IRC log of htmltf on 2006-10-23
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:55:19 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc
- 12:55:27 [RalphS]
- Meeting: RDFa Task Force
- 12:55:44 [RalphS]
- rrsagent, please make this record public
- 12:56:10 [RalphS]
- Previous: 2006-10-16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0047.html
- 12:56:27 [RalphS]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0058.html
- 12:56:49 [RalphS]
- agenda+ Action Item Review
- 12:56:54 [RalphS]
- agenda+ Reification
- 12:57:02 [RalphS]
- agenda+ RDF Containers in RDFa
- 12:57:09 [RalphS]
- agenda+ State of Documents, Assignment of Work
- 13:00:29 [EliasT]
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- 13:01:43 [Zakim]
- SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
- 13:01:50 [Zakim]
- +Ralph
- 13:03:06 [benadida]
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- +Ben_Adida
- 13:06:58 [Steven]
- Steven has joined #htmltf
- 13:07:06 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 13:07:06 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 13:07:07 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 13:08:58 [RalphS]
- zakim, take up agendum 1
- 13:08:58 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from RalphS]
- 13:09:09 [RalphS]
- [DONE] ACTION: Ben announce new URIs for editors' drafts to TF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
- 13:09:19 [RalphS]
- [DONE] ACTION: Elias summarize the reification discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
- 13:09:57 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
- 13:09:59 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 13:10:07 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
- 13:10:09 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 13:10:13 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
- 13:10:16 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 13:10:37 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
- 13:10:49 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 13:11:04 [RalphS]
- Steven: I work a bit on this each week; you can see changes
- 13:11:50 [RalphS]
- Steven: we've submitted a WWW2007 RDFa workshop proposal
- 13:12:12 [MarkB_]
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- 13:13:00 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 13:13:05 [MarkB_]
- zakim, i am ?
- 13:13:05 [Zakim]
- +MarkB_; got it
- 13:13:40 [RalphS]
- Mark: my action on striping examples is nearly ready to send out
- 13:13:45 [EliasT]
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- 13:14:09 [RalphS]
- Ben: reminder; we've targetted 27 Oct as date for code and examples of new syntax
- 13:14:19 [Zakim]
- +Elias_Torres
- 13:14:47 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
- 13:14:55 [RalphS]
- -- in progress
- 13:15:01 [RalphS]
- Elias: just started it
- 13:15:18 [Steven]
- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2006/xhtml2.xml
- 13:15:34 [RalphS]
- ^ sample XHTML2 document
- 13:15:55 [RalphS]
- Steven: at the moment it is intentionally served as text/html
- 13:16:00 [EliasT]
- ... http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#FAQ
- 13:16:15 [RalphS]
- ... I will make a snapshot as .xhtml so it is served with the correct MIME type
- 13:16:18 [Steven]
- s/text\/html/text\/xml/
- 13:16:40 [RalphS]
- s|/html|xml|
- 13:17:13 [RalphS]
- move to next agendum
- 13:17:13 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Reification" taken up [from RalphS]
- 13:18:18 [RalphS]
- Mark: my impression after the discussion was that some of the problems were due to reification in a particular context
- 13:18:33 [RalphS]
- ... for what we need, the issue seems more clear
- 13:19:07 [RalphS]
- s/we need/RDFa needs/
- 13:19:21 [RalphS]
- ... e.g. 'who said X' does seem to be clear
- 13:19:33 [RalphS]
- ... in the references that Elias cited
- 13:20:26 [RalphS]
- ... Dan's point is that he wants RDFa to be no more expressive than RDF/XML
- 13:20:47 [RalphS]
- ... so that all RDFa can be transformed to RDF/XML
- 13:21:08 [RalphS]
- Elias: I don't agree that it is clear how we can identify a triple
- 13:21:36 [RalphS]
- Mark: if it's not clear how to do this in RDF/XML then we don't need to do it in RDFa
- 13:22:04 [RalphS]
- Elias: by 'identify' I mean know whether it exists in a specific named graph
- 13:22:19 [RalphS]
- ... it's not clear how to say 'that triple'
- 13:22:40 [RalphS]
- ... the RDF spec is clear that reification is about identification, not about quoting
- 13:22:47 [RalphS]
- ... but we don't have a clear way to identify
- 13:23:10 [RalphS]
- Mark: but if RDF/XML hasn't solved the problem then RDFa can't solve it either
- 13:23:15 [RalphS]
- Elias: but we have documents
- 13:23:39 [RalphS]
- Mark: we can name some other type of Statement but we can't name an RDF triple
- 13:24:11 [RalphS]
- ... if we wanted to, we could say there is an xyz:Statement that has implicit information
- 13:24:43 [RalphS]
- ... but we'd still need some magic if there's no way to say that this maps to an rdf:Statement
- 13:25:07 [RalphS]
- Elias: RDF reification does not say that if you have the quad it implies the triple
- 13:25:33 [Steven]
- ( http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2006/xhtml2.xhtml is created )
- 13:25:38 [RalphS]
- Mark: in terms of generation from RDF/XML that's the case
- 13:25:51 [RalphS]
- ... you're not supposed to assume that the original triple exists
- 13:26:12 [RalphS]
- ... but that doesn't prevent the other way around
- 13:26:23 [RalphS]
- ... RDFa could say the triple exists
- 13:27:56 [RalphS]
- Ben: we can start with some RDFa and specify what it means in RDF/XML
- 13:28:27 [EliasT]
- Note that asserting the reification is not the same as asserting the original statement, and neither implies the other. That is, when someone says that John said something about the weight of a tent, they are not making a statement about the weight of a tent themselves, they are making a statement about something John said. Conversely, when someone describes the weight of a tent, they are not also making a statement about a statement they made (since they may
- 13:29:39 [RalphS]
- ^excerpt from RDF spec
- 13:30:53 [RalphS]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/#reification
- 13:31:39 [RalphS]
- Ben: but we can say that the dc:creator of the s/p/o quad is responsible for a triple asserted by that quad
- 13:32:28 [RalphS]
- Elias: we want to attach provenance to HTML documents, not to graphs
- 13:32:42 [RalphS]
- Ben: we know how to do that
- 13:33:11 [RalphS]
- ... e.g. a LINK or a META on a DIV can say who is the creator of that DIV
- 13:33:29 [RalphS]
- Mark: even without reification there is a question
- 13:33:39 [RalphS]
- ... on the one hand you're making statements about the DIV
- 13:33:59 [RalphS]
- ... on the other hand we're reusing it at a higher level to represent a bnode
- 13:34:09 [RalphS]
- Ben: but the bnode is just a local concept
- 13:34:29 [RalphS]
- Mark: to be consistent, the only thing you'd be making statements about is the DIV
- 13:35:00 [EliasT]
- <div class="foo bar"/>
- 13:35:02 [RalphS]
- ... similar issue to describing the car or the web page that describes the car
- 13:35:47 [RalphS]
- Elias: given a div with two classes, can we say that the two type statements were made by different creators?
- 13:35:57 [RalphS]
- Ralph: that seems a corner case
- 13:36:55 [RalphS]
- Mark: when we embed metadata in the document rather than have it standalone then we lose the ability to attach provenance to the metadata
- 13:37:27 [EliasT]
- <div>
- 13:37:27 [RalphS]
- Ben: we could add more to reify the class="foo bar" case if we really wanted to
- 13:37:36 [EliasT]
- <meta property="class">foo</meta>
- 13:37:40 [EliasT]
- <meta property="class">bar</meta>
- 13:37:43 [EliasT]
- </div>
- 13:38:00 [RalphS]
- Ben: that would be one way to think about it but this is still more than RDF/XML gives
- 13:38:17 [RalphS]
- ... but another way is to simply write the triple two times
- 13:38:41 [RalphS]
- Mark: 2 choices; 1. use reification as it is
- 13:38:58 [RalphS]
- ... we've agreed that you can't connect between the asserted triple and the quad
- 13:39:49 [RalphS]
- ... 2. say that the "RDF-ness" is not really in the document; explode the document, expand every property in the document so that the contents are all objects, etc.
- 13:40:17 [RalphS]
- ... then this exploded version is converted back 'down' to RDF/XML
- 13:40:54 [RalphS]
- ... method 2 makes things quite complicated
- 13:42:03 [RalphS]
- Elias: even if we go with method 1, there is still the question -- adding provenance to a DIV adds statements to multiple triples
- 13:42:20 [RalphS]
- ... and that DIV could become the object of some enclosing element
- 13:42:27 [EliasT]
- <div rel="foo" rev="bar">
- 13:42:32 [EliasT]
- .. reification ...
