12:46:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
12:46:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc
12:46:32 <Steven> rrsagent, make log world
12:52:32 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #htmltf
12:54:13 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
12:54:34 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0016.html
12:54:56 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-10-03 http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html
12:55:17 <RalphS> agenda+ Action Item Review
12:55:26 <RalphS> agenda+ Better Bnode Support
12:55:35 <RalphS> agenda+ CLASS and ROLE
12:55:46 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
12:58:45 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
12:58:46 <Zakim> +Ralph
12:59:50 <RalphS> zakim, I am Ralph
12:59:50 <Zakim> ok, RalphS, I now associate you with Ralph
13:00:32 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:32 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:34 <Zakim> +Steven
13:03:00 <Zakim> +EliasT
13:03:07 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
13:03:27 <benadida> uggh, trouble with network connectivity.. let's see how well this works
13:03:38 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #htmltf
13:04:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:04:23 <benadida> zakim, IPcaller is me
13:04:23 <Zakim> +benadida; got it
13:05:14 <Zakim> -benadida
13:05:16 <EliasT> zakim, who's on the phone
13:05:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', EliasT
13:05:17 <EliasT> zakim, who's on the phone?
13:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, EliasT
13:05:30 <EliasT> Zakim, mute me
13:05:30 <Zakim> EliasT should now be muted
13:05:44 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:06:05 <EliasT> Zakim, please unmute
13:06:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please unmute', EliasT
13:06:09 <EliasT> Zakim, please unmute me
13:06:09 <Zakim> EliasT should no longer be muted
13:06:37 <RalphS> zakim, take up agendum 1
13:06:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from RalphS]
13:07:01 <RalphS> zakim, list agenda
13:07:01 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
13:07:02 <Zakim> 1. Action Item Review [from RalphS]
13:07:03 <Zakim> 2. Better Bnode Support [from RalphS]
13:07:04 <Zakim> 3. CLASS and ROLE [from RalphS]
13:07:34 <RalphS> agenda+ Workflow on spec editing [Elias]
13:08:09 <Zakim> +??P5
13:08:22 <RalphS> Ben: everyone please send me email giving times you are available for TF telecons
13:08:58 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
13:09:03 <RalphS> ACTION: All to send Ben email giving times you are available for TF telecons
13:09:07 <RalphS> zakim, ??p5 is Mark
13:09:07 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
13:09:39 <RalphS> q+ to ask about constraints
13:10:29 <RalphS> Ben: nothing earlier than 8am EST (== 1200 UTC until 29 Oct)
13:12:00 <RalphS> Steven: nothing later than 5PM my local time == 11am EST (== 1500 UTC until 29 Oct)
13:12:11 <RalphS> ... can start at 5PM
13:12:14 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:12:17 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:24 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:12:43 <RalphS> Ben: I've made a tar file that will work with pretty much any Web server
13:12:59 <RalphS> ... there's some javascript magic; have to re-install the bookmarklet when you move servers
13:13:12 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
13:13:14 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:17 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:13:19 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:26 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
13:14:11 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0018.html new bookmarklets (not stable yet) with hGRDDL for XHTML1 support [Ben 2006-10-09]
13:14:34 <RalphS> Ben: the May version of the bookmarklets assumed that the default namespace was XHTML
13:14:48 <RalphS> ... the October versions of the bookmarklets assume the default namespace is the local document
13:15:01 <RalphS> ... tested in FireFox and some in Safari
13:15:40 <RalphS> ... LINK and META in the body get repositioned to the HEAD by FireFox for contentType text/html
13:15:55 <RalphS> ... though if added to body via DOM they stay in body
13:16:16 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:16:18 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2006/xhtml2.xml
13:16:21 <RalphS> -- continues
13:16:30 <RalphS> Steven: first part is partly done
13:17:05 <RalphS> ... intentionally not yet serving with a proper content type (just plain XML) so I can test the stylesheet
13:17:23 <RalphS> ... I've added dotted borders to indicate the sections
13:17:46 <RalphS> ... the styling is just pure CSS
13:18:23 <RalphS> ... links should render with a hand pointer and appear clickable, though they're not yet clickable
13:19:00 <benadida>  TF home page: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/
13:19:33 <RalphS> Ben: I've put schedule on the TF home page
13:20:13 <RalphS> zakim, next agendum
13:20:13 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Better Bnode Support" taken up [from RalphS]
13:20:55 <RalphS> Ben: my bookmarks and Elias' rdflib are the cited 'parsing code'
13:21:08 <RalphS> Elias: rdflib parses XML so I don't expect XHTML2 to be a problem
13:21:43 <RalphS> Ben: Ivan sent a bibtex example and asked how RDFa would represent this
