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08:00:48 <sandro> topic: introduction
08:00:54 <sandro> scribe: sandro
08:01:00 <sandro> chair: Christian
08:01:07 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:01:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/27-rif-minutes.html sandro
08:02:30 <sandro> Christian: My objective is to finalize discussion on use cases.  If we can't do then, then we need to agree on what to publish.
08:02:42 <sandro> s/then/that/
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08:03:47 <sandro> Christian: We're obvsiously starting late.   The agenda may need to shift.
08:03:56 <sandro> (long line at registration, although really only about 10 minutes.)
08:04:10 <sandro> Christian: We might or might not do the split sessions
08:04:54 <sandro> ... One of the objectives of this meeting is to have people talk to each other, including in small groups.  Thus the long lunch break.
08:05:07 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RIF F2F2: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F2
08:05:45 <mdean> can someone dial in to Zakim?
08:06:28 <sandro> We seem to not have a speakerphone, Mike.  Sorry.    I'll try to figure it out during the break.
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08:06:56 <mdean> ok - thanks
08:07:16 <sandro> (We were supposed to have one, and are paying for one.)
08:11:35 <sandro> Christian: Scribes!   One scribe for short sessions, two for long.  Not much more than one hour or maybe 1.5 hours.
08:11:39 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/ScribesList
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08:17:17 <sandro> First session scribe: Gary, then Giorgos Stamou
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08:18:12 <sandro> Attendance
08:18:15 <sandro>     * Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday, tuesday
08:18:29 <sandro>     * Peter F. Patel-Schneider <pfps@inf.unibz.it> (Free University of Bozen-Bolzano) : attending monday, tuesday
08:18:50 <sandro>     * François Bry <bry@ifi.lmu.de> (REWERSE) : attending monday, tuesday
08:19:00 <sandro>     * Jos de Bruijn <jos.debruijn@deri.org> (DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria) : attending monday, tuesday
08:19:08 <sandro>     * Igor Mozetic <igor.mozetic@ijs.si> (Jozef Stefan Institute) : attending monday, tuesday
08:19:17 <sandro>     * Axel Polleres <axel.polleres@uibk.ac.at> (DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria) : attending monday, tuesday
08:19:23 <sandro>     * John Hall <john.hall@modelsys.com> (Object Management Group, Inc. (OMG)) : attending monday, tuesday
08:19:25 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #rif
08:19:29 <sandro>     * Paula-Lavinia Patranjan <paula.patranjan@ifi.lmu.de> (REWERSE) : attending monday, tuesday
08:19:36 <sandro>     * Michael Sintek <sintek@dfki.uni-kl.de> (German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence (DFKI) Gmbh) : attending monday, tuesday
08:19:43 <sandro>     * Giorgos Stamou <gstam@softlab.ntua.gr> (Image Video & Multimedia Systems Laboratory of National Technical University of Athens (IVML-NTUA)) : attending monday, tuesday
08:20:00 <sandro>     * Hassan Ait-Kaci <hak@ilog.com> (ILOG, S.A.) : attending monday, tuesday
08:20:12 <sandro>     * Francis McCabe <frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com> (Fujitsu Limited) : attending monday, tuesday
08:20:17 <sandro> (Frank)
08:20:35 <sandro>     * Jos De Roo <jos.deroo@agfa.com> (Agfa-Gevaert N. V.) : attending monday, tuesday
08:20:39 <sandro>     * Christian de Sainte Marie <csma@ilog.fr> (ILOG, S.A.) : attending monday, tuesday
08:20:45 <sandro>     * Gary Hallmark <gary.hallmark@oracle.com> (Oracle Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
08:20:54 <sandro>     * Markus Krötzsch <mak@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de> (Forschungszentrum Informatik (FZI)) : attending monday, tuesday
08:21:09 <sandro> coming late:     * Andreas Harth <andreas.harth@deri.org> (DERI Galway at the National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland) : attending monday, tuesday
08:21:22 <sandro> not here:     * Sergio Tessaris <tessaris@inf.unibz.it> (Free University of Bozen-Bolzano) : attending monday, tuesday
08:21:29 <sandro>     * Allen Ginsberg <aginsberg@imc.mitre.org> (MITRE Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
08:21:45 <sandro> mistake:     * Eric Miller <em@w3.org> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday, tuesday
