18:02:46 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 18:02:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/02/14-tagmem-irc 18:02:55 +DanC 18:03:38 Meeting: TAG Weekly 18:03:41 Scribe: DanC 18:03:44 Chair: VQ 18:04:00 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/02/14-agenda.html 18:04:22 agenda + Administrative: role call, review records and agenda, plan next meeting 18:04:28 agenda + Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu 18:04:34 agenda + Heartbeats 18:04:44 agenda + Principle of Least Power 18:04:52 agenda + Issue namespaceDocument-8 18:05:04 agenda + Issue XMLVersioning-41 18:05:07 +DOrchard 18:05:32 Zakim, take up item 1 18:05:32 agendum 1. "Administrative: role call, review records and agenda, plan next meeting" taken up [from DanC] 18:05:36 Zakim, who's on the phone? 18:05:36 On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard 18:06:31 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/02/07-tagmem-minutes.html minutes 7 Feb 18:06:39 minutes 7 Feb good enough for me 18:06:47 +Ed_Rice 18:07:01 Ed has joined #tagmem 18:07:07 PROPOSED: to meet again 21 Feb 18:07:27 RESOLVED: to meet again 21 Feb, NDW to scribe 18:07:34 +TimBL 18:07:57 regrets timbl 21 Feb 18:08:29 Zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,4,6,5 18:08:29 ok, DanC 18:09:03 timbl has joined #tagmem 18:09:06 RESOLVED: to accept minutes 7 Feb 18:09:15 (vq will remove - DRAFT - ) 18:09:28 Zakim, next item 18:09:28 agendum 2. "Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu" taken up [from DanC] 18:09:42 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/02/27-agenda.html meeting page 18:11:03 DO: I'm working on the state finding... how about that for the agenda? 18:11:41 q+ to say I'm hoping we turn corner on least power before F2F, but if not maybe worth a bit of discussion 18:12:20 q- 18:12:34 DC: suggest moving metadataInURI-31 after the other 3 technical things 18:13:09 NM: if we don't finish least power, it might merit ftf discussion. leave it off for now, if the agenda is fluid. 18:13:59 "Monday 27 February: 13:30 - 17:30 @@@" 18:15:29 some sentiment for 2p, some for 1:30 18:16:10 RESOLVED to start 13:30 Monday 18:16:51 NM: did we end up with any liaison meetings scheduled? 18:16:54 VQ: not at this tiem 18:16:57 s/tiem/time/ 18:18:03 Ed: previously we had a "what's important for the coming year" session... shall we do that again 18:18:04 ? 18:18:31 DC, HT: I prefer the current contents of the agenda to that sort of thing 18:18:51 NM: perhaps make some time to chat with TV, but otherwise, yes, technical topics 18:19:30 dorchard has joined #tagmem 18:20:25 TBL: hmm.. indeed, looking forward would be good... do we have a social time scheduled? it's hard to swap between technical topics and looking ahead 18:20:43 DC: perhaps the "what did we learn this week?" session will be sufficient? 18:22:02 HT: I'm constrained to Monday evening for an evening thing 18:22:23 NM: I'll be on US east coast time, so not too late 18:22:53 ACTION: VQ organize a monday evening quiet social event 18:23:04 Zakim, who is on the phone? 18:23:04 On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL 18:23:17 VQ: around 7pm 18:23:45 Zakim, next item 18:23:45 agendum 3. "Heartbeats" taken up [from DanC] 18:27:30 DC: there's a convention of publishing on /TR/ at least every 3 months. We haven't done it in over a year. I'm inclined to take something and publish it. 18:27:42 NDW: yes, the ns48 finding is approved 18:29:01 TimBL: how about concatenating the approved findings? 18:29:12 DC: that's more work than I'm offering now 18:29:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html 18:29:34 list of findings http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/findings 18:29:39 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/findings 18:29:42 http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups.html#three-month-rule 18:30:10 (norm, I'm inclined to work from the .html only and not bother with the xml) 18:30:54 Speaking of which, the approved finding link at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1 is to the xml 18:30:58 This page contains the following errors: 18:30:58 error on line 17 at column 140: Entity 'http-ident' not defined 18:30:58 error on line 19 at column 199: Entity 'draft.day' not defined 18:30:58 error on line 20 at column 226: Entity 'draft.monthname' not defined 18:30:58 error on line 21 at column 247: Entity 'draft.year' not defined 18:31:01 error on line 24 at column 283: Entity 'http-ident' not defined 18:31:03 error on line 27 at column 370: Entity 'http-ident' not defined 18:31:06 error on line 30 at column 431: Entity 'http-ident' not defined 18:31:08 error on line 33 at column 488: Entity 'http-ident' not defined 18:31:11 Below is a rendering of the page up to the first error. 