12:44:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
12:44:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc
12:44:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
12:44:52 <Steven> zakim this will be rdf
12:44:58 <Steven> zakim, this will be rdf
12:44:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
12:59:08 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
13:00:21 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:00:28 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:00:38 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:38 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:39 <Zakim> +Steven
13:03:16 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623/
13:08:04 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
13:09:41 <Zakim> +Mark_Birbeck
13:11:31 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-forms/2006JulSep/0118.html
13:11:59 <Steven> Meeting: RDFa Taskforce weekly teleconference
13:12:03 <Steven> Chair: Ben
13:12:13 <Steven> Regrets: Elias
13:12:40 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Aug/0003.html
13:13:01 <benadida> Scribe: benadida
13:14:17 <benadida> Steven regrets for 3 calls
13:15:55 <benadida> ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes
13:16:02 <benadida> [done]
13:17:39 <benadida> Steven: worried that using @CLASS will make some people upset
13:17:48 <benadida> Ben: maybe if we have a way to include MFs, it will be okay
13:18:04 <benadida> Steven: CSS people may feel (rightly or wrongly) thta the @CLASS attribute is theirs
13:18:28 <benadida> ... CSS people are the biggest critics of XML namespaces / semantic web
13:19:57 <benadida> Ben: using namespaced classes might be a problem for CSS folks until they support namespaces
13:20:12 <benadida> Steven: it depends, the ':' was chosen because it's a valid XML string
13:20:33 <benadida> ... in HTML, if you see something with a colon, it's really that string
13:20:44 <benadida> ... in CSS, you can only escape the ':', cause no concept of namespaces
13:20:51 <benadida> Ben: what about CSS2?
13:20:54 <benadida> Mark: yes
13:21:14 <benadida> Steven: an extension around CSS2 that is de-facto standard
13:21:16 <benadida> Mark: 2.1
13:21:40 <benadida> ... 2.1 brings extensions of 2.0 together
13:22:25 <benadida> Steven: actually, it's CSS 3
13:22:25 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:22:44 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #htmltf
13:22:52 <benadida> ... the proposal is actually dated 1999
13:22:55 <RalphS> aplogies; I lost track of the day & time today!
13:23:04 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/
13:23:04 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/
13:24:06 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-20011113/#typenmsp
13:25:34 <benadida> Mark: it's only the elements and attributes names that are namespaced
13:25:43 <benadida> Steven: no concept of namespaced attribute value, like in @CLASS
13:25:44 <RalphS> Steven: CSS does not have a notion of a namespaced attribute value
13:25:51 <RalphS> scribe: Ralph
13:26:01 <RalphS> scribenick: ralphs
13:26:22 <RalphS> Ben: so there's no spec on the table that lets @CLASS names in CSS have namespaces?
13:26:35 <RalphS> Steven: correct, no namespaced values at all on the table for CSS
13:26:50 <RalphS> Mark: it could be the case that people have written class names that contain colongs
13:26:53 <RalphS> s/ongs/ons/
13:27:08 <RalphS> ... so RDFa would create triples in such cases
13:27:22 <RalphS> ... this is fine if it was intended by the author
13:27:42 <RalphS> ... but if it was used pre-RDFa, the author may not have intended it
13:28:52 <RalphS> Mark: we need to start with what we think is right and persuade others
13:29:10 <RalphS> Ben: they're saying the class attribute is a type
13:29:31 <RalphS> ... and as we're on the Web we want these to have namespaced values
13:30:18 <MarkB_> (Mark is agreeing with Ben's earlier, rather forthright, point, that we should begin with what we think is right for "the web, XHTML, authors and RDF".)
13:31:06 <RalphS> Ben: I hear Steven worried about the potential backlash from others, not about the technical correctness
13:31:34 <RalphS> Steven: I see advantages and disadvantages.  I'd rather not irritate people
13:32:24 <RalphS> Mark: but if we don't do namespaced values in class, we will irritate others who do think they've done the right thing [with namespaces]
13:32:50 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Aug/0003.html
13:33:10 <RalphS> Previous: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Aug/0001.html
13:33:26 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
13:33:28 <RalphS> -- continues
13:33:42 <RalphS> Ben: it's important to have a validation story
13:33:48 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:33:49 <RalphS> -- continues
13:33:54 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
13:33:56 <RalphS> -- continues
13:34:01 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01]
13:34:04 <RalphS> -- continues
13:34:08 <RalphS> Ben: I've made some progress on this
13:34:14 <benadida> beginning of hGRDDL for XHTML1:
13:34:15 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-08-08-hgrddl-xhtml1
13:34:16 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:34:18 <RalphS> -- continues
13:34:48 <RalphS> Ben: in progress; feel free to track hgrddl-xhtml1
13:35:20 <RalphS> ... the nice thing about the DOM implementations are that some browers will fixup non-wellformed XHTML so that we may still be able to use it
13:35:30 <RalphS> ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:35:59 <RalphS> -- done
13:36:23 <RalphS> ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:36:28 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623/
13:36:44 <RalphS> Topic: Status review of CURIEs
13:36:53 <RalphS> (member-only URI)
13:37:09 <RalphS> Steven: currently in discussion in HTML WG
13:37:17 <RalphS> ... the shortname is not yet approved
13:37:52 <RalphS> ... Shane produced this editors' draft along with Mark
13:37:59 <RalphS> ... we need to decide whether to keep pushing this
13:38:25 <RalphS> [argh, this editors' draft claims to be a Working Draft]
13:38:36 <RalphS> Ben: should we reserve something for the anonymous namespace?