08:21:56 <sandro>     * Uli Sattler <Ulrike.Sattler@manchester.ac.uk> (University of Manchester) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:01 <sandro>     * Paul Vincent <paulvincent@fairisaac.com> (Fair Isaac Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:07 <sandro>     * Michael Kifer <kifer@cs.sunysb.edu> (W3C Invited Experts) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:12 <sandro>     * Donald Chapin <Donald.Chapin@btinternet.com> (Object Management Group, Inc. (OMG)) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:20 <sandro>     * Deepali Khushraj <deepali.khushraj@nokia.com> (Nokia Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:25 <sandro>     * Harold Boley <Harold.Boley@nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> (National Research Council Canada) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:34 <sandro>     * Giorgos Stoilos <gstoil@image.ntua.gr> (Image Video & Multimedia Systems Laboratory of National Technical University of Athens (IVML-NTUA)) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:43 <sandro> Not coming:     * Dieter Fensel <dieter.fensel@deri.ie> (DERI Galway at the National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:50 <sandro>     * Darko Anicic <darko.anicic@deri.org> (DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria) : attending monday, tuesday
08:22:54 <sandro>     * Mala Mehrotra <mm@pragati-inc.com> (Pragati Synergetic Research Inc.) : attending monday, tuesday
08:23:04 <sandro>     * Jeff Pan <pan@cs.man.ac.uk> (University of Manchester) : attending monday, tuesday
08:23:09 <sandro>     * Jeremy Carroll <Jeremy.Carroll@hp.com> (Hewlett Packard Company) : attending monday, tuesday
08:24:52 <sandro> coming late:     * Christopher Welty <cawelty@frontiernet.net> (IBM Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
08:24:52 <sandro>   *     Vassilis Tzouvaras
08:24:53 <sandro>       (not yet registered)
08:24:57 <sandro> Observers:
08:24:59 <sandro>     * Christine Golbreich <Christine.Golbreich@univ-rennes1.fr> (<strong>not affiliated to a W3C Member</strong>) : attending monday, tuesday
08:25:06 <sandro> (not here) Eric Miller
08:25:08 <sandro> (not here) Danny Weitzner
08:25:13 <sandro> (not here)     * Thomas Roessler <roessler@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday, tuesday
08:25:14 <sandro>     * Lee Feigenbaum <feigenbl@us.ibm.com> (IBM Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
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08:25:16 <sandro>     * Elias Torres <eliast@us.ibm.com> (IBM Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
08:25:31 <sandro> (not here)     * Susan Lesch <lesch@w3.org> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday
08:25:38 <sandro> (not here)     * Andy Seaborne <andy.seaborne@hp.com> (Hewlett Packard Company) : attending monday, tuesday
08:25:44 <sandro> (not here)     * Fabien Gandon <Fabien.Gandon@sophia.inria.fr> (Institut National de Recherche en Informatique et en Automatique) : attending monday, tuesday
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08:26:19 <sandro> (not here)     * Carine Bournez <carine@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday, tuesday
08:26:40 <sandro> s/(not here)//
08:26:49 <sandro>     * Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday
08:27:20 <sandro>     * Alistair Miles <a.j.miles@rl.ac.uk> (Council for the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils (CCL)) : attending monday, tuesday
08:27:29 <sandro>     * Eric Prud'hommeaux <eric@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday, tuesday
08:28:45 <sandro>   * Brian McBride
08:29:12 <sandro> Attendees complete.
08:29:54 <mdean> Mike Dean on IRC and phone
08:30:13 <GaryHallmark> ScribeNick: GaryHallmark
08:30:14 <sandro> Topic: 09:00-10:30 - Review Use Cases (section 2 of [WWW] UC&R draft)
08:31:09 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes
08:31:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/27-rif-minutes.html sandro
08:32:29 <GaryHallmark> ScribeNick: GaryHallmark
08:35:09 <GaryHallmark> christian: forus on the purpose of rule interchange
08:35:23 <GaryHallmark> ... e.g. it could be compliance
08:36:18 <GaryHallmark> ... or negotiation to refine the rule
08:37:16 <GaryHallmark> ... or to extend and published ontology
08:37:18 <GaryHallmark> s/and/an
08:37:28 <GaryHallmark> s/an/a
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08:38:02 <ericP> sandro, would you like me to chekc on the speaker phone?