13:21:52 <RalphS> ... Mark proposed a solution
13:22:41 <RalphS> Mark: ages ago we debated whether rel should become a default predicate for contained elements
13:23:06 <RalphS> ... fortunately we decided against this, which is good as now we can use rel alone as a way to connect 2 things
13:23:18 <benadida> sample code:
13:23:19 <benadida> <p rel="bibtex:journal">
13:23:24 <RalphS> ... my proposal is a bit like RDF/XML striping
13:23:36 <RalphS> ... the object becomes a nested subject
13:24:00 <RalphS> ... as Ivan pointed out, we had pretty good bnode support already but required explicit naming
13:24:19 <RalphS> ... in this proposal the element itself becomes the bnode
13:24:41 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0015.html
13:25:06 <RalphS> ^Re: better support for bnodes [Ben 2006-10-08]
13:25:14 <RalphS> Ben: currently, rel w/o href is not valid
13:25:50 <Steven> q+
13:25:55 <RalphS> ... the proposal is to say that absence of href means the child element is the bnode
13:26:56 <RalphS> Steven: re: your comment at the start of that message, I don't see why even META is needed
13:27:32 <RalphS> ... I'd need to understand why you thought SPAN was wrong
13:27:42 <RalphS> Ben: by current rules, using SPAN would make the subject the DIV
13:28:22 <RalphS> ... in this case, with rel and no href maybe we want an implicit about; so we could use SPAN, but we wouldn't be able to elide a second href
13:28:31 <RalphS> ... we want the subject to be the bnode so META is better
13:29:01 <RalphS> ... there may be a way to make SPAN work but according to the current rules SPAN would give a different subject
13:29:31 <RalphS> Mark: <A rel= href= ...> is really about the current document given current HTML rules
13:30:20 <RalphS> Ben: in the example in 0015, if the DIV had an about then all the contained triples would have the explicitly named node as their subject
13:30:31 <benadida> s/DIV/P/
13:30:33 <RalphS> ... in this case we just want to drop the explicit name
13:31:51 <RalphS> Mark: nice to use the techniques we've designed to avoid having to duplicate markup
13:31:58 <RalphS> rdf eh?
13:32:16 <RalphS> Mark: another interesting question is whether we could ever have a bnode without a rel?
13:32:27 <RalphS> ... perhaps would need this for reification, which IPTC needs
13:32:47 <RalphS> ... IPTC wants to say what time the statements were made, and by whom, etc.
13:33:04 <RalphS> Ben: not sure we have a way right now to reify a statement
13:33:16 <RalphS> Mark: yes, if META is a child of META then we reify
13:33:27 <RalphS> Ben: we had said this at one time but I though we'd dropped it
13:34:21 <RalphS> ... let's put reification on the agenda for next week
13:35:28 <benadida> Ralph: striping is often a complaint of XML syntax
13:35:51 <benadida> ... does it looks like what it represents? Does HTML intuition work?
13:36:03 <benadida> ... it's explicable, but it should be intuitive, too.
13:37:42 <RalphS> Ben: it seems a natural idea to provide more detail in child elements
13:38:30 <RalphS> Elias: I like that it reduces our dependency on META and LINK
13:38:41 <RalphS> ... I'd like to try a variety of examples
13:39:05 <RalphS> ... would be good to have a test suite so we can examine the interactions
13:40:00 <RalphS> Ben: agree that we need test scenarios.  In an early proposal we had striping but we took it out when Jeremy Carroll's XSLT uncovered that that proposal produced many more triples than we'd expected
13:40:43 <RalphS> ... let's produce more test examples to help evaluate how intuitive this is
13:40:57 <RalphS> Steven: the important part of Ivan's example is the triples, not necessarily the representation
13:41:10 <RalphS> ... e.g. we don't necessarily need to use LI to accomplish this
13:42:28 <RalphS> Ben: I can try to update my bookmarklet to support this example
13:43:17 <RalphS> Mark: we can revisit our current examples to see which ones would no longer need to give a local name to the bnodes
13:43:47 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new bnode support proposal
13:44:26 <RalphS> move to next agendum
13:44:26 <Zakim> agendum 3. "CLASS and ROLE" taken up [from RalphS]
13:44:42 <RalphS> Ben: [summarizing current state]
13:44:51 <RalphS> ... class maps to rdf:type
13:45:15 <RalphS> ... role becomes xhtml:role and we decide later whether to extend this
13:45:36 <RalphS> Mark: we do have the idea that role is a predicate of some sort
13:45:50 <RalphS> Ben: and we don't need to implement role in XHTML1, right?
13:46:18 <RalphS> Mark: but role is one of the XHTML2 success stories; people are already implementing it in current browsers, e.g. FireFox
13:46:48 <RalphS> Steven: I am worried that people will be up in arms about us adding new meaning to class where it has such a long history
13:47:15 <RalphS> ... I don't think from classic HTML that one can derive an rdf:type of 'red' if someone has written class='red'
13:47:30 <RalphS> ... I think Dan Connolly would complain as he's said that we should not change the meaning of existing documents
13:47:43 <RalphS> ... and the CSS and microformats communities consider class to be theirs
13:48:01 <RalphS> ... but this proposal does do something that microformats are already doing
13:48:11 <RalphS> ... though they use it both for type and for predicate
13:48:54 <RalphS> Ben: if we say that non-namespaced things are only local concepts; they'll generate RDF triples but things will only be local
13:49:15 <EliasT> would they need to be in [] ?
