14:40:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:40:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/30-rif-irc
14:40:59 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:42:51 <DanC> I saw this in the minutes last week: "Chris: The chairs have polled the group about the Extensible Design: it should now be used as a working syntax." Is that a WG decision?
14:43:41 <ChrisW> my mind is a blank, DanC
14:44:00 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:44:11 <DanC> PFPS since sent a different proposal, and your response suggested it's in order, which suggests that's _not_ a WG decision.
14:44:57 <DanC> I'd like to see more discussion of how the proposals meet the requirements (and none at all about the meaning of 'unitary' ;-)
14:45:47 <ChrisW> yes, we need requirements, that will be our focus today and at the f2f
14:46:36 <ChrisW> We did not make a decision to use the syntax of the extensible design in RIF, just to begin comparing it to other systems
14:47:00 <DanC> so you did make a decision?
14:47:36 <ChrisW> your insistence on the word "decision" has me being cautious, perhaps overly so
14:48:04 <ChrisW> the context of the "poll" was specifically that it was not a vote 
14:48:10 <DanC> that makes sense...
14:48:17 <ChrisW> about whether to accept the extensible design
14:48:34 <ChrisW> we just wanted people to start using it as a strawman to see what (if anything is needed)
14:48:59 <Francois> Francois has joined #rif
14:49:15 <DanC> I learned the word "decision" from Jon Bosak; I joined some XML WG telcons after not attending them for months, and tried to discuss some topics, and they said "we've already made that Decision; unless you have new information, it's out of order to discuss it." It's an alternative to what Bosak observed as "last-man-standing consensus" in the IETF.
14:49:50 <ChrisW> a useful idea
14:52:34 <DanC> formally, W3C process only requires that a WG make 1 decision: to go to last call.
14:52:56 <DanC> but in my experience, it's useful to make a WG decision around each requirement and to close each issue.
14:53:25 <ChrisW> re: requirements, that is the plan
14:54:12 <PhilippeB> PhilippeB has joined #rif
14:54:14 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
14:55:17 <csma> csma has joined #rif
14:56:38 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
14:56:39 <igor> igor has joined #rif
14:57:16 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:57:24 <Zakim> +??P4
14:57:28 <Zakim> +??P5
14:57:31 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
14:57:33 <Zakim> +Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P5)
14:57:36 <PhilippeB> Zakim, mute me
14:57:36 <Zakim> Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
14:57:37 <Zakim> +??P7
14:57:41 <csma> zakim, ??P4 is me
14:57:41 <Zakim> +csma; got it
14:58:00 <Zakim> -??P7
14:58:13 <Zakim> + +1.503.317.aaaa
14:58:20 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
14:58:38 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
14:59:01 <josb> josb has joined #rif
14:59:03 <Zakim> +??P3
14:59:10 <Zakim> +David_Hirtle
14:59:13 <Zakim> +??P1
14:59:16 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P1)
14:59:26 <Zakim> +??P0
14:59:32 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
14:59:47 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
14:59:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:58 <Allen> zakim, mute me
14:59:58 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
14:59:58 <ChrisW> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:00:00 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:00:01 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:00:21 <Zakim> +PaulaP
15:00:26 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:00:26 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:00:33 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:00:47 <Zakim> +??P8
15:01:02 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:02 <Francois>  zakim ??P8 is me.
15:01:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:01:23 <sandro> Francois,  you need the comma after "Zakim", I'm afraid.
15:01:27 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:01:29 <Francois> zakim, ??P8 is me.
15:01:29 <Zakim> +Francois; got it
15:01:38 <Francois> zakim, mute me.