08:38:22 <ivan> s/forus/focus/
08:38:39 <GaryHallmark> ... RIF could be used without interchange, e.g. persitance
08:38:48 <sandro> Sure, EricP, but coordinate with Carine, who might be checking as well.
08:39:11 <GaryHallmark> s/persitance/persistence
08:39:32 <sandro> Christian: 1.  Purpose of Publish/Interchange of Rule
08:39:32 <sandro> Christian: 2.  Purpose of Translating the Rules into RIF
08:39:32 <sandro>  
08:39:35 <GaryHallmark> ... look for gaps and overlaps in UCs
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08:42:47 <GaryHallmark> allen: would like OWL use cases as a model for ours
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08:44:02 <GaryHallmark> ... uses cases should drive design requirements but not be over-analyzed
08:44:41 <sandro> +1 on Frank & Allen  (don't worry about UC's being idiosyncratic -- just use them to drive Goals/Requirements.)
08:45:36 <GaryHallmark> ... use case names should catch people's interest
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08:50:16 <GaryHallmark> frank: look for fundamental drivers and issues rather than more cases
08:52:03 <GaryHallmark> sandro: use cases should drive design decisions
08:52:52 <ericP> in the DAWG, use cases lead directly to requirements
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08:53:21 <ericP> the two were cross-ref'd, which allowed us to drop redundant use cases
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08:54:07 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
08:54:07 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
08:54:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see JeremyCarroll, GaryHallmark, DaveReynolds, GiorgosStamou, aliman, Harold, ericP, Darko, JeffP, LeeF, EliasT, AxelPolleres, ivan, PaulaP, MarkusK, msintek, Francois,
08:54:11 <sandro> zakim, this is rifwg
08:54:11 <Zakim> ... josb, FrankMcCabe, RRSAgent, sandro, mdean
08:54:12 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RIF(TP)3:00AM
08:55:10 <GaryHallmark> topic: information integration use case
08:55:31 <GaryHallmark> allen: now named business process design
08:56:08 <GaryHallmark> ... rif would help redesign or improve biz process
08:57:26 <GaryHallmark> frank: tried to make the case more compelling
08:57:34 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Information_Integration
08:57:37 <GaryHallmark> ... driver: dynamic integration of information
08:58:39 <GaryHallmark> ... explore synergy of biz processes and rules
08:59:43 <sandro> Uli: is this about integrating data (via rules), or integrating rules?
08:59:48 <GaryHallmark> ... about integrating rules, not using rules to integrate data
08:59:54 <sandro> Frank: integrating rules.
09:01:06 <sandro> Frank: We need access to business rules of supply chain partners.
09:02:37 <GaryHallmark> francois: rule integration should be a central theme of several use cases
09:03:09 <GaryHallmark> s/rule/ruleset
09:03:28 <sandro> Francois: "Integrating rule sets"
09:04:32 <sandro> Jeremy: HP wants integration of data!
09:05:04 <josb> +1 agree with Jeremy; RIF should support information integration
09:05:21 <sandro> Christian: Yes -- if this section turns into Ruleset Integration, we need data mapping someone else.
09:05:43 <sandro> s/someone/somewhere
09:06:05 <GaryHallmark> frank: Hendler argues that RIF is for rule interchange, not information integration
09:07:35 <GaryHallmark> francois: rif is for both information integration and rule set integration
09:08:20 <GaryHallmark> ... rule sets will need to be integrated sometime after they exist
09:09:22 <GaryHallmark> ... because the rule sets are developed in parallel
09:11:09 <sandro> Christian:  if each user does the data mapping rules on their own, ... that doesn't scale.
09:11:44 <sandro> ... I need to import that rules.
09:12:22 <sandro> Jeremy: If I can publish my mappings in a publically understanding format, then it *does* scale.
09:12:59 <sandro> ...: But Jena rules doesn't solve the problem -- we need RIF so people can publish the rules for re-use.
09:13:28 <sandro> Frank: Is RIF yet another rule language for describing mappings.
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09:14:46 <GaryHallmark> francois: porting rules is hard
09:15:04 <GaryHallmark> ... but we can enable publishing
09:17:51 <GaryHallmark> sandro: would like more concrete details about possible data mapping use case
09:19:23 <sandro> sandro: I specifically heard Frank say "We need access to business rules of supply chain partners" -- and I like that as a concrete, motivated use case
09:19:41 <sandro> sandro: And Jeremy seems to be motivated on data mapping.
09:19:46 <GaryHallmark> frank: familiar with product that uses rules to map biz terms to IT term, but it doesn't involve rule exchange
09:21:11 <sandro> Jeremy: Is enterpirse information integration problem done in one giant leap (millions paid to SAP), or does one do it in a distributed small-steps manner?   The latter requires publishing rules.
09:21:30 <sandro> sandro; Call that "Grassroots Data Integration"
09:21:40 <sandro> s/;/:/
09:23:13 <sandro> sandro: I'm hearing two use cases here :   ruleset integration (eg for supply chain);  grassroots data integration (eg vocabulary mapping business -to- IT vocabularies)
09:23:47 <sandro> "access to business rules of supply chain partners"
09:25:42 <GaryHallmark> frank: supplier and customer relationships are different
09:26:16 <sandro> christian: do you need to execute the rules?
09:26:32 <sandro> frank: not clear
09:27:08 <GaryHallmark> ... i.e. the rules are not aggregated
09:28:44 <GaryHallmark> frank: relationships are dynamic - data may come from you or partner, rules may be executed by you or partner
09:29:40 <sandro> portability vs publication
09:30:18 <GaryHallmark> sandro: need to move to another use case
09:31:56 <sandro> topic: Coffee Break until 11:00
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10:02:10 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:02:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/27-rif-minutes.html sandro
10:03:41 <Zakim> +??P3
10:03:42 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P3)
10:03:58 <sandro> topic: UCR - Decision Support 
10:04:06 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Decision_Support
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10:09:35 <sandro> ScribeNick: deepalik 
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10:11:11 <sandro> Christian: 15 minutes on Decision Support use case
10:11:37 <sandro> ... note Leora is not here
10:12:45 <sandro> ... Decision Support ->  Integrating Rules from Multiple Knowledge Sources for Decision Support
10:13:19 <deepalik> csma: key focus of use case is integrating rules from multiple knowledge sources for decision support
10:13:39 <MarkusK> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Decision_Support
10:14:13 <deepalik> might want to distinguish between interoperation and integration
10:14:48 <MarkusK> s/might/Uli Sattler: might"
10:15:10 <MarkusK> s/might/Uli Sattler: might/
10:18:14 <sandro> csma: will anyone argue for keeping the E-Learning use cases?
10:18:34 <deepalik> csma: this is clearly a use case of aggregation-- the doctore scenario does not add value to this. Hence, might want to drop this
10:18:44 <deepalik> s/doctore/doctor
10:19:40 <deepalik> s/doctor/E-learning use case
10:21:48 <josb> +1 on Sandro's comment; use case descriptions should be concise
10:27:04 <deepalik> this section needs some review to cover important points covered in straw poll comments
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10:31:11 <deepalik> csma: what are the key dimensions of this use case?
10:31:29 <sandro> suggested: 2.2 Ruleset Integration for Medical Decision Support
10:32:45 <sandro> suggested: 2.* Interative User Training Via Reactive Rules
10:33:36 <sandro> Francois: Main title as one axies, subtitle as another axis -- doesn't really matter which is which.
10:34:21 <deepalik> Need to rename this section with maybe a subtitle. 
10:34:31 <sandro> Uli: another heading: added value from RIF
10:37:32 <sandro> Francois: Give me an appplication based on Rules, and half a day, and I'll show you how you'll end up with rule interchange!
10:37:47 <sandro> +1
10:39:20 <josb> +1 agree with last comment Francois
10:42:28 <sandro> sandro: does the WG agree that aggregating rules for decision support -- eg for drug proscribing -- is in scope for us, something to do.
10:42:43 <deepalik> sandro: vote on who thinks that aggregating rules for decision support systems is in scope
10:43:37 <sandro> paul: are they cases where you do the integration by hand now?
10:46:46 <sandro> Christine:  you need to aggregate onotologies (as in Charter use case) as well as rules.
10:47:51 <sandro> accessing and integrating rules from many sources to support decision -- is this a RIF Use Case?
10:48:19 <sandro> resolved: in scope
10:50:16 <sandro> Christian: different from Frank's case in that you're integrating the rules here.
10:50:31 <sandro> Hassan: Digest the rules.
10:51:03 <deepalik> different from integration use case is you take ownership on rules
10:51:10 <sandro> Gary: really want a few simple examples of rules in each use case!!
10:51:27 <sandro> (widely seconded)
10:52:08 <deepalik> 2-3 people don't think it should be done
10:52:16 <sandro> why not:  Peter -- examples could be another source of contention, or could be wrong, or could concentrate attention on things that don't matter.
10:52:52 <sandro> Peter: eg endless arguments about the service syntax.
10:53:23 <sandro> Allen: as long as it's clear, examples not needed.   Might even be offputting.
10:53:29 <deepalik> Allen: Did not support it because it is not crucial to formalize them
10:54:23 <deepalik> Use don't have to use a formal syntax-- it could be in natural language
10:54:24 <sandro> josb: rules can be in pseudocode
10:54:35 <deepalik> s/Use/Rules
10:54:39 <sandro> josb: this is rule 1: (in english)
10:55:50 <sandro> Francois: be careful that people might read too much into examples -- like that this is the syntax we'll be using!
10:56:19 <sandro> (I wonder if each example could be captioned "Pseudo-code example")
10:56:29 <deepalik> mala: the interchange aspects are not brought out by examples.
10:57:03 <deepalik> csma:examples could be more like protocols (?)
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11:31:41 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/ucr/diff-20060215-20060227.html
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13:01:46 <Vassilis> \me, Hello
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13:02:35 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:02:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/27-rif-minutes.html sandro
13:04:06 <sandro> Note for the record that we have real network problems -- some people can't get on IRC.
13:07:43 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/ucr/draft-20060227.html
13:08:00 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/ucr/draft-20060227.html#Cross-Platform_Rule_Development_and_Deployment
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13:10:24 <sandro> Mala: My objection was about the importance of templates, which help highlight differences between rules.
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13:15:43 <sandro> PaulV: We use have parameterized templates-- design patterns for rules -- but they are orthogonal to rules themselves.   It might be useful to pass around templates, sure.
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13:18:01 <sandro> Harold: These are rule schemes
13:18:11 <sandro> s/mes/mas/
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13:25:56 <sandro> Francois: Rule signatures
13:44:57 <sandro> RESOLVED: approve 2.3 as modified on wiki and with new title (as shown on csma's slide)
13:45:50 <sandro> (where Approval means for next editor's draft --- objections might still come from member's orgs -- not quite approval for publication yet.)
13:47:07 <sandro> old version (straw poll version) is http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/ucr/draft-20060215
13:48:00 <sandro> diff of section 2.4 (this one) is http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/ucr/diff-20060215-20060227.html#Policy-Based_Transaction_Authorization_and_Access_Control
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13:58:35 <sandro> Donald: RIF needs to pick a standard language for its facts, eg RDF
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14:17:45 <JosDeRoo> changes at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/ucr/diff-20060215-20060227.html
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14:22:06 <sandro> RESOLVED: approve 2.4
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16:00:04 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
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17:03:00 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:08:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, TPRivieraC, in SW_RIF(TP)3:00AM
17:08:03 <Zakim> SW_RIF(TP)3:00AM has ended
17:08:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, TPRivieraC, Dave_Reynolds
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