IRC log of htmltf on 2006-02-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:19 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc

14:00:43 [Steven]

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14:00:55 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:00:55 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:00:56 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

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+Steven

14:01:04 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:01:20 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

14:01:39 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Feb/0031.html

14:01:55 [RalphS]

Previous: 2006-02-13 http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes

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Chair: Ben

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+Ben_Adida

14:05:03 [MarkB_]

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14:05:44 [RalphS]

Regrets: MarkB

14:06:07 [RalphS]

Regrets+ Jeremy

14:07:07 [RalphS]

Topic: Action Review

14:07:58 [RalphS]

Ralph: I would like to talk about the implementation when Jeremy is here

14:08:22 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben talk off-line with Jeremy about a realistic implementation schedule

14:08:57 [RalphS]

Steven: Mark and I were discussing offering a lightning talk on RDF/A at the Tech Plenary

14:09:08 [RalphS]

... there's a session on microformats earlier in the day

14:09:29 [RalphS]

... we're thinking about two talks: one on RDF/A generally and a second on the relationship between RDF/A and microformats

14:09:41 [RalphS]

Ben: I'm giving a talk at Semantic Technologies in 2 weeks on RDF/A

14:11:00 [RalphS]

... but I am available for a telecon on 6 March

14:11:08 [RalphS]

RESOLVED: next meeting 6 March

14:11:35 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12]

14:11:37 [RalphS]

-- done

14:11:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

14:11:49 [RalphS]

-- done

14:12:19 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

14:12:23 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-01-24-rdfa-primer

14:12:23 [RalphS]

Ben: I changed the XSLT

14:14:20 [RalphS]

Steven: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-01-24-rdfa-primer.html is being served to me as UTF-8

14:14:27 [RalphS]

-- done

14:14:47 [RalphS]

ACTION: Jeremy followup on edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03]

14:14:49 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:14:57 [RalphS]

ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01]

14:14:59 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:15:08 [RalphS]

ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02]

14:15:10 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:15:17 [RalphS]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

14:15:19 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:16:46 [RalphS]

Steven: had hoped to have editor's draft done last week. Editor's draft will be done this week because the WG plans to discuss it next week face-to-face

14:17:02 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

14:17:03 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:17:51 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben update the editor's draft to add to section 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

14:18:00 [RalphS]

... this was for the missing triples

14:18:17 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]

14:18:19 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:18:25 [RalphS]

Ben: I want to keep this open as a reminder

14:18:32 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

14:18:34 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:18:41 [RalphS]

Ben: want Mark's input before closing this

14:19:17 [RalphS]

Topic: RDF/A Containers

14:19:30 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-rdfa-containers

14:19:38 [RalphS]

Ben: I had two different approaches as I started to write

14:19:53 [RalphS]

... 1) modifying the triples produced by the previous rules

14:20:30 [RalphS]

... decided this was a bad idea as the previous rules were created with the idea that we were adding semantics where none existed before

14:21:05 [RalphS]

... 2) make RDF/A containers add new triples in addition to the previous ones

14:21:15 [RalphS]

... all triples generated by the previous rules are still generated

14:21:42 [RalphS]

... option 2 seemed best as we recognized that HTML lists do have semantics

14:21:57 [RalphS]

Steven: this is one place where we'd be specifying a tight binding with HTML

14:22:10 [RalphS]

... do we want to be able to use RDF/A with other markup languages?

14:22:28 [RalphS]

Ben: this is really just syntactic sugar for the HTML case; perhaps other languages would have similar sugar

14:22:55 [RalphS]

Ben: look at example in 2.4

14:23:10 [RalphS]

... the HTML behaviour would make the list items clickable

14:23:32 [RalphS]

... the additional RDF/A behaviour is to make triples

14:23:48 [MarkB_]

Mark would like to point out that then when I suggested this approach (;) ) I did point out that it is *one-directional*. I.e, we say that in HTML these items generate these triples. But we don't put these elements into RDF/A.

14:23:59 [RalphS]

... I believe the edge cases; e.g. an LI that specifies it's ordinal number, have been considered

14:24:38 [RalphS]

Ralph: ?what does "we don't put these elements.." mean, Mark

14:24:43 [MarkB_]

Which also means that we don't say 'if you want RDF containers do this'. As I say, it only goes in one direction.

14:25:21 [MarkB_]

Ralph...if we had a 'core RDF/A spec' to be imported into other languages, I'm not sure that we would include ol/li/ul etc. in it.

14:25:31 [RalphS]

ok, Mark

14:25:37 [MarkB_]

So HTML has list mark-up, but RDF/A doesn't.

14:26:23 [RalphS]

that's pretty much what Ben said, Mark; we don't expect other languages necessarily to have to follow this particular sugar

14:26:45 [RalphS]

Steven: it doesn't look like it's dangerous

14:26:57 [RalphS]

... it doesn't override any other semantic, rather it makes those semantics explicit

14:27:15 [RalphS]

Ben: the RSS example shows why this is particularly useful

14:27:52 [RalphS]

Ralph: what about DL?

14:28:18 [RalphS]

Ben: I expect that DL behaves in the same way but it doesn't use LI

14:28:32 [RalphS]

... it might be different triples

14:29:53 [MarkB_]

DL is awkward...I think it it has numerous pairs of items, with no unique parent to each pair. I dont think it's like other lists.

14:30:09 [RalphS]

Ralph: I think we should defer DL for the next version

14:30:16 [RalphS]

... since the DT is the list member

14:30:26 [RalphS]

... but there's a clear relationship between the DD and the DT

14:30:39 [RalphS]

... and I think we'd want to be sure to get that relationship 'right' and make it explicit

14:30:55 [RalphS]

RESOLVED: defer DL to a future version

14:31:10 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben note that DL is deferred to a future version

14:31:18 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben add DL to the future issues list

14:32:14 [RalphS]

Ralph: does this add a new rule for determining subject?

14:32:19 [RalphS]

Ben: yes, but only for the new triples

14:32:41 [RalphS]

... see, e.g. 3.3.2

14:33:33 [RalphS]

... even without the about= attribute the cc:license triples are generated

14:34:03 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben note that about="" is redundant in 3.3.2

14:34:34 [RalphS]

Ben: the argument in favor of including about is to be completely clear; it doesn't matter what the enclosing HTML does

14:34:48 [RalphS]

... the new Container triples depend only on the enclosing element

14:36:06 [RalphS]

Ralph: this subject question would come to light in the implementation phase

14:36:17 [RalphS]

... does this new rule interact in any inconvenient way with the other rules?

14:36:29 [RalphS]

Ben: these are really just extra rules so should not interact with other rules

14:37:41 [RalphS]

Ralph: consider 3.3.1

14:38:20 [RalphS]

... this construct is common in HTML

14:38:37 [RalphS]

... so with this container addition we're causing many more documents to generate triples

14:38:39 [RalphS]

... is this OK?

14:38:51 [RalphS]

Steven: I don't think the author consciously cares in the general case

14:39:07 [RalphS]

... but there is a semantic distinction between OL and UL -- ordered vs. unordered

14:39:30 [RalphS]

... so 3.3.1 probably ought to be unordered as grocery lists probably are not ordered

14:40:07 [RalphS]

... I think the semantics are good; whether you use the triples or not, [the semantics they imply are] sort-of there anyway

14:40:19 [RalphS]

... so this gives an advantage for those who do care

14:40:36 [RalphS]

Ben: this connects to the OPML crowd in an interesting way

14:41:22 [RalphS]

Ben: only other consideration might be NL

14:41:33 [RalphS]

... does NL have any special rendering rules?

14:41:36 [RalphS]

Steven: not really

14:41:45 [RalphS]

... NL has a label, which OL and UL don't

14:41:51 [RalphS]

... so one of the possible renderings is a menu

14:42:14 [MarkB_]

The opposite :) It gives you nothing that you don't get from ul/li/@href

14:42:17 [RalphS]

... ML has a label element

14:42:31 [MarkB_]

(ul and ol should get labels too)

14:42:39 [RalphS]

_should_ ?

14:42:48 [RalphS]

s/ML/NL/

14:43:06 [RalphS]

Steven: it is Mark's opinion that UL and OL should have optional <label> as well

14:43:06 [MarkB_]

It's an HTML discussion...but I don't think that NL is needed now that @href is allowed everywhere.

14:43:30 [Steven]

and role="navigation"

14:43:58 [RalphS]

Steven: NL was introduced before we had role, and specifically before role='navigation'

14:44:15 [RalphS]

... so NL is really a historic artifact

14:44:28 [RalphS]

... so the HTML WG may need to review past decisions

14:45:03 [RalphS]

... let's leave NL as Ben has it for now

14:45:07 [RalphS]

... and see what happens with NL

14:45:32 [RalphS]

ack me

14:45:32 [Zakim]

RalphS, you wanted to ask about start=

14:45:51 [RalphS]

Ralph: there are interesting semantics if the element has a start= attribute

14:45:59 [RalphS]

Steven: also value=

14:46:07 [RalphS]

... value gives the ordinal number of the LI

14:46:24 [RalphS]

... e.g. value='30' on LI is the same as start='30' on the list element

14:46:38 [RalphS]

Ben: if there's an explicitly given ordinal then we should respect it

14:46:43 [RalphS]

... and increment from there

14:46:52 [RalphS]

Steven: yes, this is really nice for HTML

14:47:04 [RalphS]

... up to now this semantics has only been recorded in stylesheets

14:48:40 [RalphS]

Ralph: this gives us a reason to keep Containers in RDF

14:49:17 [RalphS]

Ben: there's a 2004 document from Eric Miller saying Containers and Collections are peers

14:49:41 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/

14:50:01 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed

14:50:50 [RalphS]

Ralph: editorial; please change "subtype" to "subclass" in 2.2

14:50:53 [RalphS]

Topic: WWW2006

14:51:05 [RalphS]

Steven: there's a call for developers' track proposals

14:51:12 [RalphS]

... I think we should do something about RDF/A

14:52:01 [RalphS]

Ralph: there is not a developer's _day_ -- WWW2006 has a "developer's track"

14:52:40 [RalphS]

Ben: I don't currently have plans to attend, though I note the W3C AC meeting closeby

14:53:03 [RalphS]

Steven: we should talk about RDF/A as the solution to the last problems that microformats have

14:53:22 [RalphS]

... microformats do a lot of similar things but can only talk about the current document

14:53:46 [RalphS]

... we should present RDF/A as next generation microformats

14:53:53 [RalphS]

Ben: expect debate from Tantek

14:54:47 [RalphS]

Steven: Jeremy and Mark are the chairs of the Developer's Track

14:55:02 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed

14:55:41 [RalphS]

Steven: I don't want to do this presentation alone; would like to be joined by someone from SemWeb

14:55:49 [RalphS]

Ben: I will consider

14:57:02 [RalphS]

"Proposals for presentations are requested by the deadline of March 5th 2006."

14:57:03 [RalphS]

-- http://www2006.org/developers/

14:57:06 [Steven]

Deadline March 5th

14:57:49 [RalphS]

-> http://www2006.org/developers/cfp.php Call for Developer Submissions

14:58:01 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed

14:59:02 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed

15:00:01 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately

15:00:02 [Zakim]

The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 18 ports must be freed

15:00:36 [RalphS]

ACTION: Steven draft a WWW2006 Developer's Track proposal

15:00:46 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

15:00:48 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:00:50 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:00:54 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:00:56 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

15:00:58 [Zakim]

Attendees were Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida

15:01:04 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make this record public

15:01:11 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:01:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS

15:02:18 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #htmltf

15:03:05 [benadida]

benadida has left #htmltf

16:00:30 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-actions.rdf :

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben talk off-line with Jeremy about a realistic implementation schedule [1]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-08-22

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12] [2]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-11-35

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action11] [3]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-11-48

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [4]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-12-19

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy followup on edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03] [5]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-14-47

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01] [6]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-14-57

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02] [7]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-15-08

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [8]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-15-17

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [9]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-17-02

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [10]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-18-17

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [11]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-18-32

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben note that DL is deferred to a future version [12]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-31-10

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben add DL to the future issues list [13]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-31-18

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben note that about="" is redundant in 3.3.2 [14]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-34-03

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven draft a WWW2006 Developer's Track proposal [15]

16:00:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T15-00-36