IRC log of tagmem on 2006-11-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:59:04 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:59:20 [ht]
zakim, this will be tag
17:59:21 [Zakim]
ok, ht; I see TAG_Weekly()12:30PM scheduled to start 29 minutes ago
17:59:23 [DanC]
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18:00:23 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
18:00:30 [Zakim]
18:01:16 [Vincent]
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18:01:25 [dorchard]
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18:01:25 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
18:01:25 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
18:01:36 [Zakim]
18:01:53 [Zakim]
18:02:13 [Zakim]
18:02:24 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
18:02:25 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
18:02:27 [Zakim]
18:02:29 [Zakim]
18:02:52 [Vincent]
Zakim, who is here?
18:02:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see noah, Raman, Dave_Orchard, Vincent, DanC, Ht
18:02:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dorchard, Vincent, DanC, RRSAgent, Zakim, noah, Norm, ht
18:03:04 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: TAG weekly 14 Nov
18:03:33 [Zakim]
18:03:35 [DanC]
agenda + Convene
18:03:42 [DanC]
agenda + Issue metadataInURI-31
18:03:50 [DanC]
agenda + Issue namespaceDocument-8
18:03:54 [Vincent]
18:04:31 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: TAG weekly 14 Nov
18:04:44 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
18:04:44 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC]
18:04:48 [DanC]
Scribe: DanC
18:04:52 [DanC]
Chair: VQ
18:04:55 [Zakim]
18:05:01 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to met 21 Nov
18:05:07 [DanC]
NM: regrets 21 Nov
18:05:16 [Ed]
Ed has joined #tagmem
18:05:17 [DanC]
HT: regrets 21 Nov. backplane meeting
18:05:32 [Zakim]
18:05:35 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to meet 21 Nov, Ed to scribe
18:05:57 [timbl]
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18:06:04 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to accept as a true record
18:06:45 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to accept as a true record, after making the ammendment Noah requested
18:06:47 [timbl]
ok by me
18:06:53 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to accept as a true record, after making the ammendment Noah requested
18:07:17 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet 21 Nov, Ed to scribe
18:07:39 [DanC]
agenda + Issue passwordsInTheClear-52
18:08:17 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:08:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Issue metadataInURI-31" taken up [from DanC]
18:09:14 [DanC]
VQ: so we have a draft of 7 Nov, and action on DanC and Ed to review
18:09:32 [DanC]
NM: section [n] was rewritten
18:09:50 [DanC]
VQ: I note discussion of dates in W3C URIs
18:10:26 [DanC]
NM: I saw review comments from Ed...
18:11:34 [DanC]
... about strengthening the story from save-as to running it. [?]
18:12:45 [DanC]
[odd... I see 2 URIs. ./malicious.exe and ./moviestar.jpg ]
18:13:22 [DanC]
-> The use of Metadata in URIs DRAFT TAG Finding 07 November 2006
18:15:04 [DanC]
DC: I see 2 URIs... ./malicious.exe and ./moviestar.jpg
18:15:10 [DanC]
NM: that's the 2nd example; look at the 1st
18:15:16 [DanC]
DC: what's the URI in the 1st example?
18:15:25 [DanC]
NM: there isn't a specific URI in the 1st example
18:15:42 [DanC]
DC: then it's too abstract already for somebody, like me, who isn't reading all that carefully
18:15:43 [Vincent]
18:15:51 [dorchard]
this is section 2.8?
18:17:00 [DanC]
(minutes Nov 7 are dated 2006/11/14 18:09:46 )
18:17:29 [timbl]
... <img src="./moviestar.exe"/>
18:17:40 [timbl]
... <img src="./moviestar.exe"/> served as image/jpeg
18:20:24 [DanC]
NM: so I see 2 ways to mitigate the risk:
18:20:40 [DanC]
... (1) what safari does, use the mime type to make a filename of moviestar.exe.jpeg
18:20:55 [DanC]
... (2) warn that saving as .exe won't preserve the mime type
18:26:53 [DanC]
Ed: just recently I saw a link to an RSS feed that came up as text.
18:26:58 [DanC]
TimBL: what was the media type?