15:01:38 <Zakim> Francois should now be muted
15:01:44 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #rif
15:01:49 <csma> ack ??P3
15:01:49 <sandro> ack ??P3
15:02:02 <csma> zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Philippe_Bonnard (muted), +1.503.317.aaaa, ??P3, David_Hirtle, Dave_Reynolds (muted), josb (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), ChrisW, Harold, PaulaP (muted),
15:02:05 <Zakim> ... Mike_Dean, Francois (muted), Sandro
15:02:22 <Hassan> Zakim, ??P3 is me
15:02:22 <Zakim> +Hassan; got it
15:02:36 <csma> zakim, aaaa is Gary
15:02:36 <Zakim> +Gary; got it
15:02:47 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:02:57 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:03:05 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:03:08 <Zakim> +DanC
15:03:27 <JosDeRoo> JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:04:14 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
15:04:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:23 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:04:27 <Zakim> -[IBM]
15:04:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, please mute me
15:04:40 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:04:48 <Darko> Darko has joined #rif
15:04:53 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #rif
15:04:55 <johnhall> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:04:55 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:05:02 <Zakim> +??P36
15:05:03 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:05:04 <johnhall> zakim,mute me
15:05:04 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:05:11 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:05:13 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (41%), ChrisW (11%), johnhall (10%)
15:05:19 <Zakim> +??P34
15:05:25 <Zakim> +??P37
15:05:25 <Darko> Zakim, P36 is me
15:05:26 <Zakim> sorry, Darko, I do not recognize a party named 'P36'
15:05:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:45 <Hassan> ok ...
15:05:56 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:06:00 <Darko> Zakim, p34 is me
15:06:00 <Zakim> sorry, Darko, I do not recognize a party named 'p34'
15:06:01 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:06:04 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is Stella_Mitchell
15:06:04 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell; got it
15:06:09 <csma> scribenick: hassan
15:06:15 <AxelPolleres> I could have scribed... sorry, some seconds late
15:06:32 <JosDeRoo> Zakim, ??P34 is me
15:06:32 <Zakim> +JosDeRoo; got it
15:06:34 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
15:06:42 <Hassan> No weekly meeting next week because of F2F3
15:06:51 <Darko> Zakim, ??P36 is Darko
15:06:51 <Zakim> +Darko; got it
15:06:54 <Zakim> +??P41
15:06:57 <JosDeRoo> \me Zakim, mute me
15:06:58 <StellaMitchell> zakim, Stella_Mitchell is StellaMitchell
15:06:58 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:06:59 <Zakim> +??P43
15:07:04 <AlexKozlenkov> Zakim, ??P41 is me
15:07:04 <Zakim> +AlexKozlenkov; got it
15:07:14 <JosDeRoo> Zakim, mute me
15:07:14 <Zakim> JosDeRoo should now be muted
15:07:16 <AlexKozlenkov> Zakim, mute me
15:07:16 <Zakim> AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:07:21 <Zakim> +Igor_Mozetic
15:07:27 <igor> zkaim, mute me
15:07:42 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, P43 is me
15:07:42 <Zakim> sorry, FrankMcCabe, I do not recognize a party named 'P43'
15:07:58 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, ??P43 is me
15:07:58 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:08:17 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, who is on the call
15:08:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', FrankMcCabe
15:08:25 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, who is on the phone
15:08:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', FrankMcCabe
15:08:25 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/att-0242/rif-minutes-2006-05-23.html draft minutes 23 May
15:08:47 <sandro> FrankMcCabe, you need a trailing question mark for Zakim.
15:08:55 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Gary, Hassan, David_Hirtle, Dave_Reynolds (muted), josb (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), ChrisW, Harold, PaulaP (muted),
15:08:58 <Zakim> ... Mike_Dean, Francois (muted), Sandro, DanC (muted), johnhall (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), Darko, JosDeRoo (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), MarkusK (muted), StellaMitchell
15:09:01 <Zakim> ... (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), FrankMcCabe, Igor_Mozetic
15:09:27 <SaidTabet> SaidTabet has joined #RIF
15:10:11 <Darko> Zakim, mute me
15:10:11 <Zakim> Darko should now be muted
15:10:15 <DanC> how about noting the correction in today's minutes, right here?
15:10:17 <Hassan> Christian finds last week's minutes ambiguous about "missing features of the XML elements of RifRaf"
15:10:32 <Zakim> +??P45
15:10:41 <SaidTabet> zakim, +??P45 is me
15:10:41 <Zakim> sorry, SaidTabet, I do not recognize a party named '+??P45'
15:10:49 <Hassan> CSMA wishes to clarifies the minutes regarding this before accepting them
15:10:49 <SaidTabet> zakim, ??P45 is me
15:10:49 <Zakim> +SaidTabet; got it
15:10:54 <Zakim> -Igor_Mozetic
15:10:56 <SaidTabet> zakim, mute me
15:10:56 <Zakim> SaidTabet should now be muted
15:10:59 <Hassan> Amendments to the minutes?
