IRC log of htmltf on 2006-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:47:52 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #htmltf

12:47:52 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc

12:48:02 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

12:48:12 [RalphS]

zakim, this will be rdfxhtml

12:48:12 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

12:48:21 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make record public

12:49:01 [RalphS]

Previous: 2006-09-19 http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html

12:57:58 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0028.html

12:58:19 [RalphS]

RalphS has changed the topic to: 25 Sep RDFXHTML TF Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0028.html

13:02:20 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

13:02:27 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:02:39 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:02:39 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:02:40 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:03:51 [MarkB_]

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13:04:29 [Zakim]

+EliasT

13:05:15 [benadida]

benadida has joined #htmltf

13:05:22 [benadida]

hey there, just dialing in now

13:05:39 [Zakim]

+??P1

13:05:46 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

13:05:46 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

13:05:58 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #htmltf

13:07:34 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:07:44 [benadida]

zakim, i am IPcaller

13:07:44 [Zakim]

ok, benadida, I now associate you with [IPcaller]

13:08:34 [RalphS]

zakim, who's on the call?

13:08:36 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, EliasT, MarkB_, [IPcaller]

13:08:53 [EliasT]

Zakim, IPCaller is benadida

13:08:53 [Zakim]

+benadida; got it

13:08:53 [RalphS]

zakim, ipcaller is Ben

13:08:54 [Zakim]

sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller'

13:08:59 [RalphS]

Topic: Review of Action Items

13:09:09 [benadida]

action items: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0021

13:09:16 [RalphS]

action -1

13:09:34 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to find Elias's question and link to relevant discussion in the past [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

13:09:42 [RalphS]

-- done

13:10:28 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0024.html updated the issues list with comments from Elias and Lee [Ben 2006-09-22]

13:11:17 [benadida]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0025.html

13:11:44 [RalphS]

Ben: DanC commented too

13:11:58 [RalphS]

... we have to be sure everyone agrees that this is what HTML means

13:12:22 [RalphS]

... the point is that if we use the RDFa rules on existing HTML it should not cause wierd triples or triples not intended by the author

13:12:58 [RalphS]

Ben: we can continue to discuss this

13:13:52 [MarkB_]

zakim, q+

13:13:53 [Zakim]

I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue

13:14:47 [RalphS]

Ralph: two questions -- that HTML intended these triples in the past and that some spec documents that HTML intends these triples

13:15:27 [RalphS]

Mark: though we cannot retrospectively add semantics, now that we are talking about modules we have additional opportunities

13:16:12 [RalphS]

... so it may be easier to answer DanC's question; in the case of a module we don't have control over the whole language but we can look at a way to flag documents

13:16:29 [Steven]

Steven has left #htmltf

13:16:33 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben to put together Lee and Elias's emails into the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

13:16:46 [Steven]

Steven has joined #htmltf

13:16:57 [benadida]

--> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0024.html

13:17:28 [RalphS]

action -2

13:18:05 [RalphS]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:19:47 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:21:21 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven

13:21:50 [RalphS]

ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]

13:21:55 [RalphS]

-- done

13:22:07 [RalphS]

Steven: this was supposed to be in preparation for the HTML WG f2f

13:22:16 [RalphS]

action -5

13:22:26 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

13:22:27 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:22:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]

13:22:48 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:22:58 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

13:22:58 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:22:58 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

13:22:58 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:23:01 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

13:23:28 [RalphS]

Mark: this seems to be more related to HTML WG than to the TF

13:23:46 [RalphS]

... schneegans is using schemas to validate, so the point was to note the existence of our schemas

13:24:26 [RalphS]

Ben: we'd hoped to get them to try validating using Mark's XHTML 1.1 module

13:24:45 [RalphS]

Mark: but they seem to be using RelaxNG, contrary to what I'd remembered

13:25:08 [RalphS]

Ralph: it's worth sending even the 1-line message to see if we can get them engaged directly

13:25:26 [RalphS]

Mark: correction, they are using XML Schemas. I will send the 1-line message

13:26:07 [RalphS]

Topic: Better b-node support?

13:26:22 [RalphS]

Ben: Ivan brought this up; if you want a list of bibtex references on a page

13:26:39 [RalphS]

... often you really don't want to name the nodes; e.g. author nodes

13:27:14 [RalphS]

... you'd like to be able to copy & paste a chunk of HTML without having to make unique [local] IDs

13:27:29 [RalphS]

... how serious a problem do we think this is?

13:27:29 [RalphS]

... do we want more support for bnodes?

