15:24:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
15:24:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/11/22-grddl-wg-irc
15:46:56 <danja> danja has joined #grddl-wg
15:47:05 <HarryH> HarryH has joined #grddl-wg
15:51:53 <danja> whoah - skype worked first time!
15:52:03 <HarryH> Excellent.
15:55:39 <danja> I had this morning set aside for grddl coding - then got up to find a hole in the office floor
15:56:24 <danja> I'd have preferred to do the software kind of building...
15:57:25 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #grddl-wg
15:57:35 <HarryH> That's okay - the building I'm has just had the lower level flooded, so an irritated secretary wants me not to be on the phone right now :)
15:57:45 <HarryH> Luckily I'm on the second floor!
15:57:49 <danja> ah
15:58:01 <danja> time of year for such things mayber
15:58:37 <HarryH> Does anyone want to scribe?
15:58:42 <HarryH> IanD sent regrets.
15:59:29 <HarryH> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:29 <Zakim> sorry, HarryH, I don't know what conference this is
15:59:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, HarryH, danja, RRSAgent, Zakim, fgandon, DanC
15:59:34 <HarryH> Zakim this is grddl
15:59:43 <HarryH> Zakim, this is GRDDL
15:59:50 <Zakim> ok, HarryH; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
16:00:00 <Zakim> +DanC
16:00:07 <HarryH> zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
16:00:07 <Zakim> working on it, HarryH
16:00:10 <Zakim> agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-11-22T11:00-0500
16:00:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
16:00:14 <Zakim> agenda+ Cross-document Introduction
16:00:16 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
16:00:18 <Zakim> agenda+ Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents
16:00:20 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
16:00:22 <Zakim> agenda+ GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML
16:00:26 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
16:00:32 <Zakim> agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML
16:00:34 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
16:00:36 <Zakim> agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns]
16:00:38 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
16:00:40 <Zakim> agenda+ [#issue-base-param]
16:00:42 <Zakim> agendum 7 added
16:00:44 <Zakim> agenda+ Primer Document
16:00:46 <Zakim> agendum 8 added
16:00:48 <Zakim> agenda+ GRDDL Spec: General issues
16:00:50 <Zakim> agendum 9 added
16:00:52 <Zakim> agenda+ schedule
16:00:54 <Zakim> agendum 10 added
16:00:56 <Zakim> done reading agenda, HarryH
16:01:15 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
16:01:16 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:01:30 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], ??P2, DanC, [Sophia], Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:01:32 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
16:01:32 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-11-22T11:00-0500" taken up
16:01:45 <DanC> Zakim, [IPcaller] is DannyA
16:01:45 <Zakim> +DannyA; got it
16:01:47 <HarryH> Zakim, ??P2 is really HarryH
16:01:47 <Zakim> +HarryH; got it
16:02:01 <DanC> Zakim, [Sophia] is FabienG
16:02:01 <Zakim> +FabienG; got it
16:02:05 <DanC> Regrets: IanD
16:02:17 <HarryH> Regrets: BenA, BrianS
16:02:35 <HarryH> We need a scribe!
16:02:41 <bwm> bwm has joined #grddl-wg
16:02:45 <DanC> Regrets: IanD, BenA, BrianS
16:02:53 <HarryH> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:02:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HarryH
16:02:57 <HarryH> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:02:57 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose FabienG
16:03:12 <HarryH> Chair: HarryH
16:03:18 <HarryH> Scribe: fgandon
16:03:41 <DanC> ACTION: Harry to send info about WWW2007 GRDDL tutorial [DONE]
16:03:42 <Zakim> +??P25
16:03:53 <bwm> zakim, ??p25 is bwm
16:03:54 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Nov/att-0066/grddl-wg-minutes-2006-11-15.html minutes 15 Nov
16:03:58 <Zakim> +bwm; got it
16:03:58 <fgandon> Approved minutes of the last meeting.
16:04:03 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see DannyA, HarryH, DanC, FabienG, Chimezie_Ogbuji, bwm
16:04:15 <HarryH> RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Nov/att-0066/grddl-wg-minutes-2006-11-15.html is a true record of Nov 15th meeeting
16:04:55 <fgandon> About the tutorial
16:05:00 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
16:05:00 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Cross-document Introduction" taken up
16:05:36 <DanC> agenda + applications: RDFa, hCard, ...