18:31:45 What page was that timbl? 18:34:02 TimbL: good to put all this in the SOTD: (1) it's approved by the tag (2) there's lots of other stuff (3) [darn; leaked out already] 18:35:02 PROPOSED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html as a W3C Working Draft 18:35:09 Uhm, with what shortname? 18:35:15 The eventual disposition of this text is not cler, but one possibility is it being integrated wioth other finids into a new AWWW or a second volume AWWW 18:35:43 TAG-namespaceState 18:35:59 namespaceState 18:37:23 ACTION NDW: with DanC, publish WD of ns48 finding 18:37:31 RESOLVED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html as a W3C Working Draft 18:38:18 VQ: this is just one document; we'll see what we learn from this 18:38:21 Zakim, next item 18:38:21 agendum 4. "Principle of Least Power" taken up [from DanC] 18:38:56 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html least power finding, latest version 18:39:06 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower-2006-2-13.html 13 Feb draft 18:40:35 NM: there has been much www-tag discussion of chomsky hierarchies and complexity... 18:40:39 Norm has joined #tagmem 18:40:56 What publication date should we use for namespaceState, DanC ? 18:41:16 dunno 18:41:28 There are many dimensions to language power and complexity that should be considered when publishing information. For example, a language with a straightforward syntax may be easier to analyze than an otherwise equivalent one with more complex structure. A language that wraps simple computations in unnecessary mechanics, such as object creation or thread management, may similarly inhibit information extraction. The intention of this finding is neither to rigor 18:41:45 necessarily interferes with information reuse. Rather, this finding observes that a variety of characteristics that make languages powerful can complicate or prevent analysis of programs or information conveyed in those languages, and it suggests that such risks be weighed seriously when publishing information on the Web. 18:41:46 HT: why not just say "occam's razor applies to computers too"? 18:41:48 q+ 18:41:52 Indeed, on the Web, the least powerful language that's suitable should usually be chosen. This is The Rule of Least Power: 18:42:01 Good Practice: Use the least powerful language suitable for expressing information, constraints or programs on the World Wide Web. 18:42:15 ack danc 18:42:19 q+ 18:42:39 ack timbl 18:43:04 DanC: yes, the principle is 2 lines, but what we add is to relate it to the history of web technology development. 18:43:13 ... e.g. how HTML is and why 18:43:23 TimBL: yes, examples. CSS vs javascript. 18:43:37 q+ 18:44:19 (huh? closed and continuous are pretty sharp mathematical concepts.) 18:45:09 TimBL: the fact that you can cascade to CSS stylesheets is a result of a decision to make it declarative 18:45:34 ack noah 18:45:58 q+ 18:46:06 q+ to suggest going specific-to-general 18:47:12 ack DanC 18:47:12 DanC, you wanted to suggest going specific-to-general 18:49:07 q+ to discuss scope of this rewrite...are we thrashing? 18:49:11 HST doesn't understand why Turning-completeness is bad 18:49:27 Prolog is Turing-complete, and dead easy to analyze! 18:50:07 hmm... I thought validator.w3.org would be impossible/impractical if the web had used TeX rather than HTML 18:50:11 SQL is Turing-complete (or close), and probably more analyzed than almost any other language 18:50:27 ack noah 18:50:27 noah, you wanted to discuss scope of this rewrite...are we thrashing? 18:50:30 the analysis of SQL is precicely on the bits that are *not* turning complete, no? 18:55:54 raman has joined #tagmem 18:56:18 belated regrets -- I shamefully admit that I just plain forgot to call in... 18:57:10 VQ, I suggest a straw poll: how many think it's reasonable to approve as is. 18:58:04 If you have a Turing-complete program, you don't in general know whether it even gets done 18:58:34 If I have a table in a relational database, or a list of name/value pairs, I don't have that problem. 18:58:50 DC: The halting problem is crucial. Most of the other things you want to know follow from it. 18:59:05 no, I didn't say it's crucial. 18:59:14 Sorry, that's what I thought I heard you say. 18:59:21 I just said you can't analyze scheme nor prolog 18:59:51 Zakim, who's on the phone? 18:59:51 On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL 19:02:48 PROPOSED: to approve "The Rule of Least Power" as 12 Feb draft, incorporating edits agreed by from NDW and NM 19:03:02 so RESOLVED. 19:03:22 raman has left #tagmem 19:03:30 ACTION NM: announce approved finding, when discussion with NDW concludes 19:03:42 Zakim, next item 19:03:42 agendum 6. "Issue XMLVersioning-41" taken up [from DanC] 19:04:43 ACTION DO: contextualize his scenarios, such as more on what is happening with SOAP and WSDL 19:04:44 Returning to the publication of namespaceState, I chose 23 Feb as the publication date because that's the last day before the moritorium. 