14:52:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:52:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-irc
14:52:19 <RalphS> Meeting: SWD WG
14:52:22 <RalphS> Chair: Tom
14:52:28 <RalphS> zakim, who's on the call?
14:52:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P21
14:52:43 <RalphS> rrsagent, ??p21 is probably Tom
14:52:43 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand '??p21 is probably Tom', RalphS.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:52:48 <RalphS> zakim, ??p21 is probably Tom
14:52:48 <Zakim> +Tom?; got it
14:52:53 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
14:53:21 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-10-17 http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-swd-minutes.html
14:54:32 <Antoine> Antoine has joined #swd
14:55:40 <seanb> seanb has joined #swd
14:58:28 <TomB> Agenda for today: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Oct/0047.html
14:59:03 <TomB> zakim, who is here?
14:59:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tom?
14:59:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see seanb, Antoine, RRSAgent, TomB, Zakim, RalphS
14:59:24 <Zakim> +[VrijeUni]
14:59:25 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Oct/0047.html
14:59:42 <Zakim> +??P39
14:59:50 <Antoine> zakim, VrijeUni is Antoine
15:00:00 <Zakim> +Antoine; got it
15:00:13 <Elisa> Elisa has joined #swd
15:01:12 <Zakim> + +44.120.682.aaaa
15:01:30 <benadida> benadida has joined #SWD
15:01:34 <RalphS> zakim, Ben_Adida is with Ralph
15:01:47 <benadida> zakim, I am Ben_Adida
15:02:02 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
15:02:13 <RalphS> zakim, aaaa is Bernard
15:02:18 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:02:20 <RalphS> zakim, Ben_Adida is with Ralph
15:02:34 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida; got it
15:02:40 <Zakim> sorry, benadida, I do not see a party named 'Ben_Adida'
15:03:32 <Zakim> +Bernard; got it
15:03:40 <Zakim> Ben_Adida was already listed in Ralph, RalphS
15:03:56 <RalphS> wow; significant Zakim-bot lag
15:04:29 <RalphS> Regrets: Diego, Fabien
15:05:10 <RalphS> Regrets+ Alistair, Guus
15:05:16 <RalphS> Regrets+ Daniel
15:05:34 <RalphS> zakim, who's on the call?
15:05:39 <RalphS> Topic: Admin
15:07:03 <Antoine> scribe: Antoine
15:07:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB, Antoine, seanb, Bernard, Elisa_Kendall, Ralph
15:07:12 <Zakim> Ralph has Ralph, Ben_Adida
15:07:50 <Antoine> accept minutes previous meeting
15:08:09 <Antoine> ...minutes accepted
15:08:42 <Antoine> action on scribe convetions, next week
15:09:09 <Antoine> SKOS requirements
15:09:35 <Antoine> Sean: description of Cohse project
15:09:52 <Antoine> ... using owl ontologies to find documents associated to concepts
15:10:03 <Antoine> ... simple NLP to find expressions matching terms
15:10:19 <Antoine> ... providing links between docs and concepts
15:10:30 <Antoine> ... using ontology structure (hierarchy)
15:10:59 <Antoine> ... we have realizing that using OWL ontologies to structure navigation is not optimal
15:11:16 <Antoine> ... thesaurus structure (broader/narrower) would be better
15:11:24 <TomB> Sean: Using OWL ontologies not necessarily the right thing - for navigation, thesaurus is more appropriate.
15:11:37 <Antoine> ... so replacing skos-like vocabularies, wrapping them up with simple services
15:11:50 <Antoine> ... like synonyms, relationship retrieval
15:12:27 <Antoine> ... fitting pattern A: use vocabularary for retrieval, but also query the voc itself
15:13:17 <Antoine> ... not necessarily a full RDF repository
15:13:28 <Antoine> ... using a SKOS-like scheme
15:14:00 <Antoine> Bernard: confused by the word index, rather annotation
15:15:39 <Antoine> ... Sean agrees with the fact they are terminolgy problems
15:16:26 <TomB> RalphS: agree with Bernard re: discomfort with "index" - not sure "annotation" solves the problem...  BT/NT jumps out as big benefit - easy to explain to people.
15:16:26 <Antoine> ... other examples of uses of relations, than broader/narrower?
15:16:44 <Antoine> Sean: related term could be useful
15:17:30 <Antoine> ..important in the end: less precise bt/nt are more useful than RDFS/owl subClassOf
15:17:38 <TomB> Bernard: less-precise BT/NT much better fit to the relationships we want to use for navigation.
15:18:06 <Antoine> ... useful to acces thesaurus
15:18:40 <Antoine> TomB: discussion should be postponed until we are more numerous
15:19:00 <Antoine> Sean: is my document appropriate?
15:19:18 <Antoine> TomB: yes
15:19:43 <TomB> Antoine: Qst about use cases.
15:20:07 <TomB> ...Can we provide abstract use case?
15:20:50 <TomB> ...Should the data referred to in the use case be public?
15:21:29 <TomB> RalphS: We should consider real-example use cases where data is not necessarily available.  Like the level of detail of Sean's document.
15:22:31 <TomB> Bernard: SUN Microsystems ontology is not available - one of the use cases is Unified Product Taxonomy.  Others are public-domain.
15:22:40 <TomB> RalphS: could you describe that in general terms?
15:23:06 <TomB> Bernard: When project started, there was a description - details are not public.
15:23:11 <Zakim> + +1.650.450.aabb
15:23:29 <TomB> RalphS: Level of detail we need to drive design of SKOS - we can do that without having...
15:23:37 <RalphS> zakim, aabb is Daniel
15:23:39 <Zakim> +Daniel; got it
15:26:03 <Antoine> daniel? : the use case can be published.
15:26:24 <Antoine> ... it is actually important that some data is published!
15:26:27 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Oct/0041.html Daniel's use cases
15:27:44 <Antoine> daniel: terminologies were developped that could be used in computer services
15:27:48 <ryager> ryager has joined #swd
15:28:14 <Antoine> ... huge effort of knowledge creation in these cases
15:28:42 <Antoine> ... goal is too create a large library of termonologies
15:29:04 <Antoine> ... accessible for integration in various applications
15:29:16 <RalphS> q+
15:30:04 <Antoine> Sean: selling point of skos: semantic relationships to tie together concepts in a loose way
15:30:19 <Antoine> ... is it relevant for the biology cases?
15:31:03 <Antoine> Daniel: There is tension between informal and very formal
15:31:15 <TomB> Daniel: tension btw terminologies (loose) and ontologies (rigorous, formal) - there is no easy answer re: best solution - if SKOS can support both communities that would be ideal.
15:33:31 <Antoine> Daniel: tradeoff between precision and recall
15:33:53 <TomB> Daniel: tradeoff precision/recall - SKOS not appealing if doesn't accommodate need of some for crisp, formal semantics
15:34:17 <Antoine> ... relation like BT/NT could be specialised for ;ore useful links
15:34:33 <Antoine> ... for reasoning services
15:34:39 <TomB> Daniel: BT/NT very high-level - need more specific types of relationships
15:35:10 <Antoine> ... in anatomic models there are loosely defined links
15:36:37 <Antoine> ... important communites are looking forward to adopt standards like dublin core and skos
15:37:04 <Antoine> ... people developping functional genomics
15:37:45 <TomB> Daniel: community for functional genomics - consortium of researchers - basic biological research data - high-level ontology to subsume experimental investigation.
15:37:54 <seanb> q+ to ask about migration from "scruffy" to "neat"
15:38:27 <Antoine> Ralph: Daniel, the first two cases would be interested in more precise semantics. Are there specific applications?
15:39:06 <Antoine> ... what would motivate the need for more precise semantics?
15:39:39 <Antoine> Daniel: some communities are using classification to recognize inconsistencies
15:39:54 <Antoine> ... they want to create more 'intelligent' services
15:40:12 <Antoine> ... e.g. reasoning application which uses FMA
15:41:07 <Antoine> Ralph: what is the level of eagerness of these communities to follow swd schedule?
15:41:21 <Zakim> +Tom_Baker
15:41:52 <RalphS> (eagerness and urgency); i,e. what is our time window of opportunity?
15:41:53 <Zakim> -TomB
15:41:54 <Antoine> Daniel: they want standards
15:42:08 <Antoine> ... we're doing their work so timing is great
15:42:39 <Zakim> seanb, you wanted to ask about migration from "scruffy" to "neat"
15:42:43 <Antoine> TomB: acknowledge Sean and Daniel
15:43:26 <TomB> SeanB: Is there a gray area between scruffy and neat?
15:43:36 <Antoine> Sean: another question: is there there some migration path 
15:43:52 <Antoine> ... from application neeeding simple knowledge
15:44:09 <Antoine> ... to application needing rich formal semantics
15:44:43 <TomB> Daniel: Want to start simple and migrate to something more complex.
15:45:06 <Antoine> ... Even uses of subsomption can help
15:45:25 <RalphS> q+ to suggest additional information that would be useful to have with SKOS use cases
15:46:22 <Antoine> Ralph: it might be interesting to extend on Daniel's examples refering to the SKOS draft
15:46:38 <Antoine> ... use cases should point to things that work well
15:46:46 <Antoine> ... and to things that need more attention
15:47:11 <Antoine> Action: Daniel to link his use case to SKOS draft
15:47:26 <Antoine> TomB: Next item
15:47:27 <RalphS> Topic: RDF in XHTML
15:48:00 <Antoine> Ben: everyone interesting in RDFs is invited to participate
15:48:19 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Oct/0046.html meeting record: 2006-10-23 RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon 
15:48:22 <Antoine> ... goal is to make RDF work as XHTML1.1 module
15:48:52 <Antoine> 2 documents: RDFa syntax (more formal) and RDFa primer
15:49:01 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/ editor's draft RDFa syntax document
15:49:32 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/ editor's draft RDFa primer
15:49:46 <Antoine> ... one aim is to be able to create chunk of html self-contained wrt metadata
15:49:59 <Antoine> ... next steps: reification + containers
15:50:25 <Antoine> ... target is 4/6 weeks for next working drafts
15:51:00 <RalphS> q+ to ask Ben about schedule expectations for UC&R
15:51:31 <Antoine> two WG: SWD and RDF-in-RDF How can we best organize that?
15:52:22 <Antoine> Many people would not want to get involved in huge level of technical detail
15:52:40 <Antoine> ... but continuing copying important documents is useful
15:52:45 <Antoine> ... to get feedback
15:53:12 <Antoine> RalphS: set of question the TF should formulate to involve the WG
15:53:55 <RalphS> ack me
15:53:55 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to suggest additional information that would be useful to have with SKOS use cases and to ask Ben about schedule expectations for UC&R
15:54:25 <Antoine> Ben: about the documents issued by last TF
15:54:34 <Antoine> ... they should get feedback from the WG
15:56:29 <TomB> RalphS: an HTML WG shares these work items
15:56:30 <Antoine> ???: charter for HTML WG has gone for review
15:56:38 <RalphS> s/???/Ralph/
15:56:42 <TomB> RalphS: the charter for that group is still underway
15:56:44 <Antoine> ... there could be some re-scheduling to match
15:56:47 <RalphS> s/has gone/has not yet gone/
15:57:37 <Antoine> Who is interested to review use case requirements?
15:57:46 <RalphS> q+ to note SKOS + RDFa potential use cases
15:58:26 <RalphS> ack me
15:58:26 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to note SKOS + RDFa potential use cases
15:58:36 <Antoine> Some biological use cases could be also for RDF in HML?
15:58:43 <Antoine> Daniel: could be
15:58:53 <TomB> RalphS: do some of Daniel's use cases both SKOS and RDFa?  Involving HTML documents with embedded metadata?
15:59:29 <Antoine> Ralph: perhaps use cases for SKOS could be linked to RDF in HTML
16:00:13 <Zakim> -Bernard
16:00:32 <Antoine> TomB: Final point on receipes
16:00:35 <RalphS> Topic: Recipes for Publishing RDF Vocabularies
16:01:04 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Oct/0049.html "Recipes" Working Draft - comments from May 2006 [TomB 2006=10-24]
16:01:07 <Zakim> -Daniel
16:01:09 <benadida> benadida has left #SWD
16:01:11 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
16:01:14 <Zakim> -seanb
16:01:26 <seanb> seanb has left #swd
16:01:36 <TomB> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:01:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-minutes.html TomB
16:01:41 <RalphS> zakim, list attendees
16:01:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tom?, TomB, Antoine, +44.120.682.aaaa, seanb, Elisa_Kendall, Ralph, Ben_Adida, Bernard, +1.650.450.aabb, Daniel, Tom_Baker
16:01:53 <TomB> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-minutes.html TomB
16:02:36 <Zakim> +Rachel_Yager
16:05:37 <Zakim> -Antoine
16:10:26 <Zakim> -Rachel_Yager
16:11:43 <Zakim> -Tom_Baker
16:11:46 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:11:48 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:11:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Tom?, TomB, Antoine, +44.120.682.aaaa, seanb, Elisa_Kendall, Ralph, Ben_Adida, Bernard, +1.650.450.aabb, Daniel, Tom_Baker, Rachel_Yager
17:05:54 <RalphS> zakim, bye
17:05:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swd
17:06:08 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
17:06:08 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-actions.rdf :
17:06:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Daniel to link his use case to SKOS draft [1]
17:06:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-swd-irc#T15-47-11