11:18:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
11:18:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc
11:18:40 <RalphS> RalphS has changed the topic to: RDF-in-HTML TF; Ralph may be late due to broken-down train
11:18:57 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make log publci
11:19:08 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make log public
11:19:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #htmltf
11:19:37 <RalphS> zakim, this will be htmltf
11:19:37 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, RalphS
12:57:34 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #htmltf
12:57:38 <Steven> Steven has joined #htmltf
12:57:44 <RalphS> zakim, this will be html
12:57:44 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
12:57:57 <Steven> hi there
12:58:46 <RalphS> RalphS has changed the topic to: RDF-in-HTML TF; agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0028.html
12:59:02 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-HTML TF
12:59:05 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0028.html
12:59:22 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-04-10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0026.html
13:01:00 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
13:01:00 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
13:01:04 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:01:11 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:01:18 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:01:18 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:01:19 <Zakim> +Steven
13:01:31 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:01:53 <Zakim> +??P2
13:01:59 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
13:01:59 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
13:03:01 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
13:03:08 <RalphS> next meeting: Monday, 24 April
13:04:10 <RalphS> Ben: to get 2nd WD of RDF/A Primer publishing approval at 8 May SWBPD telecon we need to distribute final editor's draft by Monday 24 April
13:04:48 <RalphS> ... I hope to distribute a draft by then
13:06:21 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben draft mail to Guus and David regarding continuation of HTML TF work
13:08:04 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben integrate Jeremy's actions into list of issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/10-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
13:08:24 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
13:08:45 <RalphS> -- done; Mark about to press 'send' on his commetns
13:08:52 <RalphS> s/tns/nts/
13:09:03 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
13:09:06 <RalphS> -- continues
13:09:15 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
13:09:17 <RalphS> -- continues
13:09:31 <RalphS> Ben: likely done by next week after I integrate Mark's comments
13:09:44 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben update his bookmarklet for XHTML mode [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12]
13:09:52 <RalphS> Ben: this update was a lot of fun
13:10:01 <RalphS> ... works in Mozilla and Firefox, not 100% in Opera
13:10:22 <RalphS> Steven: it used to work on Opera
13:10:40 <RalphS> Ben: the DOM API changed slightly; it's supposed to be more conformant now
13:11:00 <RalphS> ... unfortunately, bookmarklet doesn't yet work in Safari
13:11:16 <RalphS> Steven: seems to work on Ben's bookmark page but not on Ben's home page
13:12:09 <benadida> http://ben.adida.net/index.xhtml
13:12:24 <RalphS> Ben: you'll find two paragraphs on ^ that I've marked-up with <meta>
13:12:32 <RalphS> ... it turned out to be quite a bit easier than I had expected
13:14:00 <RalphS> ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:14:03 <RalphS> -- continues
13:14:20 <RalphS> Steven: just needs more cycles from the editors
13:14:30 <RalphS> ... nothing the TF can really contribute to getting those cycles
13:15:10 <RalphS> Mark: re Primer ...
13:15:27 <RalphS> ... where do Ben and Ralph see the spec itself going?
13:15:58 <RalphS> Mark: we agreed that the normative spec for RDF/A would be part of the XHTML specification
13:16:04 <RalphS> s/Mark:/Ben:/
13:16:24 <RalphS> Mark: so if we're going to talk about XHTML 1 modules these need something to refer to
13:16:40 <RalphS> Ben: they (we!) can refer to the primer
13:16:51 <RalphS> ... we have a syntax that is pretty darn good
13:16:57 <RalphS> ... and we now have to make it work in XHTML1
13:17:17 <RalphS> ... so we have to see how much the browser vendors will agree to implement
13:17:31 <RalphS> Mark: we have to decide what it is that we call "RDF/A"
13:17:37 <RalphS> ... the primer cannot be the normative definition
13:17:52 <RalphS> ... can we revisit the other document?  something more formal defining the attributes?
13:18:04 <RalphS> Ben: it's OK to refer to the other document as input to the next WG
13:20:09 <RalphS> Ralph: it would indeed be too bad to have to maintain normative specifications in two parallel documents; an XHTML2 WD and separate RDF/A and CURIE WDs
13:20:33 <RalphS> ... I look to the HTML WG to advise on where to most effectively work during the month of May
13:20:47 <RalphS> Mark: there is some material from my IPTC work that ought to be added to the spec
13:21:21 <RalphS> ... did Ben do anything subconsciously when implementing his bookmarklet that hasn't yet made it into the spec?
13:21:33 <RalphS> Ben: I really worked just from the Primer
13:21:49 <RalphS> Mark: I think I could update the RDF/A spec next week
13:22:14 <RalphS> Mark: the HTML WG needs the feedback on the reference document
13:25:02 <RalphS> Steven: the XHTML2 editors' expectation is to integrate the RDF/A WD plus more recent agreements
13:25:21 <RalphS> Ben: would it help for Mark to update the independent document that we have, or do you have it all swapped-in?
13:25:34 <RalphS> Steven: I think I have it all swapped-in, but the results will need to be checked
13:25:48 <RalphS> Ben: I want to be sure we spend the cycles we have in the right place
13:26:12 <RalphS> Steven: the XHTML2 spec is changing in several places, not just in RDF/A
13:26:30 <RalphS> Mark: I think we need a document that we are confident is up-to-date, and sooner rather than later
13:26:57 <RalphS> ... e.g. if "someone" decides they want to start adding RDF/A support to, say, Redland, we want them to have the right details
13:27:20 <RalphS> Ben: what is going to help the HTML WG get the work out faster?
13:27:45 <RalphS> Steven: it will help to have everything in one place, so it would not be wasted work
13:27:57 <RalphS> ... we have noticed in the past that we'd interpreted things differently
13:30:14 <RalphS> Ralph: a possibility for Mark's proposed writing is to focus a normative proposal draft on an RDF/A XHTML 1.1 module
13:30:37 <RalphS> ... see proposed charter for SemWeb Deployment WG
13:30:53 <RalphS> Mark: I wasn't thinking that a new spec draft had to be done quickly
13:31:11 <RalphS> ... just wanted to insure that we'd captured everything we'd agreed
13:31:21 <RalphS> ... and some recent IPTC work that isn't written down
13:32:29 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/swap3/deployment-charter.html draft SemWeb Deployment WG charter proposal [Member only]
13:32:51 <RalphS> Topic: Marketing Proposal for RDF/A
13:33:19 <RalphS> Ben: I have received feedback on the topic of a name change
13:33:25 <RalphS> ... the overwhelming advice is 
13:33:41 <RalphS> ... the overwhelming advice is "if you're going to change the name, do it right away"
13:34:29 <MarkB_> zakim, q+
13:34:29 <Zakim> I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue
13:34:50 <RalphS> Ben: I believe we need to address our main audience of HTML authors
13:35:18 <RalphS> Mark: many strands in the email discussion
13:35:45 <RalphS> ... I'd like to identify two things; (1) a language and (2) a tagging process; an action
13:35:56 <RalphS> ... I don't have a problem calling the language "RDF/A"
13:36:12 <RalphS> ... the tagging process is above the language and I don't think we should call that "RDF/A"
13:36:36 <RalphS> ... Microformats is an approach, not a language
13:36:59 <RalphS> ... the "microformats" process can be summed-up in a few words
13:37:51 <RalphS> ... so we can talk technical details about the language separately from [high-level goals] such as "structured blogging"
13:38:19 <RalphS> ... it's much more important to come up with a phrase or word that describes this structured metadata
13:38:31 <RalphS> [Ralph: +1 to Mark]
13:38:48 <RalphS> Steven: there are plusses and minuses to using the name "RDF/A"
13:39:01 <RalphS> ... "RDF" is tainted in some parts of the community
13:39:22 <RalphS> ... but it could help to make it clear that RDF is a broad concept and is more than RDF/XML
13:39:54 <RalphS> Ben: this could work well with Mark's second name; we need not mention RDF until people want to look deeply
13:39:59 <MarkB_> zakim, q+ To mention a podcast I heard recently about microformats.
13:39:59 <Zakim> I see RalphS, MarkB_ on the speaker queue
13:40:06 <RalphS> Steven: think about "meta" and "link"
13:40:16 <RalphS> ... suggestion: metalink
13:40:27 <MarkB_> metal ink!
13:40:39 <RalphS> Ben: Hal Abelson sugestion: Semantic HTML, aka SHTML
13:40:58 <RalphS> ... though the latter has an unfortunate pronunciation
13:41:05 <RalphS> ... could also say "Structured HTML"
13:41:26 <RalphS> Steven: I think apache uses .shtml for server-side HTML
13:42:18 <RalphS> Ralph: agree with Mark's two items to name
13:43:28 <MarkB_> [Things to do with 'inline' I quite like.....'embedding'...etc., for the 'approach' side.]
13:43:32 <RalphS> PROPOSED: the technical work may still be called "RDF/A" but the overall approach gets a new name
13:43:52 <RalphS> ... the approach to provide semantic structure in HTML gets a new name
13:43:59 <RalphS> Mark: seconded
13:44:33 <RalphS> ... we could call the language "RDFA" -- i.e. without '/'
13:44:38 <RalphS> ... or perhaps "RDFa"
13:45:00 <RalphS> ... I put the '/' in just to align with RDF/XML, RDF/N3
13:45:53 <RalphS> Ben: I like the proposal to take out the '/'
13:46:53 <RalphS> Ralph: I'm neutral on removing the '/'. I suspect I'm the one who most frequently writes RDF/N3, though I tend toward symmetry
13:47:00 <RalphS> Steven: I tend toward keeping the '/'
13:47:19 <RalphS> s|RDF/N3|"RDF/N3"|
13:47:56 <RalphS> Ben: my goal is to get people to understand the HTML language and then later realize that it's RDF and therefore RDF need not be as complicated as they had heard
13:48:20 <RalphS> Mark: was recently talking with a commentator who suggested that RDF was not as difficult as perceived
13:49:36 <RalphS> ... it's important that people realize the benefits of precise semantics
13:50:43 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0008
13:50:46 <benadida> ^ marketing proposal
13:50:48 <RalphS> Ben: there's more to the marketing proposal than a name
13:51:17 <RalphS> ... it points to W3C as the repository for the normative specs
13:51:19 <RalphS> [no disagreement]
13:51:45 <RalphS> Ben: pointers to specific techniques, e.g. for bloggers
13:54:13 <RalphS> Ralph: I'm all in favor of letting other organizations share the fun of providing community forums to help in the design and deployment of this approach
13:54:28 <RalphS> Mark: this is a key technology for us
13:55:10 <RalphS> ... for example, we're doing a blogging interface
13:57:49 <RalphS> Ben: Creative Commons is offering to host a site but happy to defer to someone else
13:58:34 <RalphS> Mark: an implementation of a really good RDF/A site would be using lots of other technologies as well
13:58:47 <RalphS> ... our goal is quick and easy publication of metadata
13:59:05 <RalphS> q+ to ask if we really want just one site?
14:01:08 <RalphS> ack me
14:01:08 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to ask if we really want just one site?
14:01:19 <RalphS> Ralph: we should find a name for the approach that we can register in DNS
14:02:02 <Steven> nk is a countrycode
14:02:09 <Steven> metali.nk
14:02:09 <RalphS> :)
14:02:25 <Steven> or me.tali.nk
14:02:33 <MarkB_> LoL
14:02:56 <MarkB_> iLi.nk? (Like iPod...)
14:03:00 <RalphS> ["metali" -- pronounced met'-al-ly -- has a nice ring to me]
14:03:31 <Zakim> MarkB_, you wanted to mention a podcast I heard recently about microformats
14:03:58 <RalphS> Mark: everyone wants to publish dates when they blog, so I'm quite into the calendaring application
14:05:00 <RalphS> Mark: I'd like introductory examples that are really _introductory_ -- that don't get into too many hard details
14:05:44 <MarkB_> x - port.net 
14:05:55 <MarkB_> formsPlayer.com
14:06:28 <MarkB_> skimstone.x-port.net
14:07:17 <Zakim> -Steven
14:07:18 <Zakim> -MarkB_
14:07:20 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:07:20 <RalphS> Ben: I will have a new editor's draft of Primer by Friday
14:07:23 <RalphS> [adjourned]
14:07:25 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:07:27 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:07:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Steven, Ralph, MarkB_
14:19:40 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:19:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
14:19:47 <RalphS> zakim, bye
14:19:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf
14:20:19 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
14:20:19 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-actions.rdf :
14:20:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben draft mail to Guus and David regarding continuation of HTML TF work [1]
14:20:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-06-21
14:20:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action05] [2]
14:20:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-08-24
14:20:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [3]
14:20:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-09-03
14:20:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [4]
14:20:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-09-15
14:20:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [5]
14:20:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-14-00
14:21:02 <benadida> benadida has left #htmltf