IRC log of ua on 2006-02-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:57:38 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
18:57:49 [JR]
Zakim, this will be UAWG
18:57:49 [Zakim]
ok, JR; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
18:58:16 [JR]
AJAX - what is it? What are the accessibility issues? What are the
18:58:16 [JR]
implications for UAAG?
18:59:00 [JR]
Agenda+ AJAX - what is it? What are the accessibility issues? What are the implications for UAAG?
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WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
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+ +1.781.442.aaaa
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19:00:26 [jallan]
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+ +1.877.625.aabb
19:01:07 [JR]
Agenda+ Review techniques for 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1)
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Agenda+ 3. Review Test Suite items for 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1)
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Attendees from SUN today: Peter Korn, Will Walker, Dan Labrecque
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Meeting: WAI UA
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19:03:00 [JR]
Scribe: JR
19:03:11 [JR]
Chair: jallan
19:03:47 [JR]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
19:03:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "AJAX - what is it? What are the accessibility issues? What are the implications for UAAG?" taken up [from JR]
19:04:04 [Zakim]
19:05:15 [JR]
Possible regrets from Cathy Laws
19:05:53 [JR]
JA: UA might develop document about how UAAG should relate to AJAX
19:06:36 [JR]
JA: PF is looking at DHTML - which will relate to AJAX
19:07:26 [JR]
EJ: AJAX is an approach ...- introduces same challenges as DHTML.
19:08:54 [JR]
DL: In SUN, AJAX being used to replace large junks of page - prob for screen readers, etc.
19:09:40 [JR]
JA: Prob. for DHTML as well - all comes back to things are dynamically are users supposed to finf out.
19:10:27 [JR]
PK: User Agents will need to implement platform accessibility API...
19:10:27 [JR]
PK: User agents would need to pick up annotations...
19:11:15 [JR]
PK: Info from DHTML to UA to platform accessibility API to Assisitive tech.
19:11:55 [JR]
PK: That seems to be appropriate place for UAAG to address this.
19:12:27 [JR]
PK: Issue is that platform dependent issues come to forefront.
19:13:09 [JR]
DL: In talking to Aaron from IBM, they seem to be identifying various approaches (roles, etc.)
19:13:20 [korn]
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19:14:02 [JR]
DL: Aaron had info on which things are working already (Window Eyes + Firefox)
19:14:26 [JR]
DL: Approach: start focussing on stop gap places...
19:14:55 [JR]
DL: Then there are the support issues...
19:16:08 [JR]
PK: Thinks that in uaag there would be specific checkpoint realted to all of the DHTML abilities - then state that the platform API's are the way to deal with them - then specific guidance plat-by-plat in the appendix.
19:16:18 [JR]
JA: Yes hoping to do that in techniques.
19:17:03 [JR]
JA: We do want to review new techs as they come out - if we find a hole then we may have to open up uaag. If no hole, then we'lll add more to uaag techs.
19:17:15 [JR]
PK: Any holes found?
19:17:31 [JR]
JA: No holes found during DHTML review.
19:17:45 [JR]
PK: Convinced there are holes...
19:18:12 [JR]
PK: In semantic area - no way to convey semantic meanings without API specifics
19:18:39 [JR]
PK: Not enough to just say there's a DOM event and assume AT knows about it.
19:19:23 [JR]
PK: Because people are using AJAX to put apps inside browsers that look remarkably like desktop apps.
19:19:53 [JR]
PK: More work then is needed to bring these across to the uyser.
19:20:06 [JR]
JA: But semantics in the code...
19:21:19 [JR]
PK: But in IBM work, "this thing is a menu role" - in flash, etc, etc. but as long as it is annotated appropriately and right events are fired then it should be handled as a menu.
19:21:54 [JR]
DL: That is the course that has been defined...
19:22:03 [JR]
PK:L But not given PF blessing.
19:23:40 [JR]
DL: IBM using unsupported techs (eg. XHTML 2.0) to do some of this stuff.
19:24:13 [JR]
DL: Where do we start now?
19:26:06 [JR]
PK: We are talking about bring in section 508 (desktop applications 1194.21) into UA.
19:27:26 [JR]
PK: To some extent this is in WCAG -e.g. if you use Java etc. - but now its not extra content that is passed off, its done with content that the browser itself parses
19:27:56 [JR]
DL: There's also Section 508 .22 that falls on the content writer.
19:29:41 [JR]
PK: More concretely: In
19:30:12 [JR]
PK: Once I focus, i need to move it with keyboard PLUS i need labels...
19:31:12 [JR]
PK: All this needs to be exposed out through platform API
19:32:10 [JR]
PK: UAAG shouldtalk about how we expect roles etc to be used, including examples.
19:32:59 [JR]
PK: We should also reference, as examples, good examples of annotated content.
19:33:07 [JR]
JA: Right - in test suites
19:34:05 [JR]
JA: Let's look at Google suggest
19:34:41 [JR]
JA; JAWS does read some of it - what goes into form field.
19:35:26 [JR]
JK: But JAWS FAILS because there is more to the menu item than suggested text, there is also the number of results which JAWS did not read
19:37:38 [JR]
JA: Playing devils advocate: is it the author who does it?
19:38:02 [JR]
PK: Ideally it is the author of the AJAX GUI toolkits.
19:38:18 [JR]
PK: Would already be done.
19:39:00 [JR]
PK: AJAX authoring tool would also have accessibility validation for this stuff.
19:39:46 [JR]
PK: Basically this is the desktop coming to the browsert.
19:40:50 [JR]
PK: DHTML and AJAX are coming along REALLy fast.
19:42:20 [JR]
PK: We would really like pf and ua to push out some guidance asap.
19:43:58 [JR]
PK: Fortunately roles, etc don' affect rendering so if they change it shouldn't be a big deal
19:44:26 [JR]
PK: Main starting point is Firefox existence proof.
19:45:55 [JR]
JA: Don't want to rush opening uuag.
19:46:04 [JR]
JR: Could be a W3C Note
19:47:08 [JR]
PK: Not suggesting complete overhaul - it would be a new section.
19:49:09 [JR]
JA: Thinking about changing techs note and point to PF work.
19:50:27 [JR]
JR: Note also gives better flexibility to say platform epecific things.
19:50:59 [JR]
PK: This approach seems to make sense - though want to make sure we go into enough detail.
19:51:43 [JR]
PK: e.g. menu is a role from PF, this is what the expected behaviour is
19:52:04 [JR]
PK: then further in test suites
19:55:28 [jallan]
discussion of Authoring tool
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inviting sun folks to speak at authoring tools meeting
19:56:05 [Zakim]
19:56:12 [JR]
JR: AUWG and WCAG-Gl should be informed about this as they go towards last call.
19:56:17 [jallan]
how to get DHTML concerns into wcag
20:00:20 [Zakim]
- +1.877.625.aabb
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WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
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Attendees were +1.781.442.aaaa, Jan_Richards, Peter_Korn, +1.877.625.aabb, Jim_Allan, Earl_Johnson
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20:05:06 [jallan]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate jallan
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