15:11:07 <Hassan> None voiced!
15:11:18 <Hassan> Action reviews for F2F3?
15:11:50 <DanC> er... so is that done? "Check hotel reservation for F2F3"
15:11:58 <Hassan> Update on F2F3 - review the draft agenda for the meeting
15:12:09 <SaidTabet> Christian: will there be a telecon access for those of us who are not traveling to the F2F?
15:12:18 <DanC> q+
15:12:34 <DanC> q+ to ask that RAF and DesignConstraints sessions be merged
15:12:34 <csma> ack danc
15:12:35 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:12:36 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask that RAF and DesignConstraints sessions be merged
15:12:37 <Hassan> CSMA: ask for feedback on the contents of the F2F3 agenda
15:13:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:13:42 <igor> zakim, IPcaller is me\
15:13:42 <Zakim> +me\; got it
15:13:49 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:13:49 <Hassan> DanC: suggests merging RIFRAF session and Requirements session
15:14:00 <igor> zakim, mute me
15:14:00 <Zakim> sorry, igor, I do not see a party named 'igor'
15:14:41 <igor> igor has joined #rif
15:15:28 <Hassan> DanC: haven't seen group discussion of RIFRAF
15:15:28 <Hassan> Sandro: must distiguish requirements for systems and those specific for interchange
15:15:42 <Harold> a+
15:15:46 <Harold> q+
15:16:09 <Hassan> ChrisW: RIFRAF is a set of criteria to distinguish among rule systems to be classified
15:16:24 <igor> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:16:24 <Zakim> sorry, igor, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
15:16:27 <ChrisW> q?
15:16:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:16:38 <MalaMehrotra> MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:16:47 <Zakim> -igor
15:16:50 <MichaelKifer> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:16:50 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:16:53 <Hassan> CSMA: Need to specify which part of RIFRAF is specific to interchange and what is not
15:16:57 <csma> ack axel
15:17:00 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:17:00 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:17:24 <AxelPolleres> might be the wrong line
15:17:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:17:32 <AxelPolleres> I type it:
15:17:32 <csma> ack harold
15:17:40 <igor> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:17:40 <Zakim> +igor; got it
15:17:47 <igor> zakim, mute me
15:17:47 <Zakim> igor should now be muted
15:17:53 <ChrisW> ok, axel, hold on a moment
15:18:01 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:18:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Gary, Hassan, David_Hirtle, Dave_Reynolds (muted), josb (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), ChrisW, Harold, PaulaP (muted),
15:18:05 <Zakim> ... Mike_Dean, Francois (muted), Sandro, DanC, johnhall (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), Darko (muted), JosDeRoo (muted), AxelPolleres, MarkusK (muted), StellaMitchell (muted),
15:18:08 <Zakim> ... Deborah_Nichols (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), FrankMcCabe, SaidTabet (muted), MichaelKifer (muted), igor (muted)
15:18:08 <Hassan> Harold: the RAF follows several dimensions - being a requirement depends on the dimension
15:18:09 <AxelPolleres> small issue: i'd kindly ask th chairs to answer my technical question on phone connectivity for f2f3.
15:18:15 <DanC> to clarify, "haven't seen group discussion of RIFRAF", I have seen very nice evaluation of systems vs. RIFRAF, but the RIFRAF itself seems to be treated just as fact, not as a list of candidate requirements.
15:18:32 <Zakim> +Mala
15:18:36 <AxelPolleres> I typed the issue on the IRC. 
15:19:30 <csma> q?
15:19:41 <Hassan> DanC: RAF seems to be "facts" - there has not been a discussion about whether, e.g., "function free" is relevant
15:20:07 <JosDeRoo> Axel, you probably took my name while doing Zakim, P37 is me
15:20:13 <JosDeRoo> ?
15:21:09 <csma> q?