13:39:00 <RalphS> ... something for bnodes; unexported names
13:39:40 <RalphS> Mark: maybe there's something in N3 we could borrow for section 3?
13:41:08 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/03/28-editor-style.html Style for Group-internal Drafts
13:41:54 <RalphS> q+ to ask where MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623 lies in the HTMLWG agenda
13:42:26 <RalphS> Steven: the HTML WG shouldn't publish this draft until the RDF-in-XHTML task force agrees it's a good idea
13:43:00 <RalphS> ack me
13:43:00 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to ask where MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623 lies in the HTMLWG agenda
13:43:07 <RalphS> Steven: There are no objections within the HTML WG
13:43:30 <RalphS> ... Mark, I, and one other are the primary parties with RDF interest
13:44:07 <RalphS> Ralph: are CURIEs a solution for anything else the HTML WG is dealing with, or are they viewed as only a solution for RDFa?
13:44:12 <RalphS> Steven: more the latter
13:44:32 <RalphS> Mark: though CURIEs could also solve problems with RDF/XML, namely that QNames can't express all URIs
13:45:22 <RalphS> Ralph: it will be a heavy debate but I would like to see the discussion continue
13:46:06 <RalphS> Ben: the CURIE syntax may need more work but at the end of the day it is solving an important issue
13:46:21 <RalphS> ... I'd like to move forward with it while we're in the proposal stage
13:46:35 <RalphS> ... solves bnodes, solves URIs that can't be done with QNames
13:46:50 <RalphS> ... square bracket notation is familiar to some people
13:47:22 <RalphS> ... in 80% of the cases, CURIEs can be treated just like QNames
13:47:49 <RalphS> Mark: even if CURIEs were defined to be equal to QNames, it would be better to have that level of indirection so you can explain all the restrictions
13:48:11 <RalphS> Ben: we do have code that implements CURIE parsing and it seems to work
13:52:26 <RalphS> Steven: HTML WG has a face-to-face scheduled for 11 Sep.  Could plan to publish CURIE WD shortly after that f2f
13:52:48 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark add words about anonymous nodes to CURIE editors' draft
13:53:25 <RalphS> Topic: hGRDDL profile
13:53:25 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-08-08-hgrddl-xhtml1
13:54:18 <RalphS> Ralph: please claim authorship for hgrddl-xhtml1 :)
13:55:01 <RalphS> Ben: this is a nice place to build in some default behavior that is not appropriate to put into XHTML or RDFa
13:55:23 <RalphS> ... e.g. rel='next' is transformed to rel='xhtml:next'
13:56:00 <RalphS> ... I also included an example using the class= attribute
13:56:21 <RalphS> ... I'm hoping to get informed feedback from people by showing these examples
13:56:42 <RalphS> Mark: says "would become" -- actually, the class= attribute is removed
13:56:49 <RalphS> ... seems you'd want to show the N3 next
13:57:18 <RalphS> Ben: perhaps "has the transform"; what we want to see is people commenting on the transform
13:58:25 <RalphS> ... I'm suggesting that the decisions we make for class= and role= are part of the hgrddl-xhtml profile
13:59:05 <RalphS> Mark: I've been thinking of class= as analogous to the N3 syntax "<> a Foo".
13:59:25 <RalphS> ... though SVG does also use class=
14:00:01 <RalphS> Ben: GRDDL WG has its initial meeting tomorrow
14:00:27 <RalphS> ... I plan to continue working on this profile and write some code, to use as a basis for discussion
14:00:41 <RalphS> Mark: is it worth putting a real example in?
14:00:45 <RalphS> Ben: yes, absolutely
14:00:54 <RalphS> Mark: such as a vCard
14:01:19 <RalphS> Steven: we need to answer Dan's comment about following your nose
14:01:29 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben answer Dan's follow-your-nose comment
14:01:45 <RalphS> Steven: may require me to make some edits to the XHTML namespace document as well
14:01:52 <RalphS> Ben: I will mention that in my response
14:01:56 <RalphS> [adjourned]
14:01:57 <Zakim> -Mark_Birbeck
14:01:59 <Zakim> -Steven
14:04:58 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:05:00 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:05:01 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:05:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Steven, Mark_Birbeck, Ralph
14:05:06 <benadida> benadida has left #htmltf
14:05:54 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:05:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
14:51:17 <RalphS> zakim, bye
14:51:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf
14:51:21 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-actions.rdf :
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes [1]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-15-55
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [2]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-33-26
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [3]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-33-48
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [4]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-33-54
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01] [5]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-34-01
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [6]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-34-16
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [7]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-35-30
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [8]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-36-23
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark add words about anonymous nodes to CURIE editors' draft [9]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-52-48
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben answer Dan's follow-your-nose comment [10]
14:51:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T14-01-29