18:26:59 [DanC]
Ed: text
18:27:40 [DanC]
TimBL: then the browser was doing it right; if that's not what the author meant, he should have used a different media type; see webarch and/or "authoritative metadata" finding
18:28:31 [timbl]
1. The URI ends in .exe
18:28:41 [timbl]
2. The contrn typ eis image/jpeg
18:28:47 [timbl]
3. So the image works ina browser
18:28:52 [timbl]
4. the server saves it
18:29:00 [DanC]
TV: so I see (1) and (2); it's better to advise one over the other, no?
18:29:09 [timbl]
4. The users saves it with "save image to desktop"
18:29:20 [DanC]
q+ to answer TV's question: (1) is better
18:29:35 [timbl]
5. the user lcicks on it in hte desktop and the thinbg runs as a file
18:30:23 [Norm]
18:30:26 [Norm]
18:30:30 [Norm]
18:30:59 [DanC]
NM: so is the GPN OK?
18:32:43 [DanC]
DC: it's too complicated; just say "when saving to filesystems that use extensions to represent media types, user agents must choose an extension that is constistent with the media type from the representation"
18:33:30 [DanC]
Ed: is that a rfc2119:MUST ?
18:33:31 [DanC]
DanC: yes
18:33:47 [DanC]
TimBL: most operating systems let you rename it
18:34:00 [DanC]
... if you accept that your warrantee is void
18:34:04 [DanC]
DanC: well, that's separate
18:35:12 [DanC]
. ACTION NM: rework 1st example to be more explicit as per Tim's suggestion above, and update GPN per Dan's suggestion
18:35:29 [DanC]
(did he say keep the 2nd example? I haven't looked at it.)
18:36:06 [DanC]
NM: I have gotten comments on other parts of the document...
18:36:23 [DanC]
... ok to change "create" to "assign"?
18:36:30 [DanC]
TBL: where is that comment?
18:37:28 [DanC]
NM: Stuart has advised against "authority" all over the document; I think he's accepted that different editors would say it differently
18:38:54 [noah]
Note from Ed Davies:
18:38:55 [noah]
18:39:09 [DanC]
NM: Ed Davies 8 Nov wrote about a UK court case
18:39:31 [DanC]
... which we have previously discussed
18:41:30 [DanC]
DanC: I think we treated this in the deep linking finding
18:41:38 [DanC]
HT: no, this is a different case
18:42:02 [DanC]
... we don't have very good sources about this case; we're still awaiting the official record
18:43:57 [DanC]
q+ to ask if it wasn't the deep linking finding, what did happen to this court case when we last discussed it?
18:46:14 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:46:14 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to answer TV's question: (1) is better and to ask if it wasn't the deep linking finding, what did happen to this court case when we last discussed it?
18:47:10 [DanC]
ACTION HT: seek a copy of the official court record of the UK case on ../../ etc.
18:47:36 [DanC]
HT: I intended to get a copy before, so yes, let's track it as an action now
18:49:24 [DanC]
TimBL: I don't see this metadata in URI finding saying anything terribly relevant to the UK case
18:51:30 [DanC]
DONE: Review security section on risks of serving executables as .jpeg to metadataInURI draft.
18:51:46 [DanC]
ACTION Ed: Review security section on risks of serving executables as .jpeg to metadataInURI draft. [DONE]
18:52:04 [DanC]
"Face-to-face meeting, 11-13 Dec. 2006, Cambridge, MA, USA, hosted by MIT" --
18:52:14 [DanC]
TV: I'm at risk for the Dec ftf
18:52:21 [Norm]
My current plan is to attend 12, 13 in person and on 11 by phone, if possible
18:52:46 [DanC]
NM: I don't see much opportunity to make progress until ftf prep; ETA 4 Dec
18:53:09 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: accepted on 4 Oct 2006: Review security section on risks of serving executables as .jpeg to metadataInURI draft. [CONTINUES]
18:54:05 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:54:05 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Issue namespaceDocument-8" taken up [from DanC]
18:55:08 [ht] illustrates the case Noah describes in
18:55:09 [DanC]
WITHDRAWN: NW, accepted on 12 Jul 2005: follow up on Noah's message on ns name. Reconfirmed on 10 Jan 2006.
18:55:43 [DanC]
ACTION NW: propose to Jonathan Borden that he changes to using a file of Natures. [CONTINUES]
18:55:43 [ht]
Firefox's treatment is actually sub-optimal
18:55:57 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:55:58 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask a fairly meaty question about GRDDL and namespaces and media types that I sent to www-tag
18:56:06 [DanC]
18:58:05 [noah]
DC: Shows a document containing RDF but served application/xml
18:58:25 [noah]
DC: The RDF gives a privacy policy
18:58:36 [noah]
DC: Has the author issued a privacy policy, or just said "look at these tags"?
