IRC log of htmltf on 2006-10-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:56:22 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
12:58:20 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
12:59:00 [Steven]
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12:59:44 [benadida]
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12:59:48 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
13:00:14 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:14 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:15 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:00:15 [Zakim]
13:00:40 [Zakim]
13:00:41 [Zakim]
13:00:43 [Zakim]
13:01:04 [RalphS]
13:01:32 [Zakim]
13:02:03 [MarkB_]
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13:02:54 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-09-25
13:05:08 [benadida]
Mark, are you dialing in?
13:05:55 [Zakim]
13:06:01 [MarkB_]
zakim, i am ?
13:06:01 [Zakim]
+MarkB_; got it
13:07:20 [RalphS]
agenda+ Action Item Review
13:07:26 [RalphS]
agenda+ Schedule over next 3 months
13:07:32 [RalphS]
agenda+ Better Bnode support
13:07:42 [RalphS]
zakim, take up item 1
13:07:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from RalphS]
13:08:01 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben mail a full example of the need for bnode support [recorded in]
13:08:18 [RalphS]
-> better support for bnodes [Ben 2006-10-01]
13:08:28 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven [recorded in]
13:08:29 [EliasT]
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13:08:30 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:08:43 [RalphS]
Steven: however, I have started such a sample myself
13:09:11 [Zakim]
13:09:12 [RalphS]
... the idea is to have an XHTML2 document with everything in it, right?
13:09:21 [RalphS]
Ben: with XHTML2 headers and content
13:10:02 [RalphS]
... mime type, http headers, and the html doc itself
13:10:15 [RalphS]
... then we can plug-in RDFa examples
13:10:23 [EliasT]
Zakim, Elias_Torres is me
13:10:23 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
13:10:29 [RalphS]
-- action Ben withdrawn
13:10:45 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to put together a work plan for the next 6-9 months of the TF [recorded in]
13:11:10 [RalphS]
Ben: I did a 3-month plan, propose that longer view be done after SWD WG is underway
13:11:15 [EliasT]
13:11:21 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'm happy with the 3-month view for now
13:11:29 [Steven]
13:11:30 [RalphS]
Elias: happy with 3-month plan
13:11:39 [Steven]
s/ME TOO/me too/
13:11:52 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Mark contact folk about connecting with our work [recorded in]
13:12:04 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in]
13:12:06 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:12:06 [Steven]
13:12:13 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in]
13:12:15 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:12:24 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in]
13:12:26 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:12:48 [RalphS]
Steven: I gave a plenary talk this past weekend at a European Information Architects conference
13:13:12 [RalphS]
... got a very positive response
13:13:35 [RalphS]
... but I could not show the bookmarklet example as there was no network available
13:14:03 [RalphS]
Ben: in my mail inbox I do have a proposed patch from Creative Commons to add a '#'
13:14:22 [RalphS]
... evidence that others are looking at the prototype and making suggestion
13:14:31 [RalphS]
13:15:29 [RalphS]
Steven: at a recent Hypertext CG meeting there was discussion about a DOM for RDF
13:15:52 [RalphS]
... perhaps Ben's bookmarklet should be a part of this discussion
13:16:16 [RalphS]
... as Ben has implemented a generic interface to accessing triples "in" a page
13:16:32 [RalphS]
Ben: what does HCG mean by RDF DOM?
13:17:01 [RalphS]
Steven: I'll look for links to the discussion, may be Member-only
13:17:24 [RalphS]
Elias: an RDF API will be more complicated that what Ben has done
13:17:39 [RalphS]
... statement-centric and resource-centric views
13:18:34 [RalphS]
... we have good starting points in Jena and Sesame, for example
13:18:43 [RalphS]
Ben: does rdflib qualify?
13:18:45 [RalphS]
Elias: sure
13:19:06 [RalphS]
... Ben's javascript API is a subset of what people have already been working with
13:20:09 [RalphS]
Ben: I've been following from an idea that I think Mark started; using an XML DOM and accessing "related" RDF triples at any point in that tree
13:20:26 [RalphS]
Elias: rendering is different
13:20:55 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, but it may be useful to be able to access triples assocated with a DOM node
13:21:35 [RalphS]
Elias: the Document Object Model equivalence for RDF is; given a document, how do you access the triples it contains?