15:21:09 <ChrisW> q?
15:21:44 <DanC> (ok, I hear that that the RIFRAF stuff _is_ a list of candidate requirements, in a way. good to know.)
15:22:19 <Hassan> Gary Hall: Need to see better adequacy of the classification criteria to special cases like PR's
15:22:29 <AxelPolleres> My issue again [F2F3]: I wrote a mail to the chairs concerning phone connectivity at F2F3, which I would kindly ask them to answer. Thanks (no need to discuss this in the phone conf)
15:23:16 <Hassan> CSMA: need to relate Requirements with RIFRAF
15:23:37 <AxelPolleres> I will try again to find out the number. let's discuss further per mail
15:24:16 <Hassan> Sandro: regarding F2F3 connectivity and dialups - need to find a means (bring VOIP box?)
15:24:18 <AxelPolleres> We will find a solution.
15:24:34 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3
15:25:04 <AxelPolleres> Paula and me.
15:25:20 <Hassan> CSMA: any more comments on F2F3 agenda?
15:25:31 <Hassan> None - move on to F2F4
15:25:59 <PaulaP> Contact for F2F3: Axel Polleres and Paula-Lavinia Patranjan
15:26:16 <Hassan> PFPS (not attending today) sent email web-registration information using credit cards
15:27:09 <Hassan> CSMA: any more comments on F2F4 meeting?
15:27:18 <Hassan> CrisW: let's move on
15:27:44 <Hassan> CSAM Next item on the agenda: liaisons?
15:28:02 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
15:28:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Gary, Hassan, David_Hirtle, Dave_Reynolds (muted), josb (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), ChrisW, Harold, PaulaP (muted),
15:28:06 <Zakim> ... Mike_Dean, Francois (muted), Sandro, DanC, johnhall (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), Darko (muted), JosDeRoo (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), MarkusK (muted), StellaMitchell
15:28:10 <Zakim> ... (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), FrankMcCabe, SaidTabet (muted), MichaelKifer (muted), igor (muted), Mala
15:28:11 <Hassan> Action on Jos de Roo?
15:28:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see MalaMehrotra, igor, MichaelKifer, SaidTabet, Deborah_Nichols, StellaMitchell, MarkusK, Darko, AlexKozlenkov, JosDeRoo, johnhall, AxelPolleres, Hassan, DavidHirtle,
15:28:17 <Zakim> ... josb, Allen, DaveReynolds, mdean, csma, PaulaP, PhilippeB, Francois, FrankMcCabe, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, DanC, Harold, sandro, Keep
15:28:19 <csma> ack josd
15:28:27 <PaulV> PaulV has joined #rif
15:28:45 <csma> ack josderoo
15:28:52 <JosDeRoo> I think Axel and JosDeRoo have switched lines...
15:29:27 <Hassan> Axel: please press 41#
15:29:38 <csma> ack axel
15:30:33 <Hassan> Jos de Roo: finished his action regarding DAWG
15:31:20 <Hassan> Need a liasion for SPARQL WG (since Jos de Roo is quitting his participation)
15:31:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:31:50 <Hassan> ChrisW: Do we need such a close relationship?
15:32:09 <ChrisW> ^ChrisW^DanC^
15:32:15 <Hassan> CSMA: close the action - we'll decide what we need when the time comes
15:32:29 <Hassan> Liaison with Common Logic?
15:32:38 <Hassan> Nothing to report...
15:32:53 <Hassan> Liaison with PRR - Paul Vincent?
15:33:14 <Hassan> PaulVincent : ok to give an update on PRR to this WG
15:33:20 <johnhall> zakim, unmute me
15:33:20 <Zakim> johnhall should no longer be muted
15:33:24 <DanC> Zakim, JosDeRoo is AxelP
15:33:24 <Zakim> +AxelP; got it
15:33:30 <Hassan> Liaison with SBVR?
15:33:35 <DanC> Zakim, AxelPolleres is JosD
15:33:35 <Zakim> +JosD; got it
15:34:00 <Zakim> -Gary
15:34:01 <DanC> Zakim, JosD is JosDeRoo 
15:34:01 <Zakim> +JosDeRoo; got it
15:34:01 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:34:01 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:34:05 <Hassan> John : Telcon tomorrow - will report what transpires
15:34:08 <Hassan> ODM?
