12:56:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
12:56:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc
12:58:20 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
12:59:00 <Steven> Steven has joined #htmltf
12:59:44 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
12:59:48 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
13:00:14 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:14 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:15 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:00:15 <Zakim> +Steven
13:00:40 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:00:41 <Zakim> -Ralph
13:00:43 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:01:04 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0008.html
13:01:32 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:02:03 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
13:02:54 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-09-25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0002.html
13:05:08 <benadida> Mark, are you dialing in?
13:05:55 <Zakim> +??P2
13:06:01 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
13:06:01 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
13:07:20 <RalphS> agenda+ Action Item Review
13:07:26 <RalphS> agenda+ Schedule over next 3 months
13:07:32 <RalphS> agenda+ Better Bnode support
13:07:42 <RalphS> zakim, take up item 1
13:07:42 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from RalphS]
13:08:01 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben mail a full example of the need for bnode support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html#action12]
13:08:18 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0000.html better support for bnodes [Ben 2006-10-01]
13:08:28 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
13:08:29 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #htmltf
13:08:30 <RalphS> -- continues
13:08:43 <RalphS> Steven: however, I have started such a sample myself
13:09:11 <Zakim> +Elias_Torres
13:09:12 <RalphS> ... the idea is to have an XHTML2 document with everything in it, right?
13:09:21 <RalphS> Ben: with XHTML2 headers and content
13:10:02 <RalphS> ... mime type, http headers, and the html doc itself
13:10:15 <RalphS> ... then we can plug-in RDFa examples
13:10:23 <EliasT> Zakim, Elias_Torres is me
13:10:23 <Zakim> +EliasT; got it
13:10:29 <RalphS> -- action Ben withdrawn
13:10:45 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to put together a work plan for the next 6-9 months of the TF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html#action13]
13:11:10 <RalphS> Ben: I did a 3-month plan, propose that longer view be done after SWD WG is underway
13:11:15 <EliasT> yes
13:11:21 <RalphS> Ralph: I'm happy with the 3-month view for now
13:11:29 <Steven> ME TOO
13:11:30 <RalphS> Elias: happy with 3-month plan
13:11:39 <Steven> s/ME TOO/me too/
13:11:52 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:12:04 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:12:06 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:06 <Steven> q+
13:12:13 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
13:12:15 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:24 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:12:26 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:48 <RalphS> Steven: I gave a plenary talk this past weekend at a European Information Architects conference
13:13:12 <RalphS> ... got a very positive response
13:13:35 <RalphS> ... but I could not show the bookmarklet example as there was no network available
13:14:03 <RalphS> Ben: in my mail inbox I do have a proposed patch from Creative Commons to add a '#'
13:14:22 <RalphS> ... evidence that others are looking at the prototype and making suggestion
13:14:31 <RalphS> s/suggestion/suggestions/
13:15:29 <RalphS> Steven: at a recent Hypertext CG meeting there was discussion about a DOM for RDF
13:15:52 <RalphS> ... perhaps Ben's bookmarklet should be a part of this discussion
13:16:16 <RalphS> ... as Ben has implemented a generic interface to accessing triples "in" a page
13:16:32 <RalphS> Ben: what does HCG mean by RDF DOM?
13:17:01 <RalphS> Steven: I'll look for links to the discussion, may be Member-only
13:17:24 <RalphS> Elias: an RDF API will be more complicated that what Ben has done
13:17:39 <RalphS> ... statement-centric and resource-centric views
13:18:34 <RalphS> ... we have good starting points in Jena and Sesame, for example
13:18:43 <RalphS> Ben: does rdflib qualify?
13:18:45 <RalphS> Elias: sure
13:19:06 <RalphS> ... Ben's javascript API is a subset of what people have already been working with
13:20:09 <RalphS> Ben: I've been following from an idea that I think Mark started; using an XML DOM and accessing "related" RDF triples at any point in that tree
13:20:26 <RalphS> Elias: rendering is different
13:20:55 <RalphS> Ben: yes, but it may be useful to be able to access triples assocated with a DOM node
13:21:35 <RalphS> Elias: the Document Object Model equivalence for RDF is; given a document, how do you access the triples it contains?
