IRC log of i18ncore on 2006-07-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-i18ncore-irc
13:34:18 [fsasaki]
meeting: i18n core working group
13:34:25 [fsasaki]
chair: Francois
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scribe: Felix
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scribeNick: fsasaki
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agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Jul/0019.html
14:01:58 [fyergeau]
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14:02:03 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
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+[IBM]
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14:03:24 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
14:03:24 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
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+Richard
14:03:28 [Zakim]
+Felix
14:03:58 [Zakim]
-Felix
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+Felix
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+Karunesh_Arora
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+[IPcaller]
14:10:15 [fyergeau]
zakim, [ is fyergeau
14:10:15 [Zakim]
+fyergeau; got it
14:11:36 [fsasaki]
Francois: last meetings minutes - any comments?
14:11:39 [fsasaki]
.. nothing
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topic: action items
14:12:09 [karuneshvijay]
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14:12:15 [fsasaki]
action: Everybody to look at input mode discussion (ONGOING)
14:12:31 [fsasaki]
Felix: I had a short look, what should we do now
14:12:58 [fsasaki]
Richard: It will come up in the XHTML review again
14:13:07 [fsasaki]
.. but other people might have input here
14:13:13 [fsasaki]
Francois: let's keep it ongoing
14:13:27 [fsasaki]
action: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback (PENDING)
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action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING)
14:14:14 [fsasaki]
action: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n (ONGOING)
14:14:18 [fsasaki]
Mary: working on that
14:14:37 [fsasaki]
... should I just start a second document on the policy?
14:14:47 [fsasaki]
Francois: Felix asked what remains in the first document
14:15:12 [fsasaki]
Mary: it would describe how the headers look like
14:15:37 [fsasaki]
Francois: why having two documents?
14:15:56 [fsasaki]
Mary: since you might implement the stuff with a different framework
14:17:07 [fsasaki]
Francois: it is more difficult to do more than one document
14:17:54 [fsasaki]
Felix: it might help the adoption to have a separate document, how the other policy domains do
14:19:42 [fsasaki]
.. Mary, could you edit both documents?
14:19:55 [fsasaki]
Mary: it depends, we have to see
14:20:17 [fsasaki]
Francois: could we start with one document, and see what happens
14:20:26 [fsasaki]
Mary: see if we need two documents
14:21:08 [fsasaki]
Franois: the actoin item is ongoing?
14:21:10 [fsasaki]
Mary: Yes
14:21:15 [fsasaki]
s/Franois/Francois/
14:21:28 [fsasaki]
action: Richard to create a wiki on "first letter" (DONE)
14:21:33 [fsasaki]
Richard: not a wiki, though
14:21:36 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/notes/firstletter.html
14:22:04 [fsasaki]
Richard: the current wikis are a pain to edit as they get long
14:23:06 [fsasaki]
.. I have a hybrid between a wiki and a mailing system
14:24:16 [fsasaki]
.. Karunesh, do you think that is useful?
14:24:44 [fsasaki]
Karunesh: The current way will also work
14:25:19 [fsasaki]
.. I will make some comments
14:25:28 [fsasaki]
Richard: sent it to www-international
14:25:47 [fsasaki]
Francois: very nice, but more work for Richard
14:26:33 [fsasaki]
action: Richard to review XHTML Basic 1.1 (ONGOING)
14:26:55 [fsasaki]
s/1.1/1.1 and XHTML Modularization/
14:27:14 [fsasaki]
topic: LTLI discussion
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Francois: Mark is not here
14:27:29 [fsasaki]
Felix: I'll ping him again
14:28:39 [fsasaki]
Francois: we cannot go on without Mark
14:29:12 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to ping Mark on LTLI discussion
14:30:11 [fsasaki]
Felix: how about matching - should LTLI discuss matching, not normatively?
14:30:41 [fsasaki]
Richard: if it is not normative, it should not be in LTLI
14:30:49 [fsasaki]
Felix: it was just brought up a while ago
14:31:15 [fsasaki]
Francois: LTLI could identify use cases for matching on the web
14:31:22 [fsasaki]
.. that is more BP than normative spec
14:31:41 [fsasaki]
Richard: not sure
14:31:47 [fsasaki]
.. this could slow things down for LTLI
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.. this could slow things down
14:32:07 [fsasaki]
Francois: that's a worthy point
14:33:38 [fsasaki]
Felix: summary: people at the call currently think explanatory material on matching should not be on LTLI
14:34:42 [fsasaki]
Francois: that's all for this week
14:34:51 [fsasaki]
topic: ws i18n progress
14:35:07 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-ws-i18n-20050914/
14:35:34 [Zakim]
+??P11
14:35:43 [fsasaki]
Francois: already handled during action items
14:36:14 [fsasaki]
topic: LTLI (now with Mark)
14:36:51 [fyergeau]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006JulSep/0004.html
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14:41:05 [fsasaki]
Francois: discussion state: we need use cases for LTLI
14:41:35 [fsasaki]
Francois describes a use case which uses the browsers language
14:41:53 [fsasaki]
Richard: we agreed that xml:lang will not be used for local, right?