15:34:09 <DanC> Zakim, AxelP is AxelPolleres 
15:34:09 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
15:34:16 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:34:18 <Hassan> Nothing/Noone 
15:34:21 <csma> q?
15:34:28 <Hassan> Next topic: UCR
15:34:31 <JosDeRoo> q-
15:34:34 <csma> ack josde
15:34:38 <AxelPolleres> q-
15:35:15 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:35:26 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Hassan (6%), csma (44%), FrankMcCabe (31%)
15:35:31 <Hassan> Actions re: UCR? two for CSMA (one continued, one done)
15:35:33 <ChrisW> zakim, mute frank
15:35:33 <Zakim> FrankMcCabe should now be muted
15:36:10 <PaulaP> DONE
15:36:23 <Hassan> Action of Frank and Paula: merging requirement graph (done)
15:37:10 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:37:36 <Hassan> CSMA: Anyone to elaborate a new UC for XML Data (Axel & Dave)?
15:37:46 <DanC> for RDF data, no?
15:37:56 <Hassan> Sorry!
15:37:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:37:59 <AxelPolleres> I didn't volunteer for the XML use case?!?
15:38:14 <AxelPolleres> I put this use case online.
15:38:16 <DavidHirtle> q+
15:38:18 <DaveReynolds> Is this the rewrite of the integration use case?
15:38:39 <DavidHirtle> q+ to ask if Christian is talking about the publication alternative use case
15:38:47 <csma> q?
15:38:47 <FrankMcCabe> I see 40 mins scheduled for a discussion on requirements
15:39:01 <DavidHirtle> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Candidate_Use_Cases_for_2nd_Draft/PublicationAlternative
15:39:02 <Hassan> CSAM: yes Dave - it is a rewrite of the integration UC
15:39:06 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
15:39:11 <AxelPolleres> yes.
15:39:16 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:39:19 <DavidHirtle> q-
15:39:32 <DaveReynolds> ack me
15:39:33 <Hassan> CSAM: move on to the Req. discussion
15:39:35 <csma> ack dave
15:40:01 <Hassan> DaveReynolds: What is the deadline for doing this?
15:40:07 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:40:11 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:40:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, please mute me
15:40:13 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:40:33 <Hassan> CSMA: no deadline - just wanted to know if the UC can be discussed at the F2F3
15:41:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:41:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:41:24 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:41:39 <ChrisW> q?
15:41:53 <Hassan> CSMA: because of low attendance at F2F3, please review all relevant documents and send comments before F2F3 especially if not attending 
15:42:08 <csma> ack leora
15:42:21 <PaulaP> q+
15:42:34 <Hassan> Leora: How come FOL has been eliminated from the Reqs?
15:42:41 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:42:48 <Hassan> ChrisW: Nothing has been eliminated
15:43:24 <FrankMcCabe> q+
15:43:43 <Hassan> Leora: confused about several issues regarding what FOL and what "soundness" means for this WG
15:43:47 <johnhall> "Substantial proportion of FOL" ia also a question from SBVR team
15:44:26 <csma> ack paula
15:44:52 <DavidHirtle> q+ to note that "substantial portion of the so-called Logical Rule systems" got changed to "substantial portion of First-Order Logic" by ChrisW
15:44:54 <Hassan> Sandro: Christian please clarify about this issue about FOL 
15:45:14 <Hassan> Mala: FOL req not in diagram, but is is the Wiki
15:45:31 <ChrisW> ^mala^paula^
15:45:57 <Hassan> Sorry again - please speakers state you names!
15:46:09 <csma> q?
15:47:05 <Hassan> Leora: Worried about FOL being not deemed as important as it should for RIF
15:48:02 <csma> ack frankmc
15:48:03 <Hassan> Leora: will explore the issue by email
15:48:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, please mute me
15:48:09 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:48:25 <PaulaP> it was in an older version of the document
15:48:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> ^Leora: Worried^Leora: Concerned^
15:48:44 <Hassan> Frank: I don't see "substantial portion of FOL" - but see support for FOL - in the diagram
15:49:49 <DavidHirtle> q-
15:50:04 <ChrisW> we are taling about:
15:50:05 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements
15:50:14 <Hassan> Frank: i wish to discuss the diagram for CSF to explain it to the WG
15:50:16 <PaulaP> the text under the DCs diagram is under development/refinement at moment
15:51:06 <ChrisW> q?
15:51:08 <DavidHirtle> (I think everyone doesn't realize this -- the diagram is really the up to date thing)
15:51:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> ^Leora: confused^Leora: has questions^
15:51:23 <Hassan> Frank: need to find better formulations
15:51:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan, just edited your transcribing of my remarks.
15:52:00 <Hassan> Frank: wishe to raise a few issues that need to be discussed: eg, Markups
15:52:04 <csma> q?
15:52:42 <PaulaP> it is shortly explained in the text
15:52:42 <Hassan> Frank: procedural attachments?
15:52:47 <DaveReynolds> The text on "meta-language" doesn't match what Frank just said
15:52:55 <PaulaP> but we are going to refine it in the next days
15:53:26 <DaveReynolds> XML -> extensibilty is different from "XML support" -> extensibility
15:54:12 <Hassan> Frank: this diagram must be assessed for completeness, and commented with additional text
15:54:29 <DanC> "support XML" seems to be in a requirement box, but I don't understand how to test it. hm.
15:54:29 <Hassan> Frank: the diagram should be read as an index into the text
15:54:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> I'm glad that FOL has not been ruled out
15:54:56 <Hassan> Frank: to Leora: we have no intentions to rule out FOL as a Req.
15:54:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> Nevertheless, I think it's important to explicitly include FOL
15:55:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> as a requirement
15:55:56 <Hassan> PaulaP: There are open issues that need to be settled
15:56:06 <PaulaP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements
15:56:07 <FrankMcCabe> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements
15:56:10 <Hassan> CSMA: Not in my version!
15:56:23 <johnhall> click on the link in the agenda
15:56:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:56:37 <Hassan> CSAM: Oh now it is! :-)
15:56:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:56:45 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:56:48 <DanC> (so is http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Design_Constraints still used?)
15:57:03 <PaulaP> yes it is
15:57:49 <Hassan> CSMA: the list of Reqs to be discussed at the F2F3 is what will be posted before this Friday night
15:58:17 <ChrisW> Please see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html
15:58:25 <Hassan> Sandro: shall we prioritize them by championing them?
15:59:33 <Hassan> ChrisW: The wiki pages accommodate "championing" the Reqs 
15:59:54 <ChrisW> q?
15:59:56 <sandro> (The term "champion" is lousy.   "support" is better.)
15:59:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> With respect to the list of open requirements, it seems to me that requiring FOL should not be in the same bucket as requiring likelihood and probabilities.
16:00:05 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Design_Constraints
16:01:21 <ChrisW> +1 to getting rid of older pages
16:01:28 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html
16:01:28 <Hassan> Sandro: need to clean up all obsolete pages
16:01:33 <csma> q?
16:01:49 <Zakim> -SaidTabet
16:02:14 <Hassan> ChrisW: I sent a list of pages that need to be reconciled 
16:02:36 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rif
16:02:37 <csma> q?
16:02:43 <Hassan> CSMA: Frank's and Paula's page should be the reference
16:03:09 <Hassan> CSMA: ACTION on Frank and Paula to do the cleanup
16:03:11 <csma> q?
16:03:12 <johnhall> q+
16:03:41 <sandro> ACTION Frank: Consolidate all the data from the four pages linked from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html on to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements
16:03:49 <Hassan> Frank: A design constraint is on the solution, a requirement is on the problem
16:04:05 <DanC> (huh? isn't requirement pretty much a synonym for design constraint? i.e. something you can test a design against. Can we please try discussing a requirement/constraint in practice?)
16:04:39 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR
16:05:13 <DavidHirtle> q+
16:05:49 <csma> ack leora
16:06:01 <johnhall> zakim, unmute me
16:06:01 <Zakim> johnhall should no longer be muted
16:06:30 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
16:06:30 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
16:06:55 <Francois>   zakim, who is speaking?