13:21:59 <RalphS> ... this is abstract; doesn't need to specify any particular data structures
13:22:28 <RalphS> ... a general (DOM) API for RDF
13:23:11 <RalphS> Steven: I'll track this HCG discussion
13:23:18 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
13:23:20 <RalphS> -- continues
13:23:41 <RalphS> Ben: the hGRDDL work is slightly delayed; it's not one of the primary use cases for the GRDDL WG
13:24:02 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:24:05 <RalphS> -- continues
13:24:12 <RalphS> in progress
13:24:45 <RalphS> move to next agendum
13:24:45 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Schedule over next 3 months" taken up [from RalphS]
13:25:21 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0001.html tentative schedule for next 3 months [Ben 2006-10-01]
13:26:29 <RalphS> Ben: it's an aggressive schedule but we've done a lot of work on core issues
13:26:46 <RalphS> ... good to refocus priority on getting RDFa to work in XHTML1
13:27:09 <RalphS> ... my 5 target dates attempt to take holidays into account
13:27:23 <RalphS> ... October 20th - updated Primer and Syntax documents for consistency
13:27:44 <RalphS> ... there are a couple of issues we need to settle for this next version; e.g. class and role
13:28:05 <RalphS> ... October 27th - set of example documents with parsing code and output RDF/XML or RDF/N3
13:28:15 <RalphS> ... Steven's document will be a good start on this
13:28:25 <RalphS> ... November 10th - new use case and requirements document for RDF-in-XHTML 1.1
13:28:45 <RalphS> ... we need to think about how much of RDFa we can put in XHTML1.1 and what changes we might want to XHTML1 to do this
13:29:00 <RalphS> ... need to take the old requirements document(s) and update them
13:29:23 <RalphS> ... December 1st - RDF-in-XHTML 1.1 details worked out
13:29:43 <RalphS> ... this is an internal date; goal is to have all the basic details of RDFa in XHTML1.1 worked out by 1 Dec
13:29:49 <RalphS> ... December 15th - RDF-in-XHTML 1.1 module specification WD #1
13:30:14 <RalphS> Mark: looks good but I wonder if the use cases and requirements should be done first
13:30:50 <RalphS> ... we have a lot of documents around that are fairly mature
13:31:10 <RalphS> ... maybe we could work on the use cases and requirements in parallel
13:31:29 <RalphS> Ben: I agree that most of the core work has bene done
13:31:51 <RalphS> ... part of this task is public relations but we don't have as much latitude to make changes to XHTML 1.1
13:32:14 <RalphS> ... XHTML2 was wide open so we may need to work harder to justify changes in XHTML 1.1
13:32:23 <RalphS> Mark: there are certain limitations that current browsers impose
13:32:30 <RalphS> ... so part of the effort is to see what we can make work
13:32:43 <RalphS> ... for example, we may have difficulty putting href everywhere
13:32:56 <RalphS> ... I'd like to document what we currently have and experiment with implementations to see how far we can go
13:33:11 <RalphS> q+ to support requirements work
13:33:46 <RalphS> Ben: Nov 10 is not far off; if we can state requirements by then that say something about validation, for example, that would be good
13:34:20 <RalphS> ... the problem we've been trying to solve is a big one; ideally we'd like to do everything
13:34:38 <RalphS> ... with our work over the past 2 years we now know better what is going to be possible
13:34:54 <RalphS> Mark: I think we know pretty much what we want RDFa to do by now
13:35:07 <RalphS> ... it should be easy for us to write up the use cases now
13:35:34 <RalphS> ... the requirements document may not match with what we can implement
13:36:07 <RalphS> Ben: I compare to the DAWG (SPARQL) group; a lot of the SPARQL details were worked out before the requirements document was finished
13:36:49 <RalphS> ... my interpretation is that these requirements documents come after some investigation of what is possible
13:36:54 <RalphS> Elias: it's not all one way or the other
13:37:08 <RalphS> ... some of the SPARQL UCR document was added after experimentation
13:37:26 <RalphS> ... but it is also true that the UCR document is compiled from requests
13:37:47 <RalphS> ... for example, people asked for an XML output format so we added it
13:38:01 <RalphS> ... UCR is based on both external and internal feedback
13:38:52 <RalphS> Mark: there's input, e.g. from IPTC, on the RDFa spec; e.g. they wanted reification
13:39:04 <RalphS> ... but for XHTML1.1 the requirements may be much narrower
13:39:20 <RalphS> ... because we are concerned about what we can do with current browsers
13:39:27 <RalphS> Elias: that in itself is a requirement
13:39:50 <RalphS> ... it might be a matter of identifying which things are addressed only in XHTML2
13:40:18 <RalphS> ... and other requirements, such as working with existing browsers, that only apply to XHTML 1.1
13:40:43 <RalphS> q+
13:40:55 <RalphS> Mark: we've a lot of implementation experience by now
13:41:14 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to support requirements work and to 
13:43:00 <benadida> Ralph: lots of information we hold in our heads that we should put down on paper
13:43:09 <MarkB_> zakim, q+ To ask Ralph if he is referring to RDFa generally, or its implementation as an XHTML 1.1 module.
