17:02:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:02:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-tagmem-irc
17:02:52 <Norm> zakim, this is tag
17:02:52 <Zakim> ok, Norm; that matches TAG_Weekly()12:30PM
17:03:09 <Zakim> +Norm
17:03:21 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:03:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], Raman, Ed_Rice, [INRIA], DOrchard, Norm
17:03:25 <Vincent> zakim, who is here?
17:03:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], Raman, Ed_Rice, [INRIA], DOrchard, Norm
17:03:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, EdR, dorchard, Vincent, raman, noah, Norm, ht_gone_holiday
17:03:38 <Norm> zakim, [ibmcambridge is noah
17:03:38 <Zakim> +noah; got it
17:04:19 <Vincent> Zakim, [INRIA is Vincent
17:04:19 <Zakim> +Vincent; got it
17:04:37 <dorchard> scribe: dorchard
17:05:30 <Norm> Meeting: TAG
17:05:30 <Norm> Scribe: Dave Orchard
17:05:30 <Norm> ScribeNick: dorchard
17:05:30 <Norm> Date: 18 July 2006
17:05:30 <Norm> Chair: Vincent
17:05:38 <EdR> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/addr/minutes.html
17:05:43 <EdR> (tips for taking minutes)
17:06:13 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/07/18-agenda.html
17:06:31 <dorchard> the previous link has
17:06:33 <dorchard> Decisions and Resolutions 
17:06:45 <dorchard> RESOLUTION: [precisely worded text] 
17:06:55 <noah> More hints on taking minutes: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
17:09:22 <dorchard> topic: future telcons and scribe
17:09:36 <dorchard> Henry to scribe once VQ convinces him
17:10:28 <dorchard> Topic: future telcons and scribe
17:10:37 <dorchard> Henry to scribe once VQ talks to him
17:10:43 <dorchard> Topic: minutes
17:10:52 <dorchard> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 27-Jun approved
17:11:24 <noah> The minutes we just approved for 27-June-2006 are at: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/06/27-minutes.html
17:11:58 <dorchard> Topic: Agenda
17:12:10 <dorchard> EdR: can't do passwords in the clear
17:12:31 <dorchard> Topic: generic resource
17:12:41 <EdR> I'll publish Passwords a week prior to the 8th meeting for public/tag comments.
17:12:48 <EdR> please put it on the agenda for the 8th.
17:12:52 <dorchard> TV: still need more to do
17:13:09 <dorchard> tvr: also addressing public comments
17:13:34 <dorchard> tvr: seems to be benignly interesting
17:14:48 <dorchard> vq: need new/more reviewers
17:15:01 <dorchard> vq: volunteers?
17:15:35 <dorchard> norm: I can review but won't be present on the 8th
17:15:54 <dorchard> do: no time
17:17:29 <dorchard> nm: date is important so reviewers know when doc is stable
17:18:10 <dorchard> tvr: pls review after Aug 8th
17:18:46 <dorchard> ACTION: TVR to publish new version of Generic Resources by Aug 8th
17:19:48 <dorchard> vq: after checking into cvs please send to public list
17:20:02 <dorchard> vq: any more comments
17:20:33 <dorchard> dbo: I think tvr is still working on my comments
17:20:40 <dorchard> tvr: I thought I got them, can you look again?
17:21:40 <dorchard> Topic: New and retrofitting new media types
17:21:56 <dorchard> vq: AB asked about using media types that aren't yet registered but used
17:23:33 <dorchard> dbo: think we shouldn't say anything against using unregistered media types
17:23:53 <Norm> q+ 
17:24:18 <dorchard> tvr: I was on voice browser wg, and the group was worried about getting LC comments
17:24:25 <dorchard> tvr: can also relate to TAG position
17:25:09 <dorchard> nm: is there  a written policy they should know about?
17:25:18 <dorchard> nobody knows of anything
17:25:45 <dorchard> nm: some worry about using unregistered media types
17:26:37 <dorchard> tvr: the widely deployed ones that aren't registered got widely deployed partly because they just went ahead and "did it"
17:27:08 <dorchard> nm: balance between saying there is a reason for registration
17:27:38 <dorchard> nm: reasons to reuse types
17:28:43 <dorchard> vq: ken laskey suggested something like this.
17:29:22 <dorchard> vq: then AB could use this and examine wrt w3c process
17:30:09 <dorchard> nm: not sure about how formal to be and even list in w3c process
17:30:25 <Norm> q-
17:30:36 <dorchard> vq: AB seems to ask for something informal, short email even
17:31:07 <Norm> Mostly I agree with Noah. I was going to point out that there's a distinction (in my mind) between a type being defined by a specification (where we could reasonably insist on registration) and a type used by a specification, where I think it would be sufficient for the spec to note that in a non-normative note.