16:07:06 <Zakim> Francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Hassan (29%), csma (56%), David_Hirtle (9%), Sandro (9%), FrankMcCabe (5%)
16:07:09 <Hassan> DavidHirtle: Are Goals and Reqs to be put in disting sections in the UCR document?
16:07:27 <Hassan> CSMA: the structure of the UCR document will be discussed at the F2F3
16:07:36 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:07:55 <ChrisW> ack david
16:08:12 <csma> ack frank
16:08:44 <sandro> Sandro: Frank and Paula should go ahead and edit the wiki, starting at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR to make their work nicely readable
16:08:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:09:17 <Hassan> FrankMcCabe: UCR document : use cases, then goals and reqs, then design constraints
16:10:22 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:10:36 <DanC> (yeah, whatever csma said, somebody pls write it down. or perhaps Chris already did in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html ? )
16:10:50 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:11:20 <ChrisW> action: paula and frank to update GCR document wrt previous work
16:11:37 <ChrisW> (to be completed by next tuesday)
16:11:44 <csma> q?
16:11:54 <csma> ack john
16:12:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:12:20 <csma> ack leora
16:12:22 <Zakim> -Philippe_Bonnard
16:12:26 <hak> hak has joined #rif
16:12:29 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
16:12:29 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
16:12:37 <hak> I am back
16:12:54 <ChrisW> leora: having RIF handle probabilities is in a different "bucket" than FOL
16:13:16 <ChrisW> ... FOL is much more basic
16:13:24 <ChrisW> ... at least to RIF
16:13:35 <ChrisW> csma: open issues is just a heap right now
16:13:51 <ChrisW> ... of "todo" items
16:14:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
16:14:00 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
16:14:35 <ChrisW> frank: will probably have the work done today or tomorrow
16:14:44 <ChrisW> ...so people will have time to respond
16:15:30 <hak> Zakim, Hassan is me
16:15:30 <Zakim> +hak; got it
16:15:45 <ChrisW> ... so Friday is the deadline
16:15:52 <sandro> Proposed: Editors Draft of UCR/Requirements to be frozenon Friday
16:15:53 <ChrisW> ... for the GCR document
16:16:11 <hak> CSMA: must include the most recent posting (done before friday)
16:16:28 <hak> FrankMcCabe: the document cannot be frozen on Friday
16:16:48 <hak> Sandro: why not Monday?
16:16:52 <DanC> (it sounds to me like 2 round-trips is infeasible. I'd suggest just one. The editor's do their best in the next day or so and then freeze it, without setting any expectation that they'll address comments.)
16:17:09 <josb> Monday would be helpful
16:17:14 <hak> CSMA: Tuesday noon?
16:17:34 <PaulaP> +1 to ChrisW
16:17:39 <GaryHallmark>  1 for friday freeze
16:17:48 <DanC> I think freezing Friday is workable.
16:17:50 <hak> ChrisW: we need and extra round - please send comment right away, and we'll review Friday's version at the F2F3
16:17:53 <GaryHallmark> s/1/ 1
16:18:23 <josb> Friday would be better
16:18:30 <DanC> (I heard Chris say we _don't_ need an extra round)
16:18:31 <DavidHirtle> (keyboard problem, Gary?)
16:18:41 <GaryHallmark> me thinks my plus sign is gone!
16:18:44 <ChrisW> ^ChrisW: we need^ChrisW: we DO NOT need^
16:18:49 <csma> q?
16:18:54 <DanC> (sounds to me like the plan Chris laid out in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html is OK)
16:18:56 <hak> I heard ChrisW say we do need one
16:19:33 <hak> CSMA: move to RIFRAF topic
16:19:50 <hak> Action on Harold (DONE)
16:20:26 <csma> q?
16:20:44 <hak> Sandro: what are our priorities for this call's agenda?
16:21:03 <ChrisW> Harold action done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0235.html
16:22:14 <hak> Sandro: we should discuss some of the requirement even if this meeting is extended
16:22:19 <hak> -1
16:22:49 <Francois> -1
16:22:55 <hak> Sandro: anyone having prepared anything to step forth?