13:43:09 <Zakim> I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue
13:43:27 <benadida> ... writing down what have been our goals is a good way to match "our" vs. "their" expectations
13:44:07 <RalphS> Mark: RDFa in general or just the XHTML 1.1 module?
13:44:09 <RalphS> Ralph: both
13:45:29 <RalphS> Ben: some people will be coming to the table with interest only in XHTML 1
13:46:05 <RalphS> Mark: when we're talking specifically about RDF in XHTML 1.1 that's a specific requirement
13:46:13 <RalphS> ... RDFa is broader than that; it's not just XHTML 1.1
13:47:23 <RalphS> ... getting RDFa into XHTML 1.1 is one requirement, figuring out what RDFa should do is a larger set of requirements
13:48:05 <RalphS> Ralph: but we need one more level of detail than "RDF in XHTML"; we need to say whether, for example, reification is in or out, how much effort we put into making bnodes nice
13:48:16 <RalphS> Mark: sounds like we're defining a new, subset language
13:48:52 <RalphS> Ben: not really; it's a matter of presentation.  It's ok to say some features will not show up in XHTML2
13:49:15 <benadida> s/in/until/
13:51:34 <RalphS> Mark: I really don't want to spend my time on a requirements document
13:52:18 <RalphS> Ralph: I want feedback from the community on how hard we should work to fit every possible feature into the XHTML 1.1 module
13:52:41 <RalphS> Mark: we can look at (1) schema constraints and (2) impact on rendering
13:52:56 <RalphS> ... we're not asking fundamental questions about RDFa; it's mostly an implementation thing
13:53:27 <RalphS> Ben: I propose that I take the lead on a UCR document and Mark take the lead on the RDFa specification document
13:53:42 <RalphS> ... these documents can feed each other
13:54:07 <RalphS> ... some people come at this with no prior understanding and want to know what problem we're trying to solve
13:54:19 <RalphS> Mark: we need this for all of RDFa, not just for the XHTML 1.1 module
13:54:35 <RalphS> Ben: yes, and we can point out which use cases we do not expect to be able to do in XHTML 1.1
13:55:16 <RalphS> Mark: a UCR document that only focuses on XHTML 1.1 is too narrow
13:56:10 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias start an FAQ
13:56:54 <RalphS> Steven: I expect to be less available during December
13:58:35 <RalphS> Ralph: there's also a week of W3C meetings the end of November which affect my availability
14:01:17 <RalphS> next meeting: 9 Oct, even though it's a holiday for some in US
14:02:22 <RalphS> Steven: good news -- the HTML WG has just finished XHTML Print and gone to REC and there's more interest in RDFa now expressed
14:04:40 <Zakim> -EliasT
14:04:41 <Zakim> -MarkB_
14:04:44 <Zakim> -Steven
14:05:06 <RalphS> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:05:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
14:07:45 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:07:46 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:07:46 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:07:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida, MarkB_, EliasT
14:07:48 <RalphS> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:07:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
14:25:53 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
14:38:33 <benadida> benadida has left #htmltf
14:43:34 <RalphS> zakim, bye
14:43:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf
14:49:33 <Steven> Steven, bye
14:49:36 <Steven> Steven has left #htmltf
14:57:41 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
15:01:36 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-actions.rdf :
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html#action05] [1]
15:01:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc#T13-08-28
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [2]
15:01:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc#T13-12-04
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [3]
15:01:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc#T13-12-13
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [4]
15:01:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc#T13-12-24
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [5]
15:01:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc#T13-23-18
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [6]
15:01:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc#T13-24-02
15:01:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [7]
15:01:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-irc#T13-56-10