14:59:52 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:59:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/11-xproc-irc 14:59:55 zakim, this will be xproc 14:59:55 ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 14:59:56 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started 15:00:03 +Murray_Maloney 15:00:09 zakim, please call ht-781 15:00:09 ok, ht; the call is being made 15:00:10 +Ht 15:00:41 +Alessandro_Vernet 15:00:49 +Norm 15:01:43 richard has joined #xproc 15:02:08 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:02:09 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:02:09 On the phone I see Murray_Maloney, Ht, Alessandro_Vernet, Norm 15:02:16 +??P21 15:02:22 +??P19 15:02:40 zakim, mute ??P19 15:02:40 ??P19 should now be muted 15:02:45 +Alex_Milowski 15:02:46 Norm has changed the topic to: XProc: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/05/11-agenda.html 15:02:49 zakim, unmute ??P19 15:02:49 ??P19 should no longer be muted 15:02:57 zakim, ??21 is richard 15:02:58 sorry, richard, I do not recognize a party named '??21' 15:03:02 zakim, ??P21 is richard 15:03:02 +richard; got it 15:03:25 yes we're talking 15:03:29 zakim, disconnect ht 15:03:29 Ht is being disconnected 15:03:30 -Ht 15:03:37 zakim, ??P19 is Rui 15:03:37 +Rui; got it 15:03:38 zakim, please call ht-781 15:03:38 ok, ht; the call is being made 15:03:40 +Ht 15:03:42 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 15:03:47 Scribe: Norm 15:03:49 ScribeNick: Norm 15:03:53 Date: 11 May 2006 15:03:58 Chair: Norm 15:04:08 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/05/11-agenda.html 15:05:27 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:05:27 On the phone I see Murray_Maloney, Ht, Alessandro_Vernet, Norm, richard, Rui, Alex_Milowski 15:06:29 Present: Murray, Norm, Henry, Alessandro, Richard, Rui, Alex 15:06:42 Regrets: Andrew, Michael, Paul 15:07:42 MoZ has joined #xproc 15:08:34 Zakim, what is the code ? 15:08:34 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ 15:09:38 Topic: Accept this agenda?NE 15:09:38 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/05/11-agenda.html 15:09:50 Accepted. 15:09:56 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference? 15:09:56 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/05/04-minutes.html 15:10:05 Accepted. 15:10:15 Topic: Next meeting: 18 May 2006 15:10:29 Already regrets from: Andrew, Michael, Henry 15:10:48 Topic: Face-to-face 15:10:58 Please register: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38398/XProcFTF2/ 15:11:07 Local arrangements: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/08/02-04-f2f.html 15:11:32 Norm hopes we can nail down the transport next week. 15:11:44 Topic: Review of open action items 15:12:03 A-19-01 continued 15:12:10 A-19-02 completed 15:12:20 A-18-01 completed 15:12:32 A-17-02 completed 15:12:47 A-13-01 continued 15:13:03 ACTION: Norm to lookup revised ETA for A-13-01 15:13:16 Topic: Issue 3089: What version/subset of XPath is used in conditionals? 15:13:27 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3089 15:13:47 MoZ: are you trying to dial in and not gettting through the bridge? 15:15:11 + +33.8.72.47.aaaa 15:15:33 Norm: Three possibilities, 1) use someone else's streaming subset, 2) invent our own, 3) ues full XPath and leave it as a QoI issue 15:15:53 zakim, who is talking? 15:16:04 richard, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Norm (39%) 15:16:17 zakim, mute me 15:16:17 Norm should now be muted 15:16:25 zakim, aaaa is moz 15:16:25 +moz; got it 15:16:28 zakim, mute moz 15:16:28 moz should now be muted 15:16:57 zakim, unmute me 15:16:57 Norm should no longer be muted 15:17:42 Alex: Although I use a streaming subset, I think that's an optimization. I think we shouldn't have a subset. 15:18:43 Norm: I can find off-the-shelf full XPath 1.0 implementations, so I think that answer makes it easiest to get started 15:19:03 Norm: Is there anyone that thinks we need to define a subset? 15:19:16 Henry: I'm uncomfortable, but I'm willing to leave it for CR. 15:19:41 Norm: That works for me. 15:19:51 Richard: Do we have a good idea of what circumstances these XPaths are used in 15:20:17 Norm: Off the top of my head, we've got: conditionals, peepholing 15:20:24 Richard: Also the "replacement" component 15:20:43 Richard: It's possible that that's a component by itself. 15:20:59 Norm: so those wouldn't have to be the same. 15:21:18 Richard: I think I'm happy for it to be full XPath 1.0 and I can detect some streamable queries. 15:21:53 Proposal: We will use XPath 1.0 in our language 15:22:38 Allesandro: I think it will be interesting to have XPath 1.0 vs XPath 2.0 question 15:22:53 Alessandro: At least in the environment I am working in, off-the-shelf 2.0 implementations are easy to come by. 15:23:45 Norm: Do you have a use case in mind for pipeline conditionals? 15:23:50 Alessandro: Not off the top of my head 15:24:19 Alex: We could declare what version of XPath the pipeline uses and implementations can reject pipelines they can't support. 15:24:40 Richard: Isn't it the case that if you have XPath 2.0, you have to worry about whether the data has schema type and so on. 15:25:08 Richard: I know that there are XSLT 2.0 implementations that don't support the schema stuff and can give different answers. 15:25:39 Richard: If we introduce XPath 2.0 are we introducing new levels of conformance. 15:26:15 Norm: Yes, I think they would. 15:26:47 Norm: This seems useful and interesting, but not necessary. 15:27:16 Norm observes, in response to Richard, that having XPath 2.0 would mean that the pipeline engine would have to be able to import schemas 15:28:09 Alessandro: In environments where 2.0 is available, requiring XPath 1.0 seems like a burden 15:28:13 MoZ has joined #xproc 15:29:30 Norm prefers a single choice for interoperability 15:29:48 Alex: By the time we become a recommendation, we have to have a cohesive store around XSLT 2.0, XPath 2.0, XQuery, etc. 15:30:09 Alex: I don't think we can push that to V.next, we need to come out with a recommendation that works well with those technologies. 15:30:13 Norm: Wow. Ok. 15:30:43 Norm worries that dealing with those things in 1.0 makes our goal of finishing this year hopeless. 15:32:29 Alessandro: I agree that there's complexity, but I think we should try just a little bit harder to try to accomodate schemas and XPath 2.0 15:32:45 Alessandro: It might be the case that we come to the conclusion that we can't do it in 1.0 15:33:15 Murray: I would tend to agree with Norm, let's do something we can accomplish in the timeframe we set out, even if it isnt' as grand and robust and wonderful as we might achieve in the fullness of time. 15:33:21 Murray: We can move onto the next stage afterwards. 15:33:45 MoZ_ has joined #xproc 15:34:39 Norm: Can Alex/Alessandro make some proposals to see if you can convince us that using schemas, XPath 2.0, etc. is achievable in our timeframe? 15:34:45 Alessandro: yes 15:34:51 Alex: yes 15:35:46 Proposal: We will assume full XPath, not a straming subset, in the language (unless and until we get pushback from implementors) 15:36:09 Accepted. 15:36:46 Topic: Issue 3198: Functional components? 15:36:57 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3198 15:37:05 -Murray_Maloney 15:37:39 We've already made a decision about this, this issue is just for the future 15:37:55 Topic: Issue 3199: How do pipeline parameters, inputs, and outputs interact? 15:38:03 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3199 15:38:30 MoZ_ has joined #xproc 15:38:44 We don't really have any clear ideas about exactly how these things fit together yet 15:39:53 Norm reviews Richard's ideas that started this 15:40:02 Richard: Fundamentally, it must be possible to get some output into a parameter. 15:40:23 ...The simplest way to define a parameter is to give a literal value. 15:40:49 ...The next way up would be to give an XPath and the output of some other component to apply it to. It would evaluate the expression and the result would be the value of the variable 15:41:25 ...So the temporary file component could generate a document and the XPath expression could be "." 15:41:35 ...This means that all these things are connected by plumbing. 15:42:09 ...Other people have mentioned at various times mechanisms for having variables that are in scope, etc. But I thnk the simple method is a good starting point. 15:43:51 Norm: I had in mind setting variables in general being specified with XPaths (so that pipeline parmams could be composed from command line params (for example) and others. 15:44:02 Norm: I was thinking of evaluating them all with an mepty document node as the context. 15:44:16 Norm: Extending that to allow them to specify an input document makes sense. 15:44:32 Norm: Is that sufficient? 15:45:06 Henry: It ought to be possible in a pipeline definition to say that the value of some step parameter is referred to at the pipeline level 15:45:13 Scribe isn't sure that he recorded Henry correctly 15:47:50 Norm: Parameters could have two attributes: value and select for literal values and XPath expressions 15:48:01 Some discussion about how these things get connected together syntactically. 15:48:16 Richard: I think the 90% case is that variables are constants. It's reasonable for it to be slightly complicated. 15:48:35 ACTION: Norm to write up his thoughts on parameters and inputs 15:48:53 Alex: This is related to the variables action that I have 15:49:35 Richard: It would be nice if this mechanism was extensible to being able to having different variables in scope in different parts of the pipeline. 15:49:46 Richard: But it's not immediately clear to me how it is. But maybe it is. 15:50:05 MoZ_ has joined #xproc 15:52:33 Topic: Any other business? 15:52:38 None. 15:52:45 Adjourned. 15:52:49 -Alex_Milowski 15:52:50 -Ht 15:52:50 -richard 15:52:52 -Norm 15:52:53 -moz 15:52:53 alexmilowski has left #xproc 15:52:56 -Rui 15:52:58 rlopes has left #xproc 15:53:00 rrsagent, make logs world-visible 15:53:03 -Alessandro_Vernet 15:53:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:53:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/11-xproc-minutes.html Norm 15:53:05 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 15:53:07 Attendees were Murray_Maloney, Ht, Alessandro_Vernet, Norm, Alex_Milowski, richard, Rui, +33.8.72.47.aaaa, moz 15:53:09 zakim, bye 15:53:11 Zakim has left #xproc 15:53:12 rrsagent, bye 15:53:12 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/11-xproc-actions.rdf : 15:53:12 ACTION: Norm to lookup revised ETA for A-13-01 [1] 15:53:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/11-xproc-irc#T15-13-03 15:53:12 ACTION: Norm to write up his thoughts on parameters and inputs [2] 15:53:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/11-xproc-irc#T15-48-35