14:41:55 [fsasaki]
Mark: no
14:42:17 [fsasaki]
.. you could either deny xml:lang
14:42:35 [fsasaki]
.. or is it as the core of locale, and get other information from somewhere else
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.. the latter seems to be more practical
14:43:02 [fsasaki]
.. "locale" has no well established meaning like language
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.. e.g. for some people, locale definitions requires at least three countries
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.. e.g. the nationality of a user, the place of transaction, the place of the user etc.
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.. "locale" is an amorphous set of preferences
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.. I think, the core part is language
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.. so people would add other fields for their requirements
14:45:06 [fsasaki]
Richard: should we say "a core for locale"
14:45:13 [fsasaki]
.. or "the key indicator"?
14:45:15 [fsasaki]
Francois: both
14:45:30 [fsasaki]
.. it is core, but you can use it also as an indication
14:45:42 [fsasaki]
Richard: that is: the other aspects of the locale
14:45:54 [fsasaki]
Mark: take a look at time zone
14:46:36 [fsasaki]
Francois: what is the use case for time zone on the web?
14:46:46 [fsasaki]
.. to give time indications in the users time zone?
14:46:51 [fsasaki]
Mark: yes
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.. e.g. for news to say "this happened three hours ago" or "two o'clock"
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.. sometimes you don't do that
14:47:38 [fsasaki]
Francois: time zone is the most independent from language, so its outside the core
14:47:47 [fsasaki]
.. the same holds for currency
14:48:00 [fsasaki]
s/../Mark:/
14:48:15 [fsasaki]
Francois: for most languages you can make a good guess
14:48:30 [fsasaki]
Richard: what is "a locale"?
14:48:49 [fsasaki]
Francois: we already agreed that it depends on the application
14:49:13 [fsasaki]
Richard: so the locale is not something you can label?
14:49:24 [fsasaki]
Mark: the notion of locale is very amorphous
14:50:44 [fsasaki]
Francois: you want locale identifiers so that a recipient is able to do s.t. with it
14:51:03 [fsasaki]
.. it is a collective thing
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.. it applies to a group of people
14:51:41 [fsasaki]
Richard: one could say "a locale groups together types of information and values that defines the interaction in a particular situation"
14:51:50 [fsasaki]
.. but we refer to the usage of a particular
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.. label
14:52:58 [fsasaki]
Francois: we need to distingush locale identifiers versus their meaning in different contexts
14:53:28 [fsasaki]
Felix: we said two weeks ago that locale is always related to processes (interactions), whereas language is kind of static
14:53:41 [fsasaki]
Richard: I wanted to say "xml:lang provides a component of the locale information"
14:54:31 [fsasaki]
Mark: in most cases the core of the locale is provided by 3066
14:54:39 [fsasaki]
.. if you look at Java
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.. posix adds a charset to the notion of locale
14:54:52 [fsasaki]
.. but the core is really the language
14:55:20 [fsasaki]
.. there is variance in the industry
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.. but not for the core of locale
14:55:40 [fsasaki]
Richard: "the core of the locale is given by RFC 3066bis"
14:56:02 [fsasaki]
.. that is: locale is a larger thing, and language is only a part of it
14:56:16 [fsasaki]
.. as you think about locale identification
14:56:30 [fsasaki]
Mark: I don't think if we should be too precise in the language
14:56:40 [fsasaki]
.. that is: saying that xml:lang provides the core of the locale
14:56:47 [fsasaki]
.. and for many applications that is sufficient
14:57:16 [fsasaki]
.. you just want to cover the 99% cases
14:57:43 [fsasaki]
Richard: I liked the way Mark phrased it
14:58:05 [fsasaki]
Francois: posix locale is a problem
14:59:39 [fsasaki]
.. you may need various ISO standards . We have to make sure that this work
15:01:05 [fsasaki]
[discussion on posix versus other locale identifiers between Mark and Francois]
15:01:22 [fsasaki]
Mark: if you specify the country
15:02:28 [Zakim]
-Mark
15:02:34 [fsasaki]
.. you need additional information
15:02:50 [fsasaki]
Richard: could someone summarize where we are now?
15:03:02 [fsasaki]
Francois: I could try, but I would be biased
15:03:33 [fsasaki]
Richard: we could set up a wiki
15:05:30 [fsasaki]
action: Richard to create a wiki for the LTLI discussion, Francois to make a summary of the current discussion
15:05:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:05:56 [fsasaki]
topic: other business
15:06:06 [Zakim]
-fyergeau
15:06:06 [fsasaki]
Felix: charmod, I'll bring it up on the mailing list
15:06:08 [Zakim]
-Mary
15:06:09 [Zakim]
-Richard
15:06:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:06:13 [Zakim]
-Felix
15:06:23 [Zakim]
-Karunesh
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I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were [IBM], Richard, Felix, Mary, Vijay, [IPcaller], fyergeau, Mark
15:07:16 [fsasaki]
present: Felix, Francois, Karunesh, Mark, Richard, Vijay
15:07:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
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