- 13:42:33 [EliasT]
- </div>
- 13:43:00 [RalphS]
- Elias: if our granularity is the XML element the reification applies to two different things
- 13:43:21 [RalphS]
- Mark: I could just about live with this
- 13:43:54 [RalphS]
- ... but in the IPTC case, given the statement "Reuters says this article is about skiing. Reuters is 80% confident in this categorization."
- 13:44:24 [RalphS]
- ... and separately "BBC says this article is about skiing. BBC is 60% confident in this categorization."
- 13:44:35 [RalphS]
- Ben: but this is an RDF problem too
- 13:45:15 [RalphS]
- Elias: if rev="bar" was added later by a different person than rel="foo" ...
- 13:45:30 [RalphS]
- Ben: you're talking about multiple authors changing the same piece of HTML
- 13:46:29 [RalphS]
- Elias: don't confuse two things; an HTML element and ...
- 13:46:38 [RalphS]
- ... the HTML element can create many triples
- 13:47:12 [RalphS]
- Ben: I can understand that attaching a link to a DIV is attaching the link to every triple
- 13:47:25 [RalphS]
- ... this may not be the best practice, but that _is_ what the HTML says
- 13:48:11 [EliasT]
-
- 13:48:11 [EliasT]
- <link rel="iptc:category" href="[iptc:skiiing]">
- 13:48:11 [EliasT]
- <meta property="iptc:confidence" content=".8" />
- 13:48:11 [EliasT]
- </link>
- 13:48:15 [RalphS]
- Elias: Reuter's 80% confidence is not in the statement itself but that the category is skiing
- 13:49:03 [RalphS]
- ... if I add iptc:joke to the categories, the 80% should still only apply to skiing
- 13:49:29 [RalphS]
- Ben: but why do we need to support that?
- 13:50:20 [RalphS]
- Elias: I am also worried about the case where the LINK element participates in an enclosing rev property
- 13:51:11 [RalphS]
- Ben: we need to look at some tricky examples give this new proposal and make sure they turn out sort-of reasonable
- 13:51:42 [RalphS]
- Mark: now I'm having trouble seeing these examples as reification
- 13:52:10 [RalphS]
- ... I am reevaluating my earlier comments suggesting that n-ary relations were not what we wanted
- 13:52:50 [RalphS]
- ... the category/confidence example can be done with n-ary relatoins
- 13:53:17 [RalphS]
- ... IPTC used a LINK element to add a confidence
- 13:54:27 [RalphS]
- ... perhaps a way out of the provenance issue is to handle it at the HTML level
- 13:54:57 [RalphS]
- ... use an additional HTML element rather than adding properties [to an existing one]
- 13:55:26 [RalphS]
- ... I'm starting to see that an n-ary solution fits more cases than I'd originally thought
- 13:56:10 [RalphS]
- ... I will extract more examples from original IPTC documents
- 13:56:30 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents
- 13:57:05 [benadida]
- ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be problematic with reification
- 13:57:32 [Zakim]
- -Ralph
- 13:59:10 [EliasT]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#useCase1
- 14:03:31 [Steven]
- http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
- 14:05:33 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 14:05:34 [Zakim]
- -Elias_Torres
- 14:05:35 [Zakim]
- -Ben_Adida
- 14:05:36 [Zakim]
- -MarkB_
- 14:05:37 [Zakim]
- SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
- 14:05:38 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_, Elias_Torres
- 14:06:51 [EliasT]
- EliasT has left #htmltf
- 14:34:07 [benadida]
- benadida has left #htmltf
- 15:12:55 [RalphS]
- zakim, bye
- 15:12:55 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #htmltf
- 15:13:01 [RalphS]
- rrsagent, please draft minutes
- 15:13:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
- 15:13:11 [RalphS]
- rrsagent, bye
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-actions.rdf :
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [1]
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-09-57
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [2]
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-10-07
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [3]
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-10-13
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [4]
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-10-37
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [5]
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-14-47
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [6]
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-56-30
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be problematic with reification [7]
- 15:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-57-05