IRC log of i18ncore on 2006-09-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc

13:51:22 [fsasaki]

meeting: i18n core working group

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chair: Francois

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scribe: Felix

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scribeNick: fsasaki

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agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Sep/0001.html

14:00:40 [Zakim]

I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started

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+[IPcaller]

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+Felix

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fyergeau has joined #i18ncore

14:01:18 [fyergeau]

zakim, who is here?

14:01:18 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IPcaller], Felix

14:01:19 [Zakim]

On IRC I see fyergeau, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki

14:01:31 [fyergeau]

zakim, [ is fyergeau

14:01:31 [Zakim]

+fyergeau; got it

14:05:29 [r12a]

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14:05:36 [r12a]

zakim, dial richard-home

14:05:36 [Zakim]

ok, r12a; the call is being made

14:05:37 [Zakim]

+Richard

14:07:25 [fsasaki]

topic: action items

14:08:37 [fsasaki]

action: Everybody to look at input mode discussion (DROPPED)

14:09:10 [fsasaki]

ACTION: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback (PENDING)

14:12:51 [fsasaki]

Felix: Chris Lilley asked for IRI tests for SVG tiny 1.2 , I thought of creating a mini-test suite

14:14:44 [fsasaki]

Francois: we have no bandwith for a full test suite. Is the scope of the SVG tiny tests clear?

14:14:57 [fsasaki]

Felix: no, so far only PC between Chris and me

14:15:01 [fyergeau]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/CR-SVGMobile12-20060810/

14:16:36 [fsasaki]

ACTION: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list

14:17:00 [fsasaki]

ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING)

14:17:09 [fsasaki]

ACTION: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n (PENDING)

14:17:22 [fsasaki]

ACTION: Francois to give input to wiki for the LTLI summary

14:17:28 [fsasaki]

Wiki

14:17:28 [fsasaki]

prepared by Richard, see

14:17:28 [fsasaki]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Jul/0026.html

14:18:41 [fsasaki]

Action: Richard to review XHTML Basic 1.1$B!!(Band XHTML$B!!(BModularization 1.1 (DROPPED)

14:20:10 [fsasaki]

topic: ITS review - what is left? E.g. discussion on Bidi-override scope in CSS2 and CSS 2.1

14:21:04 [fsasaki]

Richard: I think we are done, I need to double check

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s/done/done with the ITS review/

14:21:41 [fsasaki]

topic: discussion on Bidi-override scope in CSS2 and CSS 2.1

14:22:33 [fsasaki]

Richard: I wrote a long mail on this yesterday, with about 7 questions

14:22:42 [fsasaki]

.. some for XHTML people, some for CSS people

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.. we have to wait for some response from CSS

14:23:26 [fsasaki]

.. basic idea: Martin and I believe that if you declare override on the block-element, everything in that element should be overriden

14:24:01 [fsasaki]

.. currently, CSS 2.1 don't say that, and the current implementations in browsers follow CSS 2.1

14:24:29 [fsasaki]

Francois: e.g. if you have a dir attribute at a <div> element, everything should be overriden?

14:25:21 [fsasaki]

Richard: currently there is no override for CSS 2: if there is a <p> in the <div>, nothing will happen

14:25:46 [fsasaki]

.. in CSS 2.1, there will be an override for the <p> , but not for e.g. a <div> within the <div>

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.. e.g. text in a <p> in a <div> within a <div> will not be reordered

14:26:27 [fsasaki]

Francois: sounds strange. Touches many working groups

14:27:02 [fsasaki]

.. very specialized subject for some people. We should try to engage them, does Najib know about this?

14:27:05 [fsasaki]

Richard: no

14:27:23 [fsasaki]

.. Paul Nelson got involved a bit

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.. what do you think what should happen?

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Francois: I think everything in a <div> should be overriden

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.. there could be reasons not to override everything

14:29:37 [fsasaki]

Felix: I would follow Richard's and Martin's proposal

14:30:16 [fsasaki]

Richard: having e.g. dir="rtl" would cancel the override

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.. for an embedded element

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Francois: having override on a block element is not an interesting requirement

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.. it is only for small bits of text

14:31:10 [fsasaki]

Richard: I recently edited a boiler template text for Hebrew / Arabic

14:31:34 [fsasaki]

.. in that case, I really wanted to have the override

14:33:04 [fsasaki]

(discussion on use-cases for block-level override)

14:35:11 [fsasaki]

(Richard says that dealing with visualy ordered text is a use case)

14:39:57 [fsasaki]

Richard: the behavior of CSS 2.1 described at [Question 3 (CSS)] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006JulSep/0157.html is what current browsers do

14:40:51 [fsasaki]

Francois: does this relate to bidi-override inheritance?

