15:06:19 RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg 15:06:20 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/20-grddl-wg-irc 15:06:44 rats, skype playing up again - for now only here in irc 15:07:19 Zakim has joined #grddl-wg 15:07:37 Zakim, who is on the phone 15:07:37 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', harryh 15:08:49 Zakim, who's here 15:08:49 harryh, you need to end that query with '?' 15:08:55 Zakim, who's here? 15:08:55 sorry, harryh, I don't know what conference this is 15:08:56 On IRC I see RRSAgent, iand, harryh, chimezie, ryager, danja, FabienGandon, DanC 15:09:06 Zakim, this is grddl-wg 15:09:06 sorry, harryh, I do not see a conference named 'grddl-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:09:15 Zakim, this is grddl. 15:09:15 ok, harryh; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM 15:09:23 benadida has joined #grddl-wg 15:09:25 oops; am I late? 15:09:30 Zakim, who's here 15:09:30 chimezie, you need to end that query with '?' 15:09:32 Zakim, who's here? 15:09:32 On the phone I see ??P12, Rachel_Yager, FabienGandon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Ben_Adida, iand 15:09:34 On IRC I see benadida, Zakim, RRSAgent, iand, harryh, chimezie, ryager, danja, FabienGandon, DanC 15:09:44 +DanC 15:09:52 invite rssagent here 15:10:06 RRSAgent, pointer? 15:10:06 See http://www.w3.org/2006/09/20-grddl-wg-irc#T15-10-06 15:10:20 Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda 15:10:20 working on it, DanC 15:10:22 agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-09-20T13:00-0400 15:10:23 agendum 1 added 15:10:24 agenda+ publication schedule 15:10:26 agendum 2 added 15:10:27 agenda+ Discussion of Primer Document 15:10:28 agendum 3 added 15:10:30 agenda+ Review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from last meeting 15:10:33 agendum 4 added 15:10:35 agenda+ GRDDL Spec: [#issue-base-param] 15:10:36 agendum 5 added 15:10:37 agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support? 15:10:38 agendum 6 added 15:10:39 agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns] 15:10:40 agendum 7 added 15:10:42 done reading agenda, DanC 15:10:53 Zakim, take up item 1 15:10:53 agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-09-20T13:00-0400" taken up 15:11:39 Scribe: DanC 15:11:51 Fabien is excused after xx:20 15:12:12 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Sep/att-0116/13-grddl-wg-minutes.html__charset_us-ascii minutes 13 Sep 15:12:21 RESOLVED: to approve minutes 13 Sep 15:13:15 HH: I may need to leave before end of call 15:13:27 PROPOSED: to meet again 27 Sep, per regular schedule 15:13:30 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:13:30 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC 15:13:32 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:13:32 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose FabienGandon 15:13:47 RESOLVED: to meet again 27 Sep, per regular schedule, FabienGandon to scribe. 15:13:49 Zakim, next item 15:13:49 agendum 2. "publication schedule" taken up 15:15:02 HH: w3c communications team and semweb CG is inclined to do all 3 drafts at once, 24 Oct... 15:17:11 DC: I'm inclined to publish the use cases doc this month, to keep to the 3 month rule 15:17:52 CHI: yeah, let's not sit on docs that are ready to go 15:18:42 HH: ok, I'll run that by the CG: 24 Oct press release date, and publish docs as they're ready 15:18:57 Zakim, next item 15:18:57 agendum 3. "Discussion of Primer Document" taken up 15:19:11 Zakim, take up item use cases 15:19:11 'use cases' does not match any agenda item, DanC 15:19:13 Zakim, take up item use case 15:19:13 'use case' does not match any agenda item, DanC 15:19:17 Zakim, take up item 4 15:19:17 agendum 4. "Review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from last meeting" taken up 15:19:41 HH: ready to go? 15:19:55 FG: modulo the 2 concerns from last week... 15:20:32 ... but I'm OK to publish with those unresolved. 15:21:20 Danny can you give the use-case document a final read? And then give us a response on whether it publishable or not? 15:21:32 or have you already read it closely? 15:21:32 will do - tonight 15:22:27 (straight after telecon) 15:22:34 FG: on XML Schema, I replied to Dan; I just need one high-level paragraph 15:22:44 CHI: I sent a suggestion. 15:24:04 HH: ok, so it looks like we'll be ready to decide next week 15:24:39 ACTION: Murray to send out his take on take on standardized vocabulary [CONTINUES] 15:25:23 ACTION: DanC: with BenA advise FG on CHI's XML Schema paragraph suggestion 15:26:22 chime's suggestion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Sep/0138.html 15:26:40 -FabienGandon 15:27:11 ACTION: BenA to flesh out HTML RDF/A output of GRDDL use cases [CONTINUES] 15:27:15 pending outputformats 15:27:24 rather... 