13:49:40 <RalphS> Steven: is it true that all the triples we care about in RDFa will have explicit namespaces indicated?
13:49:45 <RalphS> Ben: yes, I think so
13:49:56 <RalphS> Steven: I still fear backlash
13:50:23 <RalphS> Elias: would we need '[...]' ?
13:50:27 <RalphS> Ben, Mark: no
13:50:37 <RalphS> Elias: I'd like to get more feedback from the community
13:50:50 <RalphS> ... we're not changing people's meaning
13:51:04 <RalphS> Ben: it should not happen that we're making an RDF triple that people did not mean
13:51:14 <RalphS> Elias: nor are we matching lots of microformats
13:51:28 <RalphS> Ben: should not conflict with properly implemented microformats when they add a profile attribute
13:51:43 <RalphS> Elias: class looks better, and I don't think the microformats folk own class
13:52:20 <RalphS> [I'm inclined to think that using class is a good idea precisely because the microformats folk have shown that people like it]
13:53:09 <RalphS> Mark: we really are talking about rdf:type
13:53:25 <RalphS> ... and this affects onlhy people who do know what they're doing
13:53:57 <RalphS> ... class='red' works as it did before; if a processor wants to generate rdf:type=red it could do so but why worry?
13:54:04 <RalphS> s/onlhy/only/
13:54:28 <RalphS> Mark: people need rdf:type in some form or another and the class solution works from lots of different angles
13:54:46 <RalphS> Ben: I do think it's safe to use class but I want to be sure we have consensus
13:55:37 <RalphS> Ben: any objections to sending mail to the community describing the proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses?
13:55:40 <RalphS> [no objections]
13:56:05 <RalphS> ACTION Ben: draft message to the community describing the class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses
13:57:12 <RalphS> move to next agendum
13:57:12 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Workflow on spec editing" taken up [from Elias]
13:58:07 <RalphS> Elias: Dan notes that Ian Davis' ERDF proposal already put RDF classes into the class attribute, with some punctuation
13:59:03 <RalphS> Elias: why new URL for syntax document?
13:59:13 <RalphS> Ben: the previous draft had no official standing
14:04:25 <RalphS> Elias: note that the label text for Latest Version is not the same as the actual link
14:04:42 <RalphS> ... will http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-rdfa-syntax always be the latest editor's draft?
14:07:35 <Zakim> -Mark
14:21:12 <RalphS> [long discussion of 'Latest Version' and 'This Version' URIs for editor's drafts]
14:23:53 <EliasT> .. /rdfa-primer
14:23:58 <EliasT> .. /rdfa-syntax
14:24:53 <EliasT> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/
14:29:08 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/OEP/SimplePartWhole/
14:40:45 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/
14:41:59 <RalphS> I propose http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax
14:42:45 <RalphS> for the Latest Version URI
14:43:56 <EliasT> rdfa-sytax/
14:44:27 <EliasT> rq23/
14:44:35 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/XHTML/rdfa-syntax-2006-10-xx
14:46:04 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/XHTML/rdfa-syntax-2006-10-xx/
14:47:30 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time
14:48:28 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-owl-time-20060927/
14:49:24 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax-2006-10-xx/
14:49:57 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax would proxy for http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax-200610xx/
14:50:05 <RalphS> [agreed]
14:51:51 <RalphS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0013.html
14:52:41 <RalphS> I propose:
14:52:55 <RalphS> 1. edit http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-10-01-rdfa-syntax and fix the Latest Version URI
14:53:20 <RalphS> 2. edit http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-rdfa-syntax and fix the Latest Version URI
14:53:40 <RalphS> in both cases the Latest Version URI is http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/rdfa-syntax
14:54:34 <RalphS> changed ...
14:54:41 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax
14:57:40 <RalphS> edit in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/
14:58:07 <RalphS> edit in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.html
14:58:28 <RalphS> edit in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml
15:01:18 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben move his live editor's draft to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.html
15:01:24 <RalphS> s/.html/.xml/
15:03:55 <Zakim> -EliasT
15:03:59 <Zakim> -Steven
15:09:34 <RalphS> go to the parent directory for WWW
15:09:42 <RalphS> cvs co WWW/2006/07/SWD
15:20:14 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:20:25 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:20:26 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:20:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Steven, EliasT, benadida, Ben_Adida, Mark
15:20:52 <RalphS> I will redirect http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-10-01-rdfa-syntax now and wait to redirect http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-10-01-rdfa-primer for you to create RDFa/primer/ 
15:29:07 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:29:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
15:29:23 <benadida> benadida has left #htmltf
16:15:43 <RalphS> zakim, bye
16:15:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf
16:15:45 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-actions.rdf :
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: All to send Ben email giving times you are available for TF telecons [1]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-09-03
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [2]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-12-14
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [3]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-13-12
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [4]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-13-17
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [5]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-16-16
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new bnode support proposal [6]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-43-47
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to draft message to the community describing the class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses [7]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T13-56-05
16:15:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben move his live editor's draft to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.html [8]
16:15:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-irc#T15-01-18