16:05:43 <fgandon> HH: currently talking with ben about join tutorial with RDFa
16:05:55 <HarryH> Waiting for initiative from BenA
16:06:55 <fgandon> Brian: is ok with comments on cross-intro
16:07:03 <fgandon> fabien : not read yet
16:08:16 <fgandon> DanC: I would like wording to be suggested.
16:08:51 <HarryH> ACTION: Danja to suggest wording changes in light of recent comment cross-document introduction
16:08:58 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
16:08:58 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Test cases for GRDDL with XML documents" taken up
16:09:55 <fgandon> Danny: didn't have time yet to work on it but should be done by christmas
16:10:07 <HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#xmlWithGrddlAttribute
16:11:42 <DanC> test materials are http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xmlWithGrddlAttribute.xml v 1.1 2006/11/01 07:44:09 
16:11:51 <fgandon> Brian: any implementation?
16:12:17 <DanC> ... and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/xmlWithGrddlAttribute-output.rdf 
16:12:23 <fgandon> DanC : yes 3 of them. every implementation I know have run this test case.
16:13:42 <fgandon> DanC: this is not a namespace test case.
16:14:33 <fgandon> Chimezie: in a lot of cases you spend time dereferencing namespaces you don't really need.
16:15:41 <fgandon> Harry: consensus on this test case approved
16:15:57 <HarryH> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#xmlWithGrddlAttribute is a correct and proper test case.
16:15:58 <fgandon> RESOLVE: test case approved
16:16:18 <HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#projectsSpreadsheet
16:17:41 <fgandon> DanC: test on RDF from spreadsheet tools
16:18:08 <fgandon> Chimezie: I haven't run this one.
16:18:26 <fgandon> DanC: I ran all o the 5 test cases
16:18:57 <fgandon> DanC: we should wait for other testers to run this test
16:20:08 <DanC> s/should/could/
16:20:14 <fgandon> ACTION: Chimezie to verify http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#projectsSpreadsheet
16:20:18 <HarryH> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/testlist1#projectsSpreadsheet is a correct and proper test case .
16:20:49 <DanC> ACTION DanC: update test manifest to show these 2 tests approved
16:22:05 <HarryH> danja: "information resource" - kinda weird. Stephen King didn't write the page.
16:22:35 <danja> (not danja - bwm?)
16:22:55 <DanC> (the page is a representation of something stephen king wrote, IMO)
16:23:23 <fgandon> ACTION: Brian to have a closer look at the Stephen King example in the spec
16:23:42 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
16:23:42 <Zakim> agendum 4. "GRDDL and (non-XML) HTML" taken up
16:24:25 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2006OctDec/0028.html
16:25:42 <fgandon> Harry: Normans Gray's issue "error behaviour: The GRDDL spec doesn't say what a GRDDL processor should do if fed something which isn't one of these media types [text/xml, application/xml, and */*+xml], or which purports to be but isn't, or isn't well-formed."
16:27:18 <fgandon> DanC: the spec is written in terms of XPath so (...)
16:28:38 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Jul/0013 grddl with pre-XHTML HTML input 26 Jul 2006
16:29:44 <fgandon> Danja: there are many pages out there using microformats so how should we handle them? use tidy?
16:30:30 <HarryH> fgandon: the question is non-wellformed XML but could still be used in a GRDDL transformation?
16:31:29 <HarryH> fgandon: tagsoup parser and tidy being used in our wiki project...but sometimes cleaning up HTML can destroy the metadata.
16:31:39 <danja> (I agree with the notion that HTML DOM -> GRDDL could work equivalent to XSLT, but also see Tidy as being problematic, no single algorithm) 
16:32:30 <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
16:32:34 <bwm> (me wonders what effect brackets round text has)
16:32:56 <danja> (stage whisper?)
16:32:57 <fgandon> HarryH: we only lincence the use of GRDDL for XHTML and other use are allowed at your own risk.
16:33:03 <DanC> (comments like this are on the record, but sorta 2nd-class, since they weren't vocalized.)
16:33:30 <fgandon> ACTION: Fabien to add a sentence about that in the Use Case document.
16:33:47 <DanC> s/that/non-XML HTML/
16:34:23 <fgandon> ACTION 6 = Fabien to add a sentence about non XML sources in the Use Case document.
16:35:31 <bwm> ( i'm uncomfortable with "allowed at own risk" - GRDDL is defined on welformed XML and undefined otherwise.  If someone transforms malformed xml into well formed xml and then runs a transform - that is up to them.)