14:41:04 [fsasaki]

Richard: we have to consider in ITS what that means

14:41:25 [fsasaki]

.. we say in ITS that RLO is inherited, but say that the behavior depends on the implementation

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.. so we separated inheritance from behavior

14:42:57 [fsasaki]

Felix: in ITS, there is nothing about behavior, all is about inheritance of information - for all data categories

14:43:16 [fsasaki]

Francois: we should get more people in this discussion

14:43:49 [fsasaki]

.. Richard showed in his mail that specs and behaviors contradict

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.. I think there is a bidi-list at Unicode, we should invite people from that list

14:44:39 [fsasaki]

Richard: we could also blog on it, or discuss it on www-international

14:44:50 [fsasaki]

Francois: we might loose the style people

14:45:10 [fsasaki]

.. so we move out of of i18n-core, and go to www-international

14:45:53 [fsasaki]

.. what about Paul's reply to your mail?

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Richard: I'm not sure what he is up to

14:46:58 [fsasaki]

Francois: inheritance in CSS means: if s.t. is inherited, the effect is the same as being specified at a specific element

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Richard: for directionality, that means a new embedding level

14:47:45 [fsasaki]

Francois: yes.

14:48:22 [fsasaki]

.. you could also say that directionality is not inherited, but the effect "goes down"

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Richard: you have 3 ways of inheritance: ITS (no behavior)

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.. behavior without inheritance, and inheritance together with behavior

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s/no behavior)/no behavior, only inheritance of information)

14:51:06 [fsasaki]

Richard: what will happen without markup, with multiple lines of text?

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.. is there some effect of newlines?

14:51:41 [fsasaki]

Francois: newlines in XML are just converted to spaces

14:51:48 [fsasaki]

Richard: what about plain text?

14:51:59 [fsasaki]

Francois: not aware of a specific handling

14:53:39 [fsasaki]

Richard: next step: I resend the mail to www-international and the style-list

14:53:58 [fsasaki]

Francois: copy the BIDI-unicode list

14:54:34 [fsasaki]

Action: Richard to send his mail on bidi-override scope in CSS2 and CSS 2.1 to www-international and the style-list, and copy the BIDI-unicode list

14:55:08 [fsasaki]

topic: XML Schema issue

14:55:08 [fsasaki]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006JulSep/0134.html

14:55:39 [fsasaki]

Francois summarizes the mail

14:57:42 [fsasaki]

Richard: we have enough on the battle of early normalization

14:57:45 [fsasaki]

Francois: yes

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.. I sad it was a good idea

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.. we cannot have early Unicode normalization, so it is better to have this

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.. I send my reply to Michael also to the list and wait a week

14:59:54 [fsasaki]

action: Francois to send his reply on xml schema to the list

14:59:58 [fsasaki]

topic: LC reviews

15:00:09 [fsasaki]

Felix: possibility of reviewing Voice Extensible Markup Language (VoiceXML) 2.1

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.. see http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-voicexml21-20060915/

15:00:39 [fsasaki]

Francois: changes at http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-voicexml21-20060915/#sec-changes

15:00:50 [fsasaki]

.. nothing i18n specific it seems

15:01:40 [Zakim]

-fyergeau

15:01:45 [Zakim]

-Felix

15:01:52 [Zakim]

-Richard

15:01:54 [Zakim]

I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended

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Attendees were [IPcaller], Felix, fyergeau, Richard

15:02:10 [fsasaki]

Present: Felix, Francois, Richard

15:02:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki

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I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-actions.rdf :

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Everybody to look at input mode discussion (DROPPED) [1]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-37

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback (PENDING) [2]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-09-10

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list [3]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-16-36

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING) [4]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-00

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n (PENDING) [5]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-09

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois to give input to wiki for the LTLI summary [6]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-22

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Richard to review XHTML Basic 1.1$B!!(Band XHTML$B!!(BModularization 1.1 (DROPPED) [7]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-18-41

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Richard to send his mail on bidi-override scope in CSS2 and CSS 2.1 to www-international and the style-list, and copy the BIDI-unicode list [8]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-54-34

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois to send his reply on xml schema to the list [9]

15:09:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-i18ncore-irc#T14-59-54

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