13:46:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18ncore
13:46:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/06/27-i18ncore-irc
13:46:19 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n core working group
13:46:24 <fsasaki> chair: Francois
13:46:27 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
13:46:33 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
13:46:57 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Jun/0015.html
13:59:19 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
13:59:26 <Zakim> +[IBM]
13:59:38 <Zakim> +Felix
14:00:31 <fyergeau> fyergeau has joined #i18ncore
14:00:42 <fyergeau> Hi Felix
14:00:46 <fsasaki> Hi Francois
14:01:00 <fyergeau> I'm stuck in another meeting that's running late
14:01:07 <fyergeau> Can't join now
14:01:19 <fyergeau> I'll join ASAP
14:01:24 <fsasaki> o.k. We are still waiting for Mark who wanted to join today
14:02:46 <Zakim> +Karunesh_Arora
14:02:48 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18ncore
14:03:02 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
14:03:02 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:03:04 <Zakim> +Richard
14:03:25 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
14:03:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mary, Felix, Karunesh_Arora, Richard
14:03:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, fyergeau, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:03:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:04:14 <r12a> zakim, [IPcaller] is Mark
14:04:14 <Zakim> sorry, r12a, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
14:04:39 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
14:04:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mary, Felix, Karunesh_Arora, Richard, Mark
14:04:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, fyergeau, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:04:52 <r12a> zakim, mute richard
14:04:52 <Zakim> Richard should now be muted
14:07:23 <mdavis> mdavis has joined #i18ncore
14:07:55 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Jun/0015.html
14:08:21 <karora> karora has joined #i18Ncore
14:08:23 <fsasaki> wcag 2.0 review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Jun/0016.html
14:08:55 <r12a> zakim, unmute richard
14:08:55 <Zakim> Richard should no longer be muted
14:09:23 <fsasaki> topic: LTLI progress
14:09:28 <fsasaki> input mail from Mark: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006AprJun/0073.html
14:09:56 <fsasaki> Mark: document is doing good progress. But there is a big choice necessary
14:10:42 <fsasaki> .. there are two possible views on language versus locale: option A) and B), described in the mail
14:11:17 <fsasaki> .. currently, the document does not distingush cleanly between these two
14:11:32 <fsasaki> .. some other comments in the mail:
14:11:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:11:40 <fyergeau> zakim, [ is fyergeau
14:11:40 <Zakim> +fyergeau; got it
14:12:02 <fsasaki> .. there are two paragraphs which should be combined
14:12:12 <fsasaki> .. replace "Locale Values" with "Locale Identifiers" in general
14:12:41 <fsasaki> .. a proposal for a change from the scope section to a different section
14:13:38 <fsasaki> .. these are all smaller issues, the main issue is A) versus B)
14:14:04 <fsasaki> Francois: we discussed A) versus B) briefly two weeks ago
14:14:18 <fsasaki> .. B) would be my preference
14:14:24 <fsasaki> Mark: Mine as well
14:14:30 <fsasaki> .. it reflects reality
14:14:37 <fsasaki> Richard: are there other reasons?
14:14:46 <fsasaki> Mark: it is general practice for people to do that
14:15:37 <fsasaki> .. RFC 3066bis helps you to distinguish linguistic information, which is important
14:15:46 <fsasaki> .. but what a locale is depends very much on the application(s)
14:16:05 <fsasaki> .. e.g. for pay pale other things are important than on airline flights
14:16:29 <fsasaki> .. that is: saying RFC 3066bis is the core, with additional information as necessary
14:17:21 <fsasaki> Felix: what would be the value of saying "RFC 3066bis in the core"?
14:17:32 <fsasaki> Mark: there is a lot of value
14:17:45 <fsasaki> .. there is no standard meaning for locale
14:18:52 <fsasaki> Felix: I am wondering how we should use "musts" or "shoulds"?
14:19:03 <fsasaki> Mark: We could phrase it as best practices
14:19:11 <fsasaki> Richard: Some questions:
14:19:26 <fsasaki> .. we have xml:lang, that people should use to identify the language. Correct?
14:19:31 <fsasaki> Mark: yes.
14:19:53 <fsasaki> Richard: so if we specify a locale, we would not use xml:lang?
14:20:10 <fsasaki> Mark: I disagree. B) would say "you can also interpret that as a locale"
14:20:18 <fsasaki> .. the same thing for "accept-language" in HTTP
14:20:37 <fsasaki> .. or in other circumstances with RFC 3066bis identifiers
14:20:52 <fsasaki> .. that is: use this as a locale, and supplement it with other information
14:21:01 <fsasaki> Richard: I would be happier if we would say:
14:21:26 <fsasaki> .. "In the absence of locale information, you make statements relying on xml:lang"
14:21:45 <fsasaki> .. the background: we already have problems convincing people using xml:lang
14:21:55 <fsasaki> Mark: People take the information they have
14:22:04 <fsasaki> .. we could say: If you have other locale information
14:22:30 <fsasaki> .. e.g. an xml element which has "country ???" as a seperate element in an XML document
14:22:53 <fsasaki> .. if we had also had country of prinicipal residents: we would have two fields, which would contribute what the users locale is
14:23:00 <fsasaki> .. both going beyond what xml:lang states
14:23:12 <fsasaki> Francois: xml:lang and the users locale are orthogonal
14:23:34 <fsasaki> .. xml:lang designates the language (perhaps by extension the locale) of the content
14:23:40 <fsasaki> .. but not the users locale
14:23:42 <fsasaki> Mark: rihg
14:23:47 <fsasaki> s/rihg/right/
14:24:13 <fsasaki> Francois: so xml:lang should not be used for the users locale
14:24:32 <fsasaki> Richard: we had discussion with the voice browser wg
14:24:47 <fsasaki> .. we concluded: xml:lang indicates indicates the language of the document
14:25:02 <fsasaki> .. the language of the voice browser processer is different
14:25:18 <fsasaki> .. Addison said similar things in an article a while ago
14:25:39 <fsasaki> Mark: The document represents information from or to a user
14:25:56 <fsasaki> .. the language is the language you want to communicate
14:26:31 <fsasaki> .. the users locale is a slight abstraction
14:26:54 <fsasaki> Richard: Given a french page, for a user from the UK, the page is still in French
14:27:05 <fsasaki> Mark: the users locale in common computer practice is:
14:27:18 <fsasaki> .. what is the preferrred locale to communicate some information to the user
14:27:43 <fsasaki> .. there is a little reliable way to do that
14:28:09 <fsasaki> .. you can use a best guess (heuristics) and let the other person correct
14:29:10 <fsasaki> Felix: that is: if there is a process, I have to think about the locale?
14:29:14 <fsasaki> Mark: yes
14:29:24 <fsasaki> .. e.g. if I construct AJAX 
14:29:31 <fsasaki> .. it is directly directed with a process
14:29:51 <fsasaki> .. if I have a static document, it uses a language identifier
14:30:11 <fsasaki> .. we could say: a language identifier can be interpreted as a locale identifier where it makes sense
14:30:32 <fsasaki> .. people need to be prepared to supplement the information in other fields
14:30:42 <fsasaki> .. you could give the country examples given above
14:31:14 <fsasaki> Francois: as for the "additional information": Mark, have you any ideas what it should be?
14:31:38 <fsasaki> Mark: Trying to extend with the examples I have choosen above
14:31:50 <fsasaki> .. that would be a mistake, it would overload the mechanism too much
14:32:02 <fsasaki> .. extensions would be more natural "extensions"
14:32:12 <fsasaki> .. in CLDR we have such extensions
14:32:36 <fsasaki> .. there is a gray area what is meant by a language if you go into e.g. sorting
14:32:58 <fsasaki> .. I would recommend to have RFC 3066bis extensions limited 
14:33:03 <fsasaki> .. related to language
14:33:16 <fsasaki> Francois: that matches the philosophy of RFC 3066bis
14:33:41 <fsasaki> .. but what if we invent a mechanism for locale specific stuff?
14:33:51 <fsasaki> Mark: we actually do that in CLDR
14:34:05 <fsasaki> .. there are two pieces of information: the default currency and default timezone
14:34:11 <fsasaki> .. whose are not language related
14:34:25 <fsasaki> .. but we don't really encourage that
14:34:49 <fsasaki> s/but we don't really encourage that/other fields are possible, but we don't really encourage that/
14:35:03 <fsasaki> .. you may have a mechanism for encapsulating RFC 3066bis
14:35:32 <fsasaki> .. one problem is that: RFC 3066bis cannot be truncated
14:36:01 <fsasaki> .. if you pack too much information into locale, that is not an issue e.g. in XML, but maybe in other protocols
14:36:11 <fsasaki> Richard: another clarification question:
14:36:28 <fsasaki> .. if people want to have their own way of conveining locale information
14:36:34 <fsasaki> .. e.g. a Java identifier
14:36:46 <fsasaki> .. should we tell them to use RFC 3066bis?
14:37:25 <fsasaki> Mark: We tell people to ignore the difference between "hyphen" and "underscore" in such cases
14:37:41 <fsasaki> .. that is: you accept a slightly wider range than RFC 3066bis
14:37:51 <fsasaki> .. but we should discuss this with Addison
14:38:18 <fsasaki> .. but I also think: We should *not* differ in the general role of language identifiers
14:39:06 <fsasaki> Felix: question: who is convinced about A or B?
14:39:25 <fsasaki> Richard: not yet convinced
14:40:39 <fsasaki> Felix: we could publish a new draft and allow for public feedback?
14:41:05 <fsasaki> Mark: I will think about further steps
14:41:17 <fsasaki> Richard: It might be helpful to have some usecases outlined
14:41:23 <fsasaki> .. it helps to ground the discussion
14:42:56 <fsasaki> Felix: we will continue discussion on this in three weeks
14:43:08 <fsasaki> topic: WCAG 2.0 review
14:43:11 <Zakim> -Mark
14:43:33 <fsasaki> Richard: main thing: I am saying to them: Why are you talking about text direction at all?
14:43:43 <fsasaki> .. this is not accessibility specific
14:44:19 <fsasaki> .. they have a lot of material about text direction, not in the guidelines themselves
14:44:26 <fsasaki> .. but in the two other documents
14:44:54 <fsasaki> .. I don't see why they need to comment about that
14:45:31 <fsasaki> .. if they keep text direction, I will make double of comments
14:45:44 <fsasaki> Felix: how abou Ruby?
14:45:57 <fsasaki> Richard: That has accessibility aspects in some circumstances
14:46:32 <fsasaki> .. as for directionality: I can't see why that is an accessibility issue
14:47:51 <fsasaki> Felix: I am fine with the proposal to take directionality out of the document
14:48:11 <fsasaki> Mary: Did they say why it is specific to accessibility?
14:48:36 <r12a> "The intent of this success criterion is to enable a user agent to provide an alternative presentation of content while preserving the reading order needed to perceive meaning. It is important that it be possible to programmatically determine at least one sequence of the content that makes sense."
14:51:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/06/27-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
14:52:34 <r12a> "User agents, including speech-enabled as well as graphical applications, may be unable to present text correctly unless the language and direction of the text are identified; while these may be minor problems for most users, they can be enormous barriers for users with disabilities"
14:52:48 <fsasaki> Richard: that is the clearest justification I could found
14:53:00 <fsasaki> .. but that is not adequate for me
14:54:27 <fsasaki> .. let me make the comments and see how they react
14:54:40 <fsasaki> Mary: o.k.
14:54:59 <fsasaki> Richard: I saw Felix's comments on my comments, thanks. Any other comments?
14:55:26 <fsasaki> Francois: I scanned through the comments, I'm fine with them
14:55:36 <fsasaki> .. looks like a very good review
14:56:12 <fsasaki> .. so Richard can send out the comments
14:57:05 <fsasaki> topic: other business?
14:57:14 <fsasaki> Mary: next meeting I'll be away - 4th of July
14:58:15 <karora> Richard Felix: Can you stay on phone  for a while after meeting
14:58:25 <r12a> yes
14:58:46 <Zakim> -Mary
14:58:47 <Zakim> -fyergeau
14:59:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/06/27-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:07:04 <Zakim> -Richard
15:07:07 <Zakim> -Karunesh_Arora
15:07:10 <fsasaki> present: Felix, Francois, Mark (for the LTLI discussion) , Mary, Richard, Vijay
15:07:10 <Zakim> -Felix
15:07:11 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:07:12 <Zakim> Attendees were [IBM], Felix, Mary, Karunesh_Arora, Richard, [IPcaller], Mark, fyergeau
15:07:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/06/27-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:09:26 <karora> \quit
15:13:53 <r12a> r12a has left #i18ncore
15:40:44 <mdavis> mdavis has joined #i18ncore
16:29:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18ncore
17:56:15 <fyergeau_> fyergeau_ has joined #i18ncore