18:59:35 [noah]
DC: I think I like the former, in part because there's a lot of stuff already deployed that way.
18:59:43 [timbl]
I vote (1)
19:00:20 [noah]
DC: Suggested in the email:
19:00:20 [noah]
An XML document labeled as text/xml or application/xml might contain
19:00:20 [noah]
namespace declarations, stylesheet-linking processing instructions
19:00:20 [noah]
(PIs), schema information, or other declarations that might be used
19:00:20 [noah]
to suggest how the document is to be processed.
19:00:32 [noah]
For example, a
19:00:32 [noah]
document might have the XHTML namespace and a reference to a CSS
19:00:32 [noah]
stylesheet. Such a document might be handled by applications that
19:00:32 [noah]
would use this information to dispatch the document for appropriate
19:00:32 [noah]
19:00:55 [noah]
19:02:13 [Vincent]
ack noah
19:04:33 [DanC]
q+ to bring up another case,
19:07:14 [Vincent]
ack DanC
19:07:14 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to bring up another case,
19:08:26 [DanC]
looking at
19:09:24 [DanC]
Content-Type: application/xml; qs=0.9
19:09:37 [ht]
Windows has the following information about this MIME type. This page will help you find software needed to open your file.
19:09:37 [ht]
MIME Type: application/rdf xml
19:09:47 [timbl]
Content-Location: testlist3.rdf
19:09:47 [timbl]
Vary: negotiate,accept
19:10:29 [noah]
NW: What's your question?
19:10:37 [noah]
DC: How many triples are here?
19:10:46 [noah]
DC: RDF parser is unhappy with this.
19:11:04 [noah]
TBL: If the parser supported XML functions would it be unhappy?
19:11:11 [noah]
DC: What does that mean?
19:11:28 [noah]
TBL: When you get to a subtree you don't recognize, you look up namespace to get specs.
19:11:39 [noah]
NW: Tim, you'd like it to work that way, but there's no spec for that.
19:11:49 [timbl]
<t:Test r:about="#loop">
19:11:56 [Norm]
We're looking at this:
19:12:02 [timbl]
19:12:33 [noah]
TBL: I did a curl -i on it and it said it was RDF.
19:12:35 [noah]
19:12:43 [noah]
DC: There are two tests in there.
19:13:48 [noah]
DC: this won't parse due to last dc:description.
19:14:09 [noah]
DC: if you knew to run XSLT first, you'd "win", but there don't seem to be enough keys to make that happen
19:14:15 [timbl]
19:14:18 [noah]
NW: insteresting question which processing should happen first.
19:14:53 [noah]
DC: It's a mixin?
19:14:58 [noah]
HT: It is and it isn't.
19:15:22 [Norm]
19:15:28 [Norm]
19:15:28 [noah]
HT: That use of XML breaks compositionality. It's in that sense outside the rules, and the fact that it causes problems is not surprising.
19:15:49 [noah]
HT: In this case, the function of the whole is not the sum of the meaning of the parts. Not context free in the usual way.
19:15:51 [DanC]
HT, please stop; you have already lost tim
19:16:08 [noah]
HT: To understand the meaning of the document by working bottom up.
19:16:11 [noah]
TBL: Bottom up.
19:16:18 [noah]
DC: If it's compositional, it works either way.
19:16:31 [DanC]
(he said, glibly, before wondering if he was right)
19:16:34 [Vincent]
ack timbl
19:16:51 [noah]
(Noah thinks that in general top down provides the context for the inner parts, as in <dontTrust><x>...</x></dontTrust>
19:17:32 [Norm]
19:17:48 [noah]
TBL: If it were anything other than RDF, I would propose that when the RDF parser gets down to the dc:description,it would look up the namespace, e.g. to embed an encrypted piece. Works "fine" for other XML dialects.
19:18:01 [Norm]
I was going to say that xsl:version wasn't designed as a mixin; it was designed to tell the XSLT processor what to do, not to imply that you could or should send it to an XSLT processor. But I'm not sure that distinction is relevant on further consideration.
19:18:04 [DanC]
(wow... tim is blowing my mind, taking the side of "XSLT is working here; RDF is not doing the clean thing.")
19:18:08 [noah]
TBL: Problem is that RDF claims to tell you the semantics of anything you put in there. There's no extensibility in that sense.
19:18:50 [noah]
HT: Here's an example where it's different.
19:19:06 [noah]
HT: XSTL stylesheets themselves break compositionality, and we've known that for years.
19:19:36 [noah]
HT: You write things like <P> knowing that the contents are not the contents of a paragraph. They are result elements. XSLT is a meta lanuage that has implicit quoting all over the place.
19:19:49 [noah]
TBL: Nothing wrong with that, because you start from the top.
19:20:18 [noah]
(Noah notes that what Tim is saying is precisely why Noah said above that top down is the only right way to look at it.)
19:20:32 [DanC]
("my functional xml paper" ... pointer, ht?)
19:20:36 [noah]
TVR: In XSLT, everything but the XSLT namespace is implicitly quoted.
19:20:57 [DanC]
(I find Functional XML: A preliminary sketch HT )
19:21:11 [noah]
HT: But there are lots of XSLT elements that can contain either quoted or non-quoted things. Not clear it's entirely equivalent to backquoting.
19:21:45 [noah]
NW: There are <xsl:element>, <xsl:attribute> and you could use them everywhere. Arguably that's what <p>
19:22:14 [noah]
DC: So I'm hearing first case leaves things looking reasonably clean as far as sniffing for RDF, but the 2nd case still seems to have dragons lurking.
19:22:29 [ht]
[FYI, both Protege 3.1 and SWOOP 2.3 throw exceptions when given Dan's second URI. . .
19:22:40 [noah]
DC: If I put a "parse type"(? scribe's not sure about this) we'd incorrectly blow past the XSL.
19:22:59 [DanC]
(well, we'd blow past; whether correct or not is the issue.)
19:23:02 [Norm]
If we put "parseType='XMLLiteral'" is what Dan meant
19:23:10 [noah]
19:23:38 [noah]
(Noah didn't scribe what Tim said, sorry. Couldn't quite hear.)
19:23:43 [noah]
HT: Xinclude is another example.
19:24:16 [timbl]
19:24:22 [DanC]
(no smiley required, Norm; in the GRDDL WG, we've got an open action to make a test case of using an XML Pipeline in place of an XSLT transformation.)
19:24:51 [Vincent]
ack TimBL
19:25:52 [DanC]
(it's becoming reasonably clear that people do consider that this xmlFunctions-34 does cover this discussion, so I don't need nsMediaType-3 re-opened)
19:27:48 [DanC]
ACTION HT: track progress of #int bug 1974 in the XML Schema namespace document in the XML Schema WG. [CONTINUES]
19:28:07 [DanC]
. TBL, accepted on 5 Oct 2006: with Norm, draft semantic web architecture stories and such.
19:28:26 [DanC]
ACTION NDW: draft semantic web architecture stories and such
19:28:32 [DanC]
NDW: I hope to have something for the ftf, but it's risky
19:28:41 [DanC]
(new version of which? I have fallen behind)
19:29:15 [DanC]
(which finding, NDW?)
19:29:34 [DanC]
19:29:35 [DanC]
19:30:06 [DanC]
VQ: looks like we'll postpone passwordsInTheClear-52 to next time
19:30:13 [timbl]
passwords in the clear ok where?
19:30:19 [DanC]
e.g. on local networks
19:30:50 [DanC]
it's hard to get the scope of passwordsInTheClear clear while keeping it front-side-of-one-page
19:30:52 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
19:30:52 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Issue passwordsInTheClear-52" taken up [from DanC]
19:31:03 [DanC]
Topic: Dec ftf agenda
19:31:07 [DanC]
19:31:09 [DanC]
that's for next week
19:31:13 [Zakim]
19:31:17 [Zakim]
19:31:19 [Zakim]
19:31:20 [Zakim]
19:31:20 [Zakim]
19:31:22 [Zakim]
19:31:24 [Zakim]
19:31:24 [Zakim]
19:31:27 [Zakim]
19:31:29 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
19:31:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were noah, Raman, Dave_Orchard, Vincent, DanC, Ht, Norm, Ed_Rice, TimBL
21:12:34 [Norm]
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