13:27:40 [RalphS]

... people who engage in complex modelling often want bnodes

13:27:58 [RalphS]

... but maybe RDFa is not a place for complex graphs

13:28:16 [RalphS]

q+ to note that SWD WG is supposed to produce a Requirements Document

13:29:01 [RalphS]

Mark: I couldn't quite get what it was that Ivan was saying that we could not do

13:29:08 [Zakim]

RalphS, you wanted to note that SWD WG is supposed to produce a Requirements Document

13:30:05 [MarkB_]

zakim, q+

13:30:05 [Zakim]

I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue

13:30:44 [RalphS]

Ralph: we can't resolve this bnode question without the SWD WG, and the SWD WG has a RDFa Requirements document on its schedule

13:31:48 [RalphS]

Mark: how does RDF/XML handle this?

13:32:19 [benadida]

:DJDKWBDADIH05 a bibtex:Article;

13:32:32 [RalphS]

Ralph: rdf:nodeID but I want to see a full example from Ivan

13:33:50 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben mail a full example of the need for bnode support

13:35:17 [RalphS]

Mark: there's also a question of what we're comparing against

13:35:35 [RalphS]

Topic: Building Test Documents

13:36:21 [RalphS]

Ben: I'm hoping that Elias and other implementors will send items for an FAQ

13:36:31 [RalphS]

Elias: are you thinking of a WiKi?

13:36:40 [RalphS]

Ben: on the rdfinfo site, but perhaps a WG Note

13:37:19 [RalphS]

Ralph: I think a WiKi is a good idea

13:38:15 [RalphS]

Elias: I'm happy to start a page on esw.w3.org

13:38:49 [RalphS]

... my overall feeling is that there is an overall lack of clarity in our documents and they are stale

13:39:59 [RalphS]

Ralph: open questions should be on our issues list

13:40:32 [RalphS]

Elias: let's give priority to publishing updated documents

13:41:30 [EliasT]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Sep/0000.html

13:42:19 [EliasT]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter#sec2

13:43:53 [RalphS]

Topic: Complete Specification of RDFa; RDFa Syntax Document?

13:44:12 [RalphS]

Ben: previously we had considered that the XHTML2 document would contain the normative specification of RDFa

13:44:31 [RalphS]

... but currently there is a lot of detail that is not present in the XHTML2 draft

13:44:46 [RalphS]

... the syntax document is out of date

13:44:56 [RalphS]

... has the HTML WG integrated everything it intends to integrate?

13:45:23 [RalphS]

Steve: I think the best thing is that XHTML2 include RDFa by reference and there is a separate RDFa document

13:45:23 [RalphS]

... so RDFa is defined as a module in itself

13:45:43 [RalphS]

... so others can also refer to the RDFa module

13:46:13 [EliasT]

q+ Steven, RDFa will be a module?

13:46:14 [RalphS]

... from a visibility point of view I think it is a good idea to keep a separate RDFa syntax document

13:46:24 [RalphS]

Mark: I agree with Steven

13:46:31 [EliasT]

q+ to Steven, RDFa will be a module?

13:46:55 [RalphS]

... as we're working on defining an XHTML 1.1 Modularization Module we may be able to incorporate this in XHTML2 without change

13:47:08 [RalphS]

q+ to speak to priorities

13:47:31 [Zakim]

EliasT, you wanted to Steven, RDFa will be a module?

13:47:42 [RalphS]

Elias: is RDFa not going to be native in XHTML2 ?

13:48:03 [RalphS]

Steven: yes, RDFa will be native in XHTML2. As far as I am concerned XHTML2 is the true target.

13:48:13 [RalphS]

... there have been requests to back-port it to XHTML 1.1

13:48:23 [RalphS]

Ben: a lot of XHTML2 is defined using XHTML modularization

13:48:29 [RalphS]

Steven: correct but we are redoing the modules for XHTML2

13:48:46 [RalphS]

Ben: but "module" does not mean "optional"

13:49:18 [RalphS]

Steven: correct; XHTML2 core will be a set of modules

13:49:18 [Zakim]

RalphS, you wanted to speak to priorities

13:51:03 [RalphS]

Steven: I had claimed a while ago that what we want to do in XHTML 1.1 was not possible without changes to XHTML 1.1 but Shane pointed out a way to permit this with a 1-line change

13:51:27 [MarkB_]

s/XHTML 1.1/XHTML Modularisation 1.1/

13:51:36 [MarkB_]

s/XHTML 1.1/XHTML Modularisation 1.1/

13:51:57 [RalphS]

Ralph: but which do we want to do first? the XHTML2 module or the XHTML 1.1 module?

13:52:13 [RalphS]

Steven: they will be the same thing, though the implementation of the modularization is different

13:52:58 [RalphS]

Mark: I vote for focussing attention on an XHTML 1.1 module and everything associated with that

13:53:19 [RalphS]

... make sure it all works with XHTML 1.1, including Ben's bookmarklet

13:53:19 [RalphS]

... get the whole story right on "current" documents

13:53:35 [RalphS]

... once the XHTML 1.1 module is done then it will be easy to import that into XHTML 2

13:53:50 [RalphS]

... timing-wise it is important to keep the current momentum from implementors going

13:54:10 [RalphS]

... so clarifying the discrepancies between our two documents is an important part of this

13:55:01 [RalphS]

Ralph: so an XHTML 1.1 RDFa module specification could be the separate document that Steven suggests

13:55:16 [RalphS]

Mark: there is no need for XHTML2 to be on the critical path for RDFa

13:55:21 [RalphS]

Ralph: I agree

13:56:02 [RalphS]

Ben: we had previously agreed that the RDFa syntax document would be obsoleted and the XHTML2 spec would contain everything

13:56:04 [RalphS]

... that's why we let the RDFa syntax document go stale

13:56:17 [RalphS]

... but I agree with the new direction to focus on an XHTML 1.1 module

13:56:53 [RalphS]

Elias: it is confusing that the word "module" means different things between XHTML1 and XHTML2

13:56:59 [MarkB_]

zakim, q+ to try to answer Elias' question on 'modules'.

13:56:59 [Zakim]

I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue

13:57:14 [RalphS]

q+ to ask about future telecon schedule

13:57:39 [RalphS]

Elias: we should work out the problems in the XHTML 1.1

13:58:36 [RalphS]

Topic: Telecon Time

13:58:46 [RalphS]

Ben: will this time on Mondays be acceptable until at least October 9?

13:58:49 [RalphS]

Mark, Elias, Ralph: ok

13:59:26 [RalphS]

[gotta go to next telecon; someone please scribe remaining important points]

13:59:29 [Zakim]

-Ralph

13:59:58 [benadida]

Ben: RDFa syntax to be XML generic, or XHTML specific?

14:00:21 [benadida]

MarkB: modularization can be used for generic XML, I think

14:00:30 [benadida]

Steven: that's right

14:00:38 [benadida]

... as long as the host language uses modules

14:00:59 [benadida]

MarkB: so, it depends on how generic we think of modularization

14:01:16 [benadida]

... we would like RDFa to be usable anywhere, but we're defining it as an XHTML module.

14:01:39 [benadida]

... the spec we're dealing with is XHTML Modularization 1.1, not XHTML 1.1

14:01:51 [benadida]

... XHTML 1.2 could be built using the techniques of XHTML Modularization 1.1

14:02:37 [benadida]

... because some folks are using schemas to validate XHTML, they're effectively creating a new language.

14:02:56 [benadida]

Steven: modularization includes rules about naming. XHTML = certain required modules

14:06:19 [benadida]

Ben: I think we should focus on XHTML in the RDFa Syntax

14:06:22 [benadida]

Mark: agreed

14:09:00 [EliasT]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter#sec2

14:15:53 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to put together a work plan for the next 6-9 months of the TF

14:17:27 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

14:17:28 [Zakim]

-EliasT

14:17:30 [Zakim]

-benadida

14:17:31 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:17:32 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

14:17:34 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, Steven, EliasT, MarkB_, benadida

14:17:38 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:17:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html Steven

14:17:49 [benadida]

it's that simple isn't it? I keep forgetting :)

14:18:18 [Steven]

almost :-)

14:18:21 [Steven]

Chair: Ben

14:18:47 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:18:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html Steven

14:19:59 [Steven]

s/[gotta go to next telecon; someone please scribe remaining important points]/Scribenick: benadida/

14:20:04 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:20:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html Steven

14:21:00 [Steven]

rrsagent, bye

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-actions.rdf :

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [3]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-18-05

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven [4]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-21-21

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [6]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-26

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [7]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-48

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [8]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-58

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [9]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-58-2

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [10]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-23-01

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben mail a full example of the need for bnode support [11]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-33-50

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to put together a work plan for the next 6-9 months of the TF [12]

14:21:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T14-15-53

14:21:02 [Steven]

zakim, bye

14:21:02 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #htmltf