13:21:59 [RalphS]
... this is abstract; doesn't need to specify any particular data structures
13:22:28 [RalphS]
... a general (DOM) API for RDF
13:23:11 [RalphS]
Steven: I'll track this HCG discussion
13:23:18 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in]
13:23:20 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:23:41 [RalphS]
Ben: the hGRDDL work is slightly delayed; it's not one of the primary use cases for the GRDDL WG
13:24:02 [RalphS]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in]
13:24:05 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:24:12 [RalphS]
in progress
13:24:45 [RalphS]
move to next agendum
13:24:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Schedule over next 3 months" taken up [from RalphS]
13:25:21 [RalphS]
-> tentative schedule for next 3 months [Ben 2006-10-01]
13:26:29 [RalphS]
Ben: it's an aggressive schedule but we've done a lot of work on core issues
13:26:46 [RalphS]
... good to refocus priority on getting RDFa to work in XHTML1
13:27:09 [RalphS]
... my 5 target dates attempt to take holidays into account
13:27:23 [RalphS]
... October 20th - updated Primer and Syntax documents for consistency
13:27:44 [RalphS]
... there are a couple of issues we need to settle for this next version; e.g. class and role
13:28:05 [RalphS]
... October 27th - set of example documents with parsing code and output RDF/XML or RDF/N3
13:28:15 [RalphS]
... Steven's document will be a good start on this
13:28:25 [RalphS]
... November 10th - new use case and requirements document for RDF-in-XHTML 1.1
13:28:45 [RalphS]
... we need to think about how much of RDFa we can put in XHTML1.1 and what changes we might want to XHTML1 to do this
13:29:00 [RalphS]
... need to take the old requirements document(s) and update them
13:29:23 [RalphS]
... December 1st - RDF-in-XHTML 1.1 details worked out
13:29:43 [RalphS]
... this is an internal date; goal is to have all the basic details of RDFa in XHTML1.1 worked out by 1 Dec
13:29:49 [RalphS]
... December 15th - RDF-in-XHTML 1.1 module specification WD #1
13:30:14 [RalphS]
Mark: looks good but I wonder if the use cases and requirements should be done first
13:30:50 [RalphS]
... we have a lot of documents around that are fairly mature
13:31:10 [RalphS]
... maybe we could work on the use cases and requirements in parallel
13:31:29 [RalphS]
Ben: I agree that most of the core work has bene done
13:31:51 [RalphS]
... part of this task is public relations but we don't have as much latitude to make changes to XHTML 1.1
13:32:14 [RalphS]
... XHTML2 was wide open so we may need to work harder to justify changes in XHTML 1.1
13:32:23 [RalphS]
Mark: there are certain limitations that current browsers impose
13:32:30 [RalphS]
... so part of the effort is to see what we can make work
13:32:43 [RalphS]
... for example, we may have difficulty putting href everywhere
13:32:56 [RalphS]
... I'd like to document what we currently have and experiment with implementations to see how far we can go
13:33:11 [RalphS]
q+ to support requirements work
13:33:46 [RalphS]
Ben: Nov 10 is not far off; if we can state requirements by then that say something about validation, for example, that would be good
13:34:20 [RalphS]
... the problem we've been trying to solve is a big one; ideally we'd like to do everything
13:34:38 [RalphS]
... with our work over the past 2 years we now know better what is going to be possible
13:34:54 [RalphS]
Mark: I think we know pretty much what we want RDFa to do by now
13:35:07 [RalphS]
... it should be easy for us to write up the use cases now
13:35:34 [RalphS]
... the requirements document may not match with what we can implement
13:36:07 [RalphS]
Ben: I compare to the DAWG (SPARQL) group; a lot of the SPARQL details were worked out before the requirements document was finished
13:36:49 [RalphS]
... my interpretation is that these requirements documents come after some investigation of what is possible
13:36:54 [RalphS]
Elias: it's not all one way or the other
13:37:08 [RalphS]
... some of the SPARQL UCR document was added after experimentation
13:37:26 [RalphS]
... but it is also true that the UCR document is compiled from requests
13:37:47 [RalphS]
... for example, people asked for an XML output format so we added it
13:38:01 [RalphS]
... UCR is based on both external and internal feedback
13:38:52 [RalphS]
Mark: there's input, e.g. from IPTC, on the RDFa spec; e.g. they wanted reification
13:39:04 [RalphS]
... but for XHTML1.1 the requirements may be much narrower
13:39:20 [RalphS]
... because we are concerned about what we can do with current browsers
13:39:27 [RalphS]
Elias: that in itself is a requirement
13:39:50 [RalphS]
... it might be a matter of identifying which things are addressed only in XHTML2
13:40:18 [RalphS]
... and other requirements, such as working with existing browsers, that only apply to XHTML 1.1
13:40:43 [RalphS]
13:40:55 [RalphS]
Mark: we've a lot of implementation experience by now
13:41:14 [Zakim]
RalphS, you wanted to support requirements work and to
13:43:00 [benadida]
Ralph: lots of information we hold in our heads that we should put down on paper
13:43:09 [MarkB_]
zakim, q+ To ask Ralph if he is referring to RDFa generally, or its implementation as an XHTML 1.1 module.
13:43:09 [Zakim]
I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue
13:43:27 [benadida]
... writing down what have been our goals is a good way to match "our" vs. "their" expectations
13:44:07 [RalphS]
Mark: RDFa in general or just the XHTML 1.1 module?
13:44:09 [RalphS]
Ralph: both
13:45:29 [RalphS]
Ben: some people will be coming to the table with interest only in XHTML 1
13:46:05 [RalphS]
Mark: when we're talking specifically about RDF in XHTML 1.1 that's a specific requirement
13:46:13 [RalphS]
... RDFa is broader than that; it's not just XHTML 1.1
13:47:23 [RalphS]
... getting RDFa into XHTML 1.1 is one requirement, figuring out what RDFa should do is a larger set of requirements
13:48:05 [RalphS]
Ralph: but we need one more level of detail than "RDF in XHTML"; we need to say whether, for example, reification is in or out, how much effort we put into making bnodes nice
13:48:16 [RalphS]
Mark: sounds like we're defining a new, subset language
13:48:52 [RalphS]
Ben: not really; it's a matter of presentation. It's ok to say some features will not show up in XHTML2
13:49:15 [benadida]
13:51:34 [RalphS]
Mark: I really don't want to spend my time on a requirements document
13:52:18 [RalphS]
Ralph: I want feedback from the community on how hard we should work to fit every possible feature into the XHTML 1.1 module
13:52:41 [RalphS]
Mark: we can look at (1) schema constraints and (2) impact on rendering
13:52:56 [RalphS]
... we're not asking fundamental questions about RDFa; it's mostly an implementation thing
13:53:27 [RalphS]
Ben: I propose that I take the lead on a UCR document and Mark take the lead on the RDFa specification document
13:53:42 [RalphS]
... these documents can feed each other
13:54:07 [RalphS]
... some people come at this with no prior understanding and want to know what problem we're trying to solve
13:54:19 [RalphS]
Mark: we need this for all of RDFa, not just for the XHTML 1.1 module
13:54:35 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, and we can point out which use cases we do not expect to be able to do in XHTML 1.1
13:55:16 [RalphS]
Mark: a UCR document that only focuses on XHTML 1.1 is too narrow
13:56:10 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias start an FAQ
13:56:54 [RalphS]
Steven: I expect to be less available during December
13:58:35 [RalphS]
Ralph: there's also a week of W3C meetings the end of November which affect my availability
14:01:17 [RalphS]
next meeting: 9 Oct, even though it's a holiday for some in US
14:02:22 [RalphS]
Steven: good news -- the HTML WG has just finished XHTML Print and gone to REC and there's more interest in RDFa now expressed
14:04:40 [Zakim]
14:04:41 [Zakim]
14:04:44 [Zakim]
14:05:06 [RalphS]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:05:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
14:07:45 [Zakim]
14:07:46 [Zakim]
14:07:46 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:07:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida, MarkB_, EliasT
14:07:48 [RalphS]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:07:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
14:25:53 [MarkB_]
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14:43:34 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
14:43:34 [Zakim]
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14:49:33 [Steven]
Steven, bye
14:49:36 [Steven]
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14:57:41 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:01:36 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in :
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven [recorded in] [1]
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in] [2]
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in] [3]
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in] [4]
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in] [5]
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in] [6]
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [7]
15:01:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in