16:24:15 <DanC> in the agenda are "Discussion of Reactive Rules requirement" and "Discussion of OWL KBs requirement"
16:24:23 <hak> Sandro: now is the good time to bring up what you care about
16:24:52 <hak> ChrisW: extend this call by 30mins for one requirement discussion?
16:24:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Right ... I thought in the agenda the 2 requirements up fordiscussion did *not* include FOL.
16:24:53 <hak> -1
16:25:00 <MichaelKifer> -1
16:25:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> But  sure, I am happy to discuss FOL.
16:25:04 <josb> -1
16:25:15 <AlexKozlenkov> -1
16:25:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> But no one else is ...
16:25:31 <AlexKozlenkov> cannot discuss now even though it is important
16:25:33 <Francois>  this does not look like many agreeing... 
16:25:52 <MalaMehrotra> MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
16:26:06 <hak> Sandro: hope everyone will be ready for a productive discussion
16:26:26 <Francois> bye. Sorry, i cannot stay longer... 
16:26:36 <hak> CSMA: Actions on RIF/RAF criteria before F2F3?
16:26:54 <Zakim> -Francois
16:27:15 <hak> CSMA: either (1) a new version of the RIF/RAF or (2) more classification of systems done
16:28:16 <hak> Harold: some amendment are possible, but not easy to modify the schema without breaking some instances
16:30:19 <DanC> we started formalizing the evaluations in DAWG, fyi... we didn't ever exploit the data, so it rotted... I'll find a pointer...
16:30:48 <hak> CSMA: actions on technical design
16:31:38 <AxelPolleres> continued, will try to send some mail by Friday.
16:31:52 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0040.html design eval matrix in RDF and N3 
16:32:09 <hak> CSMA: any last item?
16:32:09 <csma> q?
16:32:32 <Zakim> -johnhall
16:32:42 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
16:32:43 <Zakim> -igor
16:32:44 <Zakim> -josb
16:32:44 <hak> CSMA: proposes to adjourn
16:32:44 <DanC> ChrisW, sorry for taking group time on stuff that was already covered.
16:32:45 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
16:32:46 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:32:46 <PaulaP> bye
16:32:47 <Darko> -Darko
16:32:47 <Zakim> -MarkusK
16:32:48 <Zakim> -Harold
16:32:50 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:32:51 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:32:51 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
16:32:52 <PaulV> bye
16:32:53 <Zakim> -Darko
16:32:54 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/30-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:55 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:32:57 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:32:59 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:33:01 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:33:03 <Zakim> -JosDeRoo
16:33:05 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:33:05 <Darko> Darko has left #rif
16:33:09 <Zakim> -DanC
16:33:29 <MalaMehrotra> bye
16:33:44 <Zakim> -David_Hirtle
16:33:46 <Zakim> -Mala
16:34:00 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2006/05/30-rif-minutes.html
16:34:21 <hak> hello
16:34:35 <PaulaP> PaulaP has left #rif
16:34:49 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:34:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, hak, ChrisW, Sandro, AlexKozlenkov (muted)
16:35:00 <ChrisW> zakim, drop alex
16:35:00 <Zakim> AlexKozlenkov is being disconnected
16:35:02 <Zakim> -AlexKozlenkov
16:35:13 <Zakim> -hak
16:50:21 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:50:27 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:50:36 <Zakim> -csma
16:50:37 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:50:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Philippe_Bonnard, csma, +1.503.317.aaaa, David_Hirtle, Dave_Reynolds, josb, Allen_Ginsberg, ChrisW, PaulaP, Harold, Mike_Dean, Sandro, Francois, Gary, DanC,
16:50:43 <Zakim> ... Leora_Morgenstern, johnhall, MarkusK, Deborah_Nichols, Darko, StellaMitchell, AlexKozlenkov, Igor_Mozetic, FrankMcCabe, SaidTabet, me\, igor, MichaelKifer, Mala, [IPcaller],
16:50:45 <Zakim> ... JosDeRoo, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark, hak
16:51:01 <csma> What happened to the phone connection?
16:57:44 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:10:04 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
19:00:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif