDL transformation
16:41:17 [DanC]
(yes, output formats is closed: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/att-0011/06-grddl-wg-minutes.html__charset_us-ascii )
16:41:40 [DanC]
(though there are some pending actions)
16:42:06 [briansuda]
murray: RDFa, transformation that converts to 'augments HTML RDFa with notations'
16:42:32 [briansuda]
wouldn't you want ALL the RDF to annotate ALL of it back into HTML?
16:43:11 [briansuda]
Ben: this could be done by keeping other GRDDL pointers
16:43:45 [briansuda]
Dan: not all the transformation tell you where an RDF triple belongs back into the HTML
16:44:19 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:44:19 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up
16:44:28 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:44:28 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, HarryH
16:44:37 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 5
16:44:37 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Cross-document Introduction" taken up
16:46:57 [briansuda]
harry: pending edit, to remove the words "scrapping"
16:48:23 [HarryH]
ACTION: HarryH to make sure edit "scraping" edit is.
16:48:36 [HarryH]
Zakim, close this item
16:48:36 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
16:48:38 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:48:39 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
16:48:40 [Zakim]
4. GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML
16:48:41 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up
16:48:47 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 5
16:48:47 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Cross-document Introduction" taken up
16:49:15 [briansuda]
Harry: what do do about this without Ian?
16:50:22 [briansuda]
Dan: spec pretty much remains the same, otherwise the primer doesn't get the introduction
16:50:50 [briansuda]
Murray: happy to withdraw the cross-document intro
16:51:38 [HarryH]
ACTION: Ian to reconsider comments on cross-document introduction [WITHDRAWN]
16:51:51 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 6
16:51:51 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "[#issue-mt-ns]" taken up
16:52:21 [briansuda]
murray: given a doc with a DTD or schema or xinclude....
16:52:53 [DanC]
(the HTML DTD has a default 'rect' attribute)
16:53:01 [briansuda]
xinclude agumnets document if it is realized
16:53:25 [briansuda]
XSLT may or maynot be all of the values if it were xinclude processed
16:53:45 [briansuda]
might return two different RDF graphs given if or if not the includes are included
16:53:55 [briansuda]
people have to deal with it themselves, or
16:54:11 [briansuda]
MUST do things so you get what the author intended
16:54:18 [briansuda]
with XI namespace
16:54:55 [briansuda]
transformation in xi namespace, so that xinclude were incountered - discover it, and add something into result
16:55:32 [HarryH]
I think there's a problem the xi namespace is not usually the root element.
16:55:33 [briansuda]
DanC pointer?
16:55:40 [DanC]
Subject: XInclude or Not, that is the question
16:55:40 [DanC]
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:24:30 -0500 (11:24 CST)
16:56:07 [briansuda]
murray: authors intention to get with xinclude expanded
16:57:32 [briansuda]
xinclude namespace is in the document
16:57:46 [briansuda]
not in the same namespace, follow you nose for the subtree?
16:57:55 [briansuda]
Dan: different GRDDL design
16:58:33 [briansuda]
murray: not xi namespace, but explain
16:59:01 [briansuda]
simple transform which you can include and make the result graph aware that you missed an xinclude
16:59:23 [briansuda]
Dan: if you want you transformation to do xinclude, then make your transformations do xinclude
16:59:46 [briansuda]
harry: not mandate any further xml processing, but instead make recommendations
17:00:17 [briansuda]
murray: if we add a paragraph, about issues and problems
17:00:22 [briansuda]
in the spec
17:00:56 [briansuda]
Chime: we currently recomment xproc
17:01:04 [DanC]
+1 PROPOSAL: The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML on the source document is wanted to be run before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC when XInclude if this is the case.
17:01:12 [HarryH]
The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document is wanted to be run before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC or using (or something like Murray's xinclude transformation) when this is the case.
17:02:18 [DanC]
+1 The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document is wanted to be run before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC or using (or something like Murray's xinclude transformation) when this is the case.
17:03:09 [DanC]
hmm... faithful-infoset
17:03:24 [HarryH]
PROPOSAL: The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC when this is the case.
17:03:40 [briansuda]
harry: what exactly is the mimetype issue now?
17:03:46 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to add issue faithful-infoset (split it out of issue-mt-ns) and close it a la: The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC when this is the case.
17:04:03 [briansuda]
not me
17:04:17 [benadida]
not me, but I'm comfortable abstaining
17:04:20 [DanC]
brian, you'd rather think more? you'd rather abstain?
17:04:24 [briansuda]
abstain
17:05:30 [DanC]
"
17:05:30 [DanC]
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but that rather than us
17:05:30 [DanC]
trying to give a definitive answer on xinclude processing, we could
17:05:30 [DanC]
leave it to the publisher. " -- McBride
17:05:37 [DanC]
Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:16:51 -0000
17:06:50 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: to add issue faithful-infoset (split it out of issue-mt-ns) and close it a la: The GRDDL WG does not mandate XInclude and further XML processing on the source document before the transformation to RDF, and write a caveat in the specification recommending XPROC when this is the case. (benA and BrianS abstaining)
17:07:17 [HarryH]
ACTION: Murry to draft paragraph giving us caveat for faithful infoset issue closure.
17:07:23 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
17:07:23 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up
17:07:34 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 4
17:07:36 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 7
17:07:38 [Zakim]
agendum 4, GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML, closed
17:07:42 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:47 [Zakim]
7. [#issue-base-param]
17:07:48 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "[#issue-base-param]" taken up
17:08:15 [HarryH]
PROPOSAL: Given that a base URI parameter is a parameter whose value is the base URI of the source document, the WG RESOLVES not to define a base URI parameter for transforms.
17:08:32 [briansuda]
Dan: is ok, and results in no edits to spec
17:08:57 [briansuda]
eRDF uses base-construct
17:09:27 [briansuda]
harry: can't change base-parameter
17:09:50 [briansuda]
harry: defining default para
17:10:20 [HarryH]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#baseURI
17:10:37 [Zakim]
-Murray_Maloney
17:11:24 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: Given that a base URI parameter is a parameter whose value is the base URI of the source document, the WG RESOLVES not to define a base URI parameter for transforms.
17:11:44 [DanC]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/0028.html
17:11:52 [HarryH]
ACTION: Harry to check in Bwm's test case: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/0028.html
17:12:37 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 8
17:12:37 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Primer Document" taken up
17:12:39 [Zakim]
-Chimezie_Ogbuji
17:13:04 [HarryH]
BrianS - are you available in 2 hours or so?
17:13:07 [briansuda]
sure
17:13:15 [HarryH]
OK, let's try to finish some of this off then :)
17:13:32 [HarryH]
ACTION: Harry and Brian to rewrite second part of primer to use Brian and Dan's instance data. See message from Brian and message from Harry. [CONTINUES]
17:13:45 [HarryH]
Zakim, open item 9
17:13:45 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "GRDDL Spec: General issues" taken up
17:14:00 [DanC]
(hmm... when to do another release of the GRDDL primer WD?)
17:14:36 [briansuda]
harry: next meeting will be...
17:14:45 [DanC]
Topic: Next Meeting
17:14:53 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to cancel 27 Dec
17:15:09 [DanC]
anybody _want_ to meet on 3 Jan?
17:15:10 [HarryH]
Does anyone want to meet on 3rd?
17:15:18 [briansuda]
not perticularly
17:15:21 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to cancel 3 Jan
17:15:32 [HarryH]
Next meeting: Janurary 10th
17:15:38 [HarryH]
Zakim, pick a scribe
17:15:38 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose benadida
17:15:42 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:15:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see briansuda, DanC, HarryH, benadida
17:16:19 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet next 10 Jan, benadida to scribe
17:16:42 [briansuda]
sure
17:16:48 [DanC]
ADJOURN
17:16:54 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:16:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:16:58 [Zakim]
-benadida
17:16:59 [Zakim]
-HarryH
17:17:15 [DanC]
Chair: HarryH
17:17:18 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:17:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:17:28 [DanC]
Zakim, list attendees
17:17:28 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, briansuda, HarryH, benadida, Murray_Maloney
17:17:33 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:17:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:17:38 [briansuda]
sure
17:17:43 [Zakim]
-DanC
17:17:49 [Zakim]
-briansuda
17:17:51 [Zakim]
SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
17:17:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, briansuda, HarryH, benadida, Murray_Maloney
17:17:55 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:17:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
17:18:38 [DanC]
I'd like you to grab that and clean it up just a bit... get rid of the dups in the TOC
17:18:51 [DanC]
and then mail it to public-grdd-wg@w3.org as an attachment. OK?
17:18:55 [briansuda]
right, and i'll change and ',' to ':'
17:19:09 [briansuda]
not a problem
17:19:18 [DanC]
well, to change , to :, you kinda have to grab the IRC log and run it thru scribe.perl on your machine.
17:19:31 [DanC]
That's an option, but it's sorta above and beyond the call of duty for a meeting of this sorty
17:19:32 [DanC]
sort
17:20:08 [DanC]
I think just cleaning up the TOC suffices... umm... lemme check the action summary...
17:20:15 [benadida]
benadida has left #grddl-wg
17:20:35 [briansuda]
can i remove myself from the regrets as well?
17:20:39 [DanC]
yes
17:20:47 [DanC]
and chop off the diagnostics
17:20:51 [briansuda]
k
17:20:59 [DanC]
action summary looks close enough
17:21:28 [DanC]
ok, enjoy.
17:21:33 [briansuda]
happy holidays
17:21:43 [DanC]
Merry Christmas.
17:21:48 [briansuda]
if you find any issues with the hg stuff, let me know
17:24:57 [DanC]
will do
17:25:09 [DanC]
now to update the GRDDL issues list with all these resolved issues...
18:32:46 [DanC]
ok, the issues list is up-to-date http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#issues 1.180 2006/12/20 18:30:48
18:32:56 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop