IRC log of htmltf on 2006-10-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:46:22 [RRSAgent]

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12:46:22 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc

12:46:32 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log world

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12:54:13 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF

12:54:34 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0016.html

12:54:56 [RalphS]

Previous: 2006-10-03 http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html

12:55:17 [RalphS]

agenda+ Action Item Review

12:55:26 [RalphS]

agenda+ Better Bnode Support

12:55:35 [RalphS]

agenda+ CLASS and ROLE

12:55:46 [RalphS]

Chair: Ben

12:58:45 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

12:58:46 [Zakim]

+Ralph

12:59:50 [RalphS]

zakim, I am Ralph

12:59:50 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS, I now associate you with Ralph

13:00:32 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:00:32 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:00:34 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:03:00 [Zakim]

+EliasT

13:03:07 [benadida]

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13:03:27 [benadida]

uggh, trouble with network connectivity.. let's see how well this works

13:03:38 [EliasT]

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13:04:17 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:04:23 [benadida]

zakim, IPcaller is me

13:04:23 [Zakim]

+benadida; got it

13:05:14 [Zakim]

-benadida

13:05:16 [EliasT]

zakim, who's on the phone

13:05:16 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who's on the phone', EliasT

13:05:17 [EliasT]

zakim, who's on the phone?

13:05:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, EliasT

13:05:30 [EliasT]

Zakim, mute me

13:05:30 [Zakim]

EliasT should now be muted

13:05:44 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:06:05 [EliasT]

Zakim, please unmute

13:06:05 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'please unmute', EliasT

13:06:09 [EliasT]

Zakim, please unmute me

13:06:09 [Zakim]

EliasT should no longer be muted

13:06:37 [RalphS]

zakim, take up agendum 1

13:06:37 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from RalphS]

13:07:01 [RalphS]

zakim, list agenda

13:07:01 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:

13:07:02 [Zakim]

1. Action Item Review [from RalphS]

13:07:03 [Zakim]

2. Better Bnode Support [from RalphS]

13:07:04 [Zakim]

3. CLASS and ROLE [from RalphS]

13:07:34 [RalphS]

agenda+ Workflow on spec editing [Elias]

13:08:09 [Zakim]

+??P5

13:08:22 [RalphS]

Ben: everyone please send me email giving times you are available for TF telecons

13:08:58 [MarkB_]

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13:09:03 [RalphS]

ACTION: All to send Ben email giving times you are available for TF telecons

13:09:07 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p5 is Mark

13:09:07 [Zakim]

+Mark; got it

13:09:39 [RalphS]

q+ to ask about constraints

13:10:29 [RalphS]

Ben: nothing earlier than 8am EST (== 1200 UTC until 29 Oct)

13:12:00 [RalphS]

Steven: nothing later than 5PM my local time == 11am EST (== 1500 UTC until 29 Oct)

13:12:11 [RalphS]

... can start at 5PM

13:12:14 [RalphS]

ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

13:12:17 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:12:24 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

13:12:43 [RalphS]

Ben: I've made a tar file that will work with pretty much any Web server

13:12:59 [RalphS]

... there's some javascript magic; have to re-install the bookmarklet when you move servers

13:13:12 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]

13:13:14 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:13:17 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

13:13:19 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:13:26 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

13:14:11 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0018.html new bookmarklets (not stable yet) with hGRDDL for XHTML1 support [Ben 2006-10-09]

13:14:34 [RalphS]

Ben: the May version of the bookmarklets assumed that the default namespace was XHTML

13:14:48 [RalphS]

... the October versions of the bookmarklets assume the default namespace is the local document

13:15:01 [RalphS]

... tested in FireFox and some in Safari

13:15:40 [RalphS]

... LINK and META in the body get repositioned to the HEAD by FireFox for contentType text/html

13:15:55 [RalphS]

... though if added to body via DOM they stay in body

13:16:16 [RalphS]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:16:18 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2006/xhtml2.xml

13:16:21 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:16:30 [RalphS]

Steven: first part is partly done

13:17:05 [RalphS]

... intentionally not yet serving with a proper content type (just plain XML) so I can test the stylesheet

13:17:23 [RalphS]

... I've added dotted borders to indicate the sections

13:17:46 [RalphS]

... the styling is just pure CSS

13:18:23 [RalphS]

... links should render with a hand pointer and appear clickable, though they're not yet clickable

13:19:00 [benadida]

TF home page: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/

13:19:33 [RalphS]

Ben: I've put schedule on the TF home page

13:20:13 [RalphS]

zakim, next agendum

13:20:13 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Better Bnode Support" taken up [from RalphS]

13:20:55 [RalphS]

Ben: my bookmarks and Elias' rdflib are the cited 'parsing code'

13:21:08 [RalphS]

Elias: rdflib parses XML so I don't expect XHTML2 to be a problem

13:21:43 [RalphS]

Ben: Ivan sent a bibtex example and asked how RDFa would represent this

13:21:52 [RalphS]

... Mark proposed a solution

13:22:41 [RalphS]

Mark: ages ago we debated whether rel should become a default predicate for contained elements

13:23:06 [RalphS]

... fortunately we decided against this, which is good as now we can use rel alone as a way to connect 2 things

13:23:18 [benadida]

sample code:

13:23:19 [benadida]

<p rel="bibtex:journal">

13:23:24 [RalphS]

... my proposal is a bit like RDF/XML striping

13:23:36 [RalphS]

... the object becomes a nested subject

13:24:00 [RalphS]

... as Ivan pointed out, we had pretty good bnode support already but required explicit naming

13:24:19 [RalphS]

... in this proposal the element itself becomes the bnode

13:24:41 [benadida]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0015.html

13:25:06 [RalphS]

^Re: better support for bnodes [Ben 2006-10-08]

13:25:14 [RalphS]

Ben: currently, rel w/o href is not valid

13:25:50 [Steven]

q+

13:25:55 [RalphS]

... the proposal is to say that absence of href means the child element is the bnode

13:26:56 [RalphS]

Steven: re: your comment at the start of that message, I don't see why even META is needed

13:27:32 [RalphS]

... I'd need to understand why you thought SPAN was wrong

13:27:42 [RalphS]

Ben: by current rules, using SPAN would make the subject the DIV

13:28:22 [RalphS]

... in this case, with rel and no href maybe we want an implicit about; so we could use SPAN, but we wouldn't be able to elide a second href

13:28:31 [RalphS]

... we want the subject to be the bnode so META is better

13:29:01 [RalphS]

... there may be a way to make SPAN work but according to the current rules SPAN would give a different subject

13:29:31 [RalphS]

Mark: <A rel= href= ...> is really about the current document given current HTML rules

13:30:20 [RalphS]

Ben: in the example in 0015, if the DIV had an about then all the contained triples would have the explicitly named node as their subject

13:30:31 [benadida]

s/DIV/P/

13:30:33 [RalphS]

... in this case we just want to drop the explicit name

13:31:51 [RalphS]

Mark: nice to use the techniques we've designed to avoid having to duplicate markup

13:31:58 [RalphS]

rdf eh?

13:32:16 [RalphS]

Mark: another interesting question is whether we could ever have a bnode without a rel?

13:32:27 [RalphS]

... perhaps would need this for reification, which IPTC needs

13:32:47 [RalphS]

... IPTC wants to say what time the statements were made, and by whom, etc.

13:33:04 [RalphS]

Ben: not sure we have a way right now to reify a statement

13:33:16 [RalphS]

Mark: yes, if META is a child of META then we reify

13:33:27 [RalphS]

Ben: we had said this at one time but I though we'd dropped it

13:34:21 [RalphS]

... let's put reification on the agenda for next week

13:35:28 [benadida]

Ralph: striping is often a complaint of XML syntax

13:35:51 [benadida]

... does it looks like what it represents? Does HTML intuition work?

13:36:03 [benadida]

... it's explicable, but it should be intuitive, too.

13:37:42 [RalphS]

Ben: it seems a natural idea to provide more detail in child elements

13:38:30 [RalphS]

Elias: I like that it reduces our dependency on META and LINK

13:38:41 [RalphS]

... I'd like to try a variety of examples

13:39:05 [RalphS]

... would be good to have a test suite so we can examine the interactions

13:40:00 [RalphS]

Ben: agree that we need test scenarios. In an early proposal we had striping but we took it out when Jeremy Carroll's XSLT uncovered that that proposal produced many more triples than we'd expected

13:40:43 [RalphS]

... let's produce more test examples to help evaluate how intuitive this is

13:40:57 [RalphS]

Steven: the important part of Ivan's example is the triples, not necessarily the representation

13:41:10 [RalphS]

... e.g. we don't necessarily need to use LI to accomplish this

13:42:28 [RalphS]

Ben: I can try to update my bookmarklet to support this example

13:43:17 [RalphS]

Mark: we can revisit our current examples to see which ones would no longer need to give a local name to the bnodes

13:43:47 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new bnode support proposal

13:44:26 [RalphS]

move to next agendum

13:44:26 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "CLASS and ROLE" taken up [from RalphS]

13:44:42 [RalphS]

Ben: [summarizing current state]

13:44:51 [RalphS]

... class maps to rdf:type

13:45:15 [RalphS]

... role becomes xhtml:role and we decide later whether to extend this

13:45:36 [RalphS]

Mark: we do have the idea that role is a predicate of some sort

13:45:50 [RalphS]

Ben: and we don't need to implement role in XHTML1, right?

13:46:18 [RalphS]

Mark: but role is one of the XHTML2 success stories; people are already implementing it in current browsers, e.g. FireFox

13:46:48 [RalphS]

Steven: I am worried that people will be up in arms about us adding new meaning to class where it has such a long history

13:47:15 [RalphS]

... I don't think from classic HTML that one can derive an rdf:type of 'red' if someone has written class='red'

13:47:30 [RalphS]

... I think Dan Connolly would complain as he's said that we should not change the meaning of existing documents

13:47:43 [RalphS]

... and the CSS and microformats communities consider class to be theirs

13:48:01 [RalphS]

... but this proposal does do something that microformats are already doing

13:48:11 [RalphS]

... though they use it both for type and for predicate

13:48:54 [RalphS]

Ben: if we say that non-namespaced things are only local concepts; they'll generate RDF triples but things will only be local

13:49:15 [EliasT]

would they need to be in [] ?

13:49:40 [RalphS]

Steven: is it true that all the triples we care about in RDFa will have explicit namespaces indicated?

13:49:45 [RalphS]

Ben: yes, I think so

13:49:56 [RalphS]

Steven: I still fear backlash

13:50:23 [RalphS]

Elias: would we need '[...]' ?

13:50:27 [RalphS]

Ben, Mark: no

13:50:37 [RalphS]

Elias: I'd like to get more feedback from the community

13:50:50 [RalphS]

... we're not changing people's meaning

13:51:04 [RalphS]

Ben: it should not happen that we're making an RDF triple that people did not mean

13:51:14 [RalphS]

Elias: nor are we matching lots of microformats

13:51:28 [RalphS]

Ben: should not conflict with properly implemented microformats when they add a profile attribute

13:51:43 [RalphS]

Elias: class looks better, and I don't think the microformats folk own class

13:52:20 [RalphS]

[I'm inclined to think that using class is a good idea precisely because the microformats folk have shown that people like it]

13:53:09 [RalphS]

Mark: we really are talking about rdf:type

13:53:25 [RalphS]

... and this affects onlhy people who do know what they're doing

13:53:57 [RalphS]

... class='red' works as it did before; if a processor wants to generate rdf:type=red it could do so but why worry?

13:54:04 [RalphS]

s/onlhy/only/

13:54:28 [RalphS]

Mark: people need rdf:type in some form or another and the class solution works from lots of different angles

13:54:46 [RalphS]

Ben: I do think it's safe to use class but I want to be sure we have consensus

13:55:37 [RalphS]

Ben: any objections to sending mail to the community describing the proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses?

13:55:40 [RalphS]

[no objections]

13:56:05 [RalphS]

ACTION Ben: draft message to the community describing the class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses

13:57:12 [RalphS]

move to next agendum

13:57:12 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Workflow on spec editing" taken up [from Elias]

13:58:07 [RalphS]

Elias: Dan notes that Ian Davis' ERDF proposal already put RDF classes into the class attribute, with some punctuation

13:59:03 [RalphS]

Elias: why new URL for syntax document?

13:59:13 [RalphS]

Ben: the previous draft had no official standing

14:04:25 [RalphS]

Elias: note that the label text for Latest Version is not the same as the actual link

14:04:42 [RalphS]

... will http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-rdfa-syntax always be the latest editor's draft?

14:07:35 [Zakim]

-Mark

14:21:12 [RalphS]

[long discussion of 'Latest Version' and 'This Version' URIs for editor's drafts]

14:23:53 [EliasT]

.. /rdfa-primer

14:23:58 [EliasT]

.. /rdfa-syntax

14:24:53 [EliasT]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/

14:29:08 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/OEP/SimplePartWhole/

14:40:45 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/

14:41:59 [RalphS]

I propose http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax

14:42:45 [RalphS]

for the Latest Version URI

14:43:56 [EliasT]

rdfa-sytax/

14:44:27 [EliasT]

rq23/

14:44:35 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/XHTML/rdfa-syntax-2006-10-xx

14:46:04 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/XHTML/rdfa-syntax-2006-10-xx/

14:47:30 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time

14:48:28 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-owl-time-20060927/

14:49:24 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax-2006-10-xx/

14:49:57 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax-200610xx/

14:50:05 [RalphS]

[agreed]

14:51:51 [RalphS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0013.html

14:52:41 [RalphS]

I propose:

14:52:55 [RalphS]

1. edit http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-10-01-rdfa-syntax and fix the Latest Version URI

14:53:20 [RalphS]

2. edit http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-rdfa-syntax and fix the Latest Version URI

14:53:40 [RalphS]

in both cases the Latest Version URI is http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax

14:54:34 [RalphS]

changed ...

14:54:41 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax

14:57:40 [RalphS]

edit in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/

14:58:07 [RalphS]

edit in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.html

14:58:28 [RalphS]

edit in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml

15:01:18 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben move his live editor's draft to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.html

15:01:24 [RalphS]

s/.html/.xml/

15:03:55 [Zakim]

-EliasT

15:03:59 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:09:34 [RalphS]

go to the parent directory for WWW

15:09:42 [RalphS]

cvs co WWW/2006/07/SWD

15:20:14 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:20:25 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:20:26 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

15:20:28 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, Steven, EliasT, benadida, Ben_Adida, Mark

15:20:52 [RalphS]

I will redirect http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-10-01-rdfa-syntax now and wait to redirect http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-10-01-rdfa-primer for you to create RDFa/primer/

15:29:07 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:29:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS

15:29:23 [benadida]

benadida has left #htmltf

16:15:43 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

16:15:43 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #htmltf

16:15:45 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-actions.rdf :

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: All to send Ben email giving times you are available for TF telecons [1]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-09-03

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [2]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-12-14

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [3]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-13-12

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [4]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-13-17

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [5]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-16-16

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new bnode support proposal [6]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-43-47

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to draft message to the community describing the class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses [7]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-56-05

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben move his live editor's draft to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.html [8]

16:15:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T15-01-18