15:27:30 ACTION: BenA to flesh out HTML RDF/A output of GRDDL use cases [DONE] 15:27:39 ACTION: Ryager to read draft thoroughly [CONTINUES] 15:27:50 ACTION: BenA to draft XML Schema use-case in context of Creative Commons and OAI. [DONE] 15:28:05 Zakim, close this item 15:28:05 agendum 4 closed 15:28:06 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:28:07 3. Discussion of Primer Document 15:28:11 Zakim, next item 15:28:11 agendum 3. "Discussion of Primer Document" taken up 15:28:39 ID: I added SPARQL to the primer 15:28:55 (I hope to move the primer to w3.org this week somehow.) 15:29:11 ID: I noted DanC's dtend fencepost bug [and fixed it?] 15:29:18 ACTION: iand to remove references to RDFa from primer [DONE] 15:29:29 ACTION: iand, Fabien to change wording of POX to 'single-purpose XML vocabulary' or something similar [DONE] 15:30:07 BenA: what exactly was removed? 15:30:12 ID: a surpious ref 15:30:47 ACTION: BenA will proof-read primer document [CONTINUES] 15:31:10 ACTION: chime will review primer document, advise on publishing as WD [CONTINUES] 15:31:39 ACTION DanC: get IanD cvs write access for primer work in GRDDL WG 15:32:14 DC: Danny was going to test the primer files... news/ 15:32:16 news? 15:32:43 ACTION DannyA: test the primer files [CONTINUES] 15:33:09 not done yet, got a bit too involved in the testing code... 15:33:38 -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/161 Talking with U.T. Austin students about the Microformats, Drug Discovery, the Tabulator, and the Semantic Web 15:33:47 DC: hmm... I presented GRDDL last week... sorta... 15:34:11 CHI: the parts of the primer I worked with were OK when I looked 15:34:14 Zakim, next item 15:34:14 agendum 5. "GRDDL Spec:" taken up [from #issue-base-param] 15:34:30 ACTION:DanC to enumerate options for base issue, pick one, and propose it in the form of a test case. See his suggestion to pass it as a parameter and discussion with Chime over extension functions. [CONTINUES] 15:34:56 Zakim, next item 15:34:56 agendum 5 was just opened, DanC 15:35:01 Zakim, close item 5 15:35:01 agendum 5, GRDDL Spec:, closed 15:35:02 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:35:03 6. [#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support? 15:35:03 Zakim, next item 15:35:03 agendum 6. "[#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support?" taken up 15:35:24 +Murray_Maloney 15:35:35 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Sep/0129.html Four options for discussion 15:35:55 HH: we've heard from DanC and Ben; I sent some options... 15:38:28 I'd go for a variant of 2), SHOULD for RDF/XML, MAY for others (not necessarily W3C-recommended) 15:39:16 DC: I don't have much rationale for requiring RDF/XML other than I have experience and I know how it works. 15:40:05 MM: GRDDL is easy to understand as "N in, 1 out"... 15:40:16 ... I can see it setting a precedent for similar things. 15:40:51 [CHI and DC discussed abstract syntax expressed as API calls rather than any concrete syntax too...] 15:41:29 MM: looking at the use cases and primer, they remind me of "application notes" about technologies many years ago... 15:42:46 q+ to comment on "other implementations" 15:43:02 q+ "not really 1 out" 15:43:09 q+ to "not really 1 out" 15:43:26 MM: I'm concerned that the use cases show doing too much GRDDL. 15:43:36 s/too much GRDDL/too much with GRDDL/ 15:43:56 Zakim, ack benadida 15:43:56 benadida, you wanted to comment on "other implementations" 15:43:57 I see chimezie on the speaker queue 15:44:34 q+ "too much variability hurts interop" 15:44:43 q+ to "too much variability hurts interop" 15:45:09 BenA: if transformations can only output RDF/XML, they can't express the presentation XHTML stuff while they're at it. 15:45:17 Zakim, ack chimezie 15:45:17 chimezie, you wanted to "not really 1 out" 15:45:19 I see iand on the speaker queue 15:45:58 q+ to note that the scope of GRDDL is getting data (think: spreadsheet, database) out of documents. 15:46:32 CHI: I prefer thinking of the output as RDF abstract syntax 15:47:01 MM: did I hear that RDF/XML is less expressive than other syntaxes? 15:47:15 CHI: yes 15:47:28 MM: and is there a "maximally expressive" syntax? 15:47:42 Zakim, ack iand 15:47:42 iand, you wanted to "too much variability hurts interop" 15:47:43 I see DanC on the speaker queue 15:47:44 CHI: well, sort of; SPARQL picked a middle ground rather than, e.g. N3 15:47:46 without at least one normative concrete syntax, where's the interop? 