19:05:02 DO: I did some work on this... 19:05:10 ... sent them to the schema WG a few weeks ago 19:05:58 ... haven't seen [which?] draft posted as I expected 19:06:40 ... I hope to talk with interested people at the TP in France 19:07:34 ... so I think this is done 19:07:37 DC: pointer? 19:08:01 DC/HT: getting it public has taken a back seat to other things 19:08:10 er... rather: DO/HT 19:08:51 NM: I think we have license to make this public already 19:09:03 HT: yes, if you can follow up, that would be fine 19:09:30 -- done 19:10:02 DO: Appropriate list is public-xml-versioning@w3.org 19:10:10 ACTION DO: with NM continue and extrapolate the versioning work DO et al have been doing already, updating the terminology section. 19:10:53 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Feb/0042.html terminology section update from DO 13 Feb 19:11:50 DO: I got some comments re first/last name from Misha 19:11:58 DO: main list is public-xml-versioning 19:12:25 not necessarily new, ht. RRSagent groks continued/done actions too 19:12:30 or at least: scribe.perl does 19:12:32 q+ 19:12:43 ack danc 19:13:33 DC: hmm... public-xml-versioning... partial understanding isn't limited to xml 19:16:24 q+ 19:17:14 ack timbl 19:18:13 DO: public-xml-versioning was created at the suggestion of the TAG as a mechanism for collaboration with XML Schema WG. 19:19:18 q+ to incline towards focussing on XML language 19:19:27 NM: [... about broadening from xml-specific story to a story about strings, with markup as a special case] 19:19:30 (which appeals to me) 19:20:05 q+ 19:20:58 ack ht 19:20:58 ht, you wanted to incline towards focussing on XML language 19:21:17 DO: broadening makes sense to some extent, but there's a limit, and we need to be sure to deliver for XML authors 19:22:25 ack timbl 19:22:34 (surely notation 3 is a webized language that's not XML) 19:22:50 Isn't URI an example of a non-QNamed namespace 19:22:50 (webized meaning: has its terms grounded in URI space) 19:23:02 DanC, remind me what N3's media type is? 19:23:12 I.e., can I follow-my-nose to find out about N3? 19:23:13 text/n3+rdf or some such; registration pending 19:23:33 I thought we set up in Edinburgh that versioning was about the conclusions drawn by a consumer and a producer for any particular document, where the two parties have imperfect agreement on the language they thought they were using. 19:23:39 I like that start a lot, and it's not XML-specific 19:23:42 HT: [...] XML gives us the "follow your nose" principle, with namespaces 19:24:25 Follow your nose seems to give you something very important, which is self description. I'm not convinced that versioning should be only about self-describing documents. 19:24:29 TBL: all stories about versioning depend on a notion of semantics/meaning... 19:26:44 ... at the level of XML, there is only a basic infrastructure. At higher levels, e.g. HTML and RDF, there's more to say 19:27:41 zakim, who is here? 19:27:41 On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL 19:27:43 On IRC I see Norm, timbl, Ed, RRSAgent, Vincent, noah, Zakim, ht, DanC 19:29:42 DC: meanwhile, I have a new .violet file from DO that I intend to check against my changePolicy.n3 work 19:29:53 TBL: I wonder about a 4 part finding: 19:30:03 (1) at the level of representations 19:30:15 (2) at the level of namespaces in XML 19:30:33 (?) [...] in HTML and such 19:30:50 (4) an one about RDF 19:31:05 NM: about strings of characters? 19:31:12 TBL: that's what I meant by (1) 19:32:05 Cool. 19:32:44 DO: let's please have some discussion on public-xml-versioning of the new terminology section 19:32:49 +1 19:33:20 VQ: with regret, it's time to curtail this discussion 19:33:21 +1 19:33:26 Uh, on the previous :-) 19:33:59 VQ: maybe next time we'll get to ns8 19:34:12 I'll try to get back to Jonathan and make progress on ns8 for next week 19:34:28 -DOrchard 19:34:29 -Ht 19:34:30 -Noah 19:34:32 -Norm 19:34:32 -DanC 19:34:33 -Ed_Rice 19:34:34 -Vincent 19:38:29 ADJOURN. 19:39:05 hmm... the archive cover page of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-versioning/ doesn't say that it's a joing tag/xml-schema thingy 19:39:34 disconnecting the lone participant, TimBL, in TAG_Weekly()12:30PM 19:39:35 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 19:39:37 Attendees were Norm, [IBMCambridge], Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL 19:39:56 Maintainer_Email: cmsmcq 19:41:02 in May 2005 DO sent a pointer to http://www.w3.org/XML/2005/xsd-versioning-use-cases/ 19:43:00 hmm... Hoylen answers "Sorry, we are not able to help you" to a question that I think was pretty interesting. 21:41:11 timbl has joined #tagmem