17:31:32 <noah> Right, what I was trying to say was that it seems heavyweight to me to actually update the W3C process to tell everyone submitting a REC that they have to formally justify use of unregistered media types.  
17:32:51 <dorchard> ACTION: Noah to draft of something rough on this
17:33:58 <noah> ACTION 2=Noah to draft a very short email suggesting that in general its good practice to reference registered media types, but that we recognize that there may be good reasons for occasional exceptions.  Note is due 25 July 2006
17:35:35 <dorchard> vq: there was also some discussion from AB on changes to ecmascript and replace other media type
17:37:56 <dorchard> nw: on updated rfcs, specs need to do addendum to get new references
17:38:42 <dorchard> Topic: passwords in the clear
17:38:59 <dorchard> ACTION: EdR to publish updated passwords in the clear by Aug 8th
17:39:05 <dorchard> Topic: Versioning
17:39:52 <EdR> Vincent: Dave has updated the versioning document yesterday.
17:40:16 <EdR> Dave: I prefer to walk through and give an overview and then take detailed comments.
17:42:23 <EdR> DO: In general what I've done has expunged much of the xml
17:42:51 <EdR> DO: the sections on compatability, section 2 evolution is the same.
17:43:09 <EdR> DO: then I did some more work on principles.
17:44:43 <EdR> DO: I updated the bullet diagram based on our 'on the board' discussion at the f2f.
17:45:12 <EdR> DO: I've tried to move towards the model of defining compatability based on the definitions of these sets.
17:48:26 <EdR> DO: In section 1.6 I talk about components instead of elements because we need to talk about 'things', however I still need to talk about what a component is.
17:49:48 <EdR> DO: I've added in the notion to avoid the 'big bang' by offering multiple versions of the system, where either there are multiple versions or one version maps to another.
17:50:10 <EdR> do: this cant work in all cases (where new data fieldws are required) however.
17:51:58 <EdR> Noah: I think is largely improved, however I'm only 5 pages into it.
17:52:10 <EdR> Noah: In the sections I've read I think the foundations are much stronger.
17:52:51 <EdR> Noah: I feel something needs tuning up.. it seems your looking for a very crisp notion of forward and backward compatiblity but this tends to be a matter of degree.
17:53:43 <EdR> Noah: I think there are times where 99% of the instances have compatability but 1% would be in error.  I think people do this all the time...
17:56:27 <EdR> Noah: I'm trying to seperate the notion that nobody should be able to every come by an unidentified compatability.
17:56:43 <dorchard> Noah: one important point is whether software will make mistake in interpretation
18:00:58 <EdR> Noah: We want to talk about the case where we plan for evolution, and in some cases we want to lock it out.
18:02:34 <EdR> DO: I point out that if you want to enforce it, you need to point out a way to the users that you have a defined incompatability.
18:04:29 <EdR> Vincent: any other comments?
18:04:49 <EdR> Norm: I have not had a chance to read it, but would like to for next week.
18:04:58 <EdR> Ed: I havent yet either, but would like to.
18:05:25 <EdR> Vincent: We can review in more detail next week.
18:06:38 <EdR> Vincent: I've put it on the top of the agenda for next week.
18:06:44 <EdR> Vincent: any other topics?
18:06:55 <EdR> Vincent: meeting is adjourned.
18:07:05 <Zakim> -Raman
18:07:32 <Norm> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:07:37 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:07:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-tagmem-minutes.html Norm
18:07:59 <EdR> Zakim, list participants
18:07:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [IBMCambridge], Raman, Ed_Rice, [INRIA], DOrchard, Norm, noah, Vincent
18:08:21 <EdR> RRSagent, generate minutes
18:08:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-tagmem-minutes.html EdR
18:09:14 <noah> More hints on taking minutes: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
18:09:41 <Zakim> -Ed_Rice
18:15:12 <Zakim> -Norm
18:15:18 <Zakim> -Vincent
18:15:32 <Norm> dorchard, you and I were going to chat today, but today and tomorrow are chock-a-block full for me. How's Thursday?
18:33:03 <Norm> Norm has joined #tagmem
18:41:02 <Zakim> -noah
18:41:03 <Zakim> -DOrchard
18:41:04 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
18:41:05 <Zakim> Attendees were [IBMCambridge], Raman, Ed_Rice, [INRIA], DOrchard, Norm, noah, Vincent
20:09:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tagmem