16:36:38 <fgandon> ACTION: Harry to respond to Norman Gray
16:36:56 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
16:36:56 <Zakim> agendum 5. "[#issue-output-formats] whether GRDDL transformations may produce RDF in a format other than RDF/XML" taken up
16:38:33 <fgandon> Chimezie: it is not clear if you can access the right mime type within a stylesheet.
16:39:37 <fgandon> Harry: can we use the Atom test case
16:40:03 <chimezie> <xsl:output
16:40:14 <chimezie> method = "xml" | "html" | "text" | qname-but-not-ncname
16:40:23 <chimezie> media-type = string />
16:41:18 <fgandon> DanC: it is the job of the transformation to specify the mime type of its output.
16:41:22 <danja> (Henry Story has an Atom to N3 XSLT 2.0)
16:41:37 <DanC> no, it's the job of the transformation to specify an RDF graph, by whatever means.
16:42:24 <chimezie> We would be limited to resolving mime-types that are registered (RDF/XML is the only one)?
16:44:13 <danja> (me chuckles at facetious test cases) 
16:44:19 <fgandon> DanC: the mime type we use should be registered mime types
16:44:48 <fgandon> DanC: we could register a personnal mime type for N3
16:45:05 <fgandon> Chimezie: or use plain text mime type
16:46:22 <HarryH> DanC: Or just leave mime type unspecified and output just plain N3 in text.
16:46:57 <DanC> (hmm... should the test materials have the N3 output, or the RDF/XML, or both? hmm.)
16:50:56 <DanC> ACTION DanJa: provide XSLT transformation from Atom to N3, and one case where it works
16:51:20 <DanC> WITHDRAWN: ACTION: chimezie to develop test case to demonstrate both sides of the issue with #issue-output-formats
16:51:45 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
16:51:45 <Zakim> agendum 6. "[#issue-mt-ns]" taken up
16:52:34 <DanC> right; the 2 pending tests I have noted are: "no, xinclude doesn't come for free in xslt", "yes, you can use XProc to say to do xinclude and XSLT"
16:53:00 <fgandon> Chimezie: how to we deal with xinclude ?
16:54:07 <chimezie> what about when xinclude *does* come for free?
16:54:29 <fgandon> DanC: when you point to a transformation it determines a relation between an infoset and an RDF Graph.
16:54:49 <fgandon> DanC: when there is an XInclude it is ignored.
16:55:27 <fgandon> DanC: the XSLT does specify is we do XInclude first or not.
16:56:08 <danja> (brb)
16:56:15 <fgandon> s/does specify is/does not specify if/
16:57:04 <fgandon> Murray: there is a policy question: if I am talking about the XML doc are we talking about the brakets or the infoset.
16:57:27 <fgandon> DanC: it is not about the angle brackets
16:59:41 <fgandon> ACTION: Chimezie to make an example about XInclude
17:00:33 <fgandon> ACTION: Murray to send a pointer to the XProc example
17:01:42 <fgandon> Murray: is the content you have after you resolve the XInclude is part of the truth of the doc?
17:01:50 <fgandon> DanC : yes
17:02:31 <DanC> (I didn't answer Murray's question)
17:03:06 <fgandon> Murray: replace the XInclude by a triple stating there was an XInclude that wasn't resolved.
17:03:19 <danja> (back)
17:03:47 <fgandon> Chimezie: every transform would have to be aware of that.
17:04:18 <HarryH> WITHDRAWN: ACTION: ACTION: Murray, DanC, chimezie formulate source examples (with xincludes) for GRDDL transform.
17:04:38 <fgandon> ACTION- 9
17:04:39 <chimezie> the suggestion seems to be to add an additional test for an XSLT that will extract RDF which uses a term (such as rdfs:seeAlso) to link the source document with the XIncluded url
17:04:49 <fgandon> ACTION- 10
17:05:08 <chimezie> .. so the inclusion can be done within the RDF 'realm'
17:06:31 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#grddl-xml
17:10:06 <bwm> back - I had to leave to take an urgent call
17:12:15 <fgandon> Chimezie: nothing in the XSLT specs mandates how the parsing should be done.
17:12:43 <fgandon> HarryH: how do we deal with layer processing in general?
17:13:35 <danja> (btw, possible useful ref for wording of "Normative Statement", XPath bit - http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#section-Conditional-Processing ) 
17:13:56 <fgandon> HarryH: if we have two different answers from two different implementations we should show both and underline the problem.
