13:35:02 ... similar issue to describing the car or the web page that describes the car 13:35:47 Elias: given a div with two classes, can we say that the two type statements were made by different creators? 13:35:57 Ralph: that seems a corner case 13:36:55 Mark: when we embed metadata in the document rather than have it standalone then we lose the ability to attach provenance to the metadata 13:37:27

13:37:27 Ben: we could add more to reify the class="foo bar" case if we really wanted to 13:37:36 foo 13:37:40 bar 13:37:43

13:38:00 Ben: that would be one way to think about it but this is still more than RDF/XML gives 13:38:17 ... but another way is to simply write the triple two times 13:38:41 Mark: 2 choices; 1. use reification as it is 13:38:58 ... we've agreed that you can't connect between the asserted triple and the quad 13:39:49 ... 2. say that the "RDF-ness" is not really in the document; explode the document, expand every property in the document so that the contents are all objects, etc. 13:40:17 ... then this exploded version is converted back 'down' to RDF/XML 13:40:54 ... method 2 makes things quite complicated 13:42:03 Elias: even if we go with method 1, there is still the question -- adding provenance to a DIV adds statements to multiple triples 13:42:20 ... and that DIV could become the object of some enclosing element 13:42:27

13:42:32 .. reification ... 13:42:33

13:43:00 Elias: if our granularity is the XML element the reification applies to two different things 13:43:21 Mark: I could just about live with this 13:43:54 ... but in the IPTC case, given the statement "Reuters says this article is about skiing. Reuters is 80% confident in this categorization." 13:44:24 ... and separately "BBC says this article is about skiing. BBC is 60% confident in this categorization." 13:44:35 Ben: but this is an RDF problem too 13:45:15 Elias: if rev="bar" was added later by a different person than rel="foo" ... 13:45:30 Ben: you're talking about multiple authors changing the same piece of HTML 13:46:29 Elias: don't confuse two things; an HTML element and ... 13:46:38 ... the HTML element can create many triples 13:47:12 Ben: I can understand that attaching a link to a DIV is attaching the link to every triple 13:47:25 ... this may not be the best practice, but that _is_ what the HTML says 13:48:11 13:48:11 13:48:11 13:48:11 13:48:15 Elias: Reuter's 80% confidence is not in the statement itself but that the category is skiing 13:49:03 ... if I add iptc:joke to the categories, the 80% should still only apply to skiing 13:49:29 Ben: but why do we need to support that? 13:50:20 Elias: I am also worried about the case where the LINK element participates in an enclosing rev property 13:51:11 Ben: we need to look at some tricky examples give this new proposal and make sure they turn out sort-of reasonable 13:51:42 Mark: now I'm having trouble seeing these examples as reification 13:52:10 ... I am reevaluating my earlier comments suggesting that n-ary relations were not what we wanted 13:52:50 ... the category/confidence example can be done with n-ary relatoins 13:53:17 ... IPTC used a LINK element to add a confidence 13:54:27 ... perhaps a way out of the provenance issue is to handle it at the HTML level 13:54:57 ... use an additional HTML element rather than adding properties [to an existing one] 13:55:26 ... I'm starting to see that an n-ary solution fits more cases than I'd originally thought 13:56:10 ... I will extract more examples from original IPTC documents 13:56:30 ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents 13:57:05 ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be problematic with reification 13:57:32 -Ralph 13:59:10 http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#useCase1 14:03:31 http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ 14:05:33 -Steven 14:05:34 -Elias_Torres 14:05:35 -Ben_Adida 14:05:36 -MarkB_ 14:05:37 SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended 14:05:38 Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_, Elias_Torres 14:06:51 EliasT has left #htmltf 14:34:07 benadida has left #htmltf 15:12:55 zakim, bye 15:12:55 Zakim has left #htmltf 15:13:01 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:13:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS 15:13:11 rrsagent, bye 15:13:11 I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-actions.rdf : 15:13:11 ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [1] 15:13:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-09-57 15:13:11 ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [2] 15:13:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-10-07 15:13:11 ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [3] 15:13:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-10-13 15:13:11 ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [4] 15:13:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-10-37 15:13:11 ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [5] 15:13:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-14-47 15:13:11 ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [6] 15:13:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-56-30 15:13:11 ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be problematic with reification [7] 15:13:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-irc#T13-57-05