15:48:11 Zakim, ack DanC 15:48:11 DanC, you wanted to note that the scope of GRDDL is getting data (think: spreadsheet, database) out of documents. 15:48:13 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:50:50 DC: I lean the same way Ian does; the benefit of allowing other than RDF/XML isn't worth it. 15:51:04 seems like there is a 3 level stratification of GRDDL output 1) a specific RDF concrete syntax 2) any concretized abstract syntax (wouldn't include API calls) 3) any concretized abstract syntax in addition to API calls 15:51:16 I see no merit in (2) 15:52:01 I can't even imagine an API call scenario/usecase in the framework we have so far for GRDDL 15:52:11 problem is that there's no way to predict what syntax is going to be output by any given transformation 15:52:18 I think I overstated the need for an API approach in the GRDDL *spec* 15:53:19 HH polls for RDF/XML only vs RDF/XML preferred 15:54:28 HH: sounds about even 15:56:09 abstract syntax - http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-concepts-20040210/#section-Graph-syntax 15:56:31 DanC: the even poll makes re-inforces my preference to keep this open until we can get Brian McBride's input. 15:57:12 -Ben_Adida 15:57:20 benadida has left #grddl-wg 15:58:09 this is relevant - http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-Serialising 15:58:33 MM: is there a spec for going from RDF abstract syntax to RDF/XML? 15:58:47 DC: [confuses the issue with his ansewr; iand's pointer is the right answer] 15:59:35 The XML realm is syntactic (uniformity is important), the RDF realm is semantic/abstract (syntactic uniformity is irrelevant) 15:59:52 DC clarifies that RDFa is not the RDF abstract syntax, but rather another concrete syntax 16:00:10 HH: so if we mandated RDF/XML only, and other syntaxes mature, we'd have to rev GRDDL, right? 16:00:33 MM: or make a new thing, maybe "GARDEN". but there's real value in knowing the target of GRDDL. 16:03:07 Somewhat related: The rdf scutters I write (when met with a URL w/out an appropriate mime-type) attempt an RDF/XML parse first, TriX second, N3 third in that order 16:04:24 Zakim, agenda? 16:04:24 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 16:04:26 6. [#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support? 16:04:27 7. [#issue-mt-ns] 16:04:40 -harryh 16:05:15 Zakim, pick a chair 16:05:15 I don't understand 'pick a chair', DanC 16:05:19 Zakim, pick a victim 16:05:19 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC 16:05:25 :-P 16:09:47 (lots of discussion, not carefully scribed.) 16:13:33 If there is truely a very minimal set of abstract RDF that can't be expressed in RDF/XML im inclined to rethink my stance on abstract syntax 16:13:56 http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-Serialising gives you the exceptions 16:14:22 DC: one concrete use case where a transformation designer prefers other than RDF/XML is Atom/Owl. Henry story has written XQuery that produces turtle. I have tried to get him to produce RDF/XML, but I haven't managed. 16:22:53 MM: one possibility is that GRDDL specifies RDF/XML only, but a WG note specifies the less constrained version, that targets RDF abstract syntax 16:25:10 ADJOURN. 16:25:11 -Murray_Maloney 16:25:13 -Chimezie_Ogbuji 16:25:14 -Rachel_Yager 16:25:15 -iand 16:25:20 -DanC 16:25:21 SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended 16:25:22 Attendees were Rachel_Yager, FabienGandon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Ben_Adida, iand, DanC, harryh, Murray_Maloney 16:39:11 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:39:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC 17:03:14 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 17:04:04 Meeting: GRDDL Weekly 17:04:15 Chair: harryh 17:04:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:04:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC 17:05:01 Topic: post-meeting review of actions 17:05:14 ACTION:Harry to draft some elaboration on how media types work with GRDDL ("adding a sentence" as in this message). [CONTINUES] 17:05:27 harryh has made progress, but we haven't discussed the outcome 17:05:35 ACTION: Murray to suggest what GRDDL spec issues are covered by XML Processing, suggestion on how to fix it. [CONTINUES] 17:05:39 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:05:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC 17:06:03 Regrets: danja 18:27:05 Zakim has left #grddl-wg 21:23:34 danja has joined #grddl-wg 21:48:33 RRSAgent, draft minutes 21:48:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html DanC