17:15:08 <fgandon> DanC: I don't think the XPath doc should have processed the XInclude
17:15:19 <fgandon> Chimezie: this is an open issue.
17:16:06 <chimezie> <root xi:href="someDoc.xml"/>    => <> rdfs:seeAlso <someDoc.xml>
17:16:15 <DanC> <letter><sec />...
17:16:36 <DanC> <letter><sec /><sec /><xinclude .../> </letter>
17:16:54 <fgandon> Murray: Murray gives an example of a letter with three sections, the third one is an XInclude
17:17:11 <DanC> <letter grdd:transformation="grokletter.xsl"><sec /><sec /><xinclude .../> </letter>
17:17:14 <chimezie> though rdfs:seeAlso isn't expressive enough to capture what xinlclude is doing
17:17:51 <fgandon> Murray: in that document there is a GRDDL transform "grokletter" that knows how to handle this letter.
17:17:54 <DanC> MM: grokletter.xsl has a pattern to match <xinclude> ...
17:18:30 <chimezie> so we have 3 test cases: 1) stand alone XInclude 2) XInclude mandated by an XML pipeline description 3) a transformation that 'describes' the inclusion using RDF terms
17:19:19 <chimezie> these 3 will be enough to talk through this issue
17:19:32 <fgandon> DanC: so the input still includes the XInclude.
17:20:04 <fgandon> Murray: yes so if the XInclude is in the letter it will be processed by the transform
17:20:28 <fgandon> Murray: if the XInclude has been processed before then your pattern won't fire.
17:20:34 <chimezie> i agree (with bwm)
17:20:58 <bwm> for the log I said thinks the transform is the wrong place to deal with it - the publisher should get to choose whether to use an xinclude or not
17:21:26 <fgandon> Murray: grokletter recognizes the presence of an XIclude and handles it.
17:22:50 <chimezie> we can't resolve this without a policy decision
17:22:56 <bwm> - the transform should not depend on the implementation
17:24:03 <fgandon> Brian: the result should be independent of the implementation.
17:24:31 <fgandon> DanC: I could see both results being right.
17:25:35 <fgandon> Chimezie: the policy decision must be resloved before we resolve this.
17:27:15 <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
17:27:33 <HarryH> ACTION: Murray to write up the pros and cons http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#issue-mt-ns
17:28:14 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
17:28:14 <Zakim> agendum 7. "[#issue-base-param]" taken up
17:28:16 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
17:28:34 <HarryH> Scribe: Danja
17:28:37 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
17:28:37 <Zakim> agendum 7 was just opened, HarryH
17:28:45 <HarryH> Zakim, close item
17:28:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', HarryH
17:29:26 <HarryH> Zakim, close this item
17:29:26 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
17:29:27 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:27 <fgandon> HarryH: Ian and I achieved some things for the primer but still working on SPARQL
17:29:29 <Zakim> 8. Primer Document
17:29:31 <Zakim> -bwm
17:29:35 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
17:29:35 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Primer Document" taken up
17:29:40 <HarryH> Zakim, close this item
17:29:40 <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
17:29:41 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:42 <Zakim> 9. GRDDL Spec: General issues
17:29:42 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
17:29:42 <Zakim> agendum 9. "GRDDL Spec: General issues" taken up
17:29:46 <HarryH> Zakim, close this item
17:29:46 <Zakim> agendum 9 closed
17:29:48 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:49 <Zakim> 10. schedule
17:29:59 <Zakim> -DannyA
17:31:18 <fgandon> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:32:08 <fgandon> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:32:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/22-grddl-wg-minutes.html fgandon
17:32:57 <Zakim> -FabienG
17:36:08 <danja> danja has joined #grddl-wg
17:51:44 <HarryH> HarryH has joined #grddl-wg
18:00:54 <Zakim> -DanC
18:00:59 <Zakim> -HarryH
18:01:01 <Zakim> SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
18:01:02 <Zakim> Attendees were DanC, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DannyA, HarryH, FabienG, bwm, Murray_Maloney
18:03:45 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
18:03:50 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:03:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/22-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
18:05:27 <DanC> Meeting: GRDDL Weekly
18:06:06 <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Nov/0083.html
18:06:27 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:06:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/11/22-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC
18:41:09 <danja> danja has joined #grddl-wg
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19:51:06 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: GRDDL WG http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/
20:43:13 <danja> danja has joined #grddl-wg
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