IRC log of tagmem on 2006-02-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:02:46 [RRSAgent]
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18:02:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:02:55 [Zakim]
18:03:38 [DanC]
Meeting: TAG Weekly
18:03:41 [DanC]
Scribe: DanC
18:03:44 [DanC]
Chair: VQ
18:04:00 [DanC]
18:04:22 [DanC]
agenda + Administrative: role call, review records and agenda, plan next meeting
18:04:28 [DanC]
agenda + Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu
18:04:34 [DanC]
agenda + Heartbeats
18:04:44 [DanC]
agenda + Principle of Least Power
18:04:52 [DanC]
agenda + Issue namespaceDocument-8
18:05:04 [DanC]
agenda + Issue XMLVersioning-41
18:05:07 [Zakim]
18:05:32 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
18:05:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Administrative: role call, review records and agenda, plan next meeting" taken up [from DanC]
18:05:36 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
18:05:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard
18:06:31 [DanC]
-> minutes 7 Feb
18:06:39 [DanC]
minutes 7 Feb good enough for me
18:06:47 [Zakim]
18:07:01 [Ed]
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18:07:07 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to meet again 21 Feb
18:07:27 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet again 21 Feb, NDW to scribe
18:07:34 [Zakim]
18:07:57 [DanC]
regrets timbl 21 Feb
18:08:29 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,4,6,5
18:08:29 [Zakim]
ok, DanC
18:09:03 [timbl]
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18:09:06 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to accept minutes 7 Feb
18:09:15 [DanC]
(vq will remove - DRAFT - )
18:09:28 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:09:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu" taken up [from DanC]
18:09:42 [DanC]
-> meeting page
18:11:03 [DanC]
DO: I'm working on the state finding... how about that for the agenda?
18:11:41 [noah]
q+ to say I'm hoping we turn corner on least power before F2F, but if not maybe worth a bit of discussion
18:12:20 [noah]
18:12:34 [DanC]
DC: suggest moving metadataInURI-31 after the other 3 technical things
18:13:09 [DanC]
NM: if we don't finish least power, it might merit ftf discussion. leave it off for now, if the agenda is fluid.
18:13:59 [DanC]
"Monday 27 February: 13:30 - 17:30 @@@"
18:15:29 [DanC]
some sentiment for 2p, some for 1:30
18:16:10 [DanC]
RESOLVED to start 13:30 Monday
18:16:51 [DanC]
NM: did we end up with any liaison meetings scheduled?
18:16:54 [DanC]
VQ: not at this tiem
18:16:57 [DanC]
18:18:03 [DanC]
Ed: previously we had a "what's important for the coming year" session... shall we do that again
18:18:04 [DanC]
18:18:31 [DanC]
DC, HT: I prefer the current contents of the agenda to that sort of thing
18:18:51 [DanC]
NM: perhaps make some time to chat with TV, but otherwise, yes, technical topics
18:19:30 [dorchard]
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18:20:25 [DanC]
TBL: hmm.. indeed, looking forward would be good... do we have a social time scheduled? it's hard to swap between technical topics and looking ahead
18:20:43 [DanC]
DC: perhaps the "what did we learn this week?" session will be sufficient?
18:22:02 [DanC]
HT: I'm constrained to Monday evening for an evening thing
18:22:23 [DanC]
NM: I'll be on US east coast time, so not too late
18:22:53 [DanC]
ACTION: VQ organize a monday evening quiet social event
18:23:04 [timbl]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:23:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL
18:23:17 [DanC]
VQ: around 7pm
18:23:45 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:23:45 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Heartbeats" taken up [from DanC]
18:27:30 [DanC]
DC: there's a convention of publishing on /TR/ at least every 3 months. We haven't done it in over a year. I'm inclined to take something and publish it.
18:27:42 [DanC]
NDW: yes, the ns48 finding is approved
18:29:01 [DanC]
TimBL: how about concatenating the approved findings?
18:29:12 [DanC]
DC: that's more work than I'm offering now
18:29:27 [timbl]
18:29:34 [Ed]
list of findings
18:29:39 [timbl]
18:29:42 [DanC]
18:30:10 [DanC]
(norm, I'm inclined to work from the .html only and not bother with the xml)
18:30:54 [noah]
Speaking of which, the approved finding link at is to the xml
18:30:58 [timbl]
This page contains the following errors:
18:30:58 [timbl]
error on line 17 at column 140: Entity 'http-ident' not defined
18:30:58 [timbl]
error on line 19 at column 199: Entity '' not defined
18:30:58 [timbl]
error on line 20 at column 226: Entity 'draft.monthname' not defined
18:30:58 [timbl]
error on line 21 at column 247: Entity 'draft.year' not defined
18:31:01 [timbl]
error on line 24 at column 283: Entity 'http-ident' not defined
18:31:03 [timbl]
error on line 27 at column 370: Entity 'http-ident' not defined
18:31:06 [timbl]
error on line 30 at column 431: Entity 'http-ident' not defined
18:31:08 [timbl]
error on line 33 at column 488: Entity 'http-ident' not defined
18:31:11 [timbl]
Below is a rendering of the page up to the first error.
18:31:45 [Norm]
What page was that timbl?
18:34:02 [DanC]
TimbL: good to put all this in the SOTD: (1) it's approved by the tag (2) there's lots of other stuff (3) [darn; leaked out already]
18:35:02 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish as a W3C Working Draft
18:35:09 [Norm]
Uhm, with what shortname?
18:35:15 [timbl]
The eventual disposition of this text is not cler, but one possibility is it being integrated wioth other finids into a new AWWW or a second volume AWWW
18:35:43 [timbl]
18:35:59 [DanC]
18:37:23 [DanC]
ACTION NDW: with DanC, publish WD of ns48 finding
18:37:31 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to publish as a W3C Working Draft
18:38:18 [DanC]
VQ: this is just one document; we'll see what we learn from this
18:38:21 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:38:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Principle of Least Power" taken up [from DanC]
18:38:56 [DanC]
-> least power finding, latest version
18:39:06 [DanC]
-> 13 Feb draft
18:40:35 [DanC]
NM: there has been much www-tag discussion of chomsky hierarchies and complexity...
18:40:39 [Norm]
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18:40:56 [Norm]
What publication date should we use for namespaceState, DanC ?
18:41:16 [DanC]
18:41:28 [noah]
There are many dimensions to language power and complexity that should be considered when publishing information. For example, a language with a straightforward syntax may be easier to analyze than an otherwise equivalent one with more complex structure. A language that wraps simple computations in unnecessary mechanics, such as object creation or thread management, may similarly inhibit information extraction. The intention of this finding is neither to rigor
18:41:45 [noah]
necessarily interferes with information reuse. Rather, this finding observes that a variety of characteristics that make languages powerful can complicate or prevent analysis of programs or information conveyed in those languages, and it suggests that such risks be weighed seriously when publishing information on the Web.
18:41:46 [DanC]
HT: why not just say "occam's razor applies to computers too"?
18:41:48 [DanC]
18:41:52 [noah]
Indeed, on the Web, the least powerful language that's suitable should usually be chosen. This is The Rule of Least Power:
18:42:01 [noah]
Good Practice: Use the least powerful language suitable for expressing information, constraints or programs on the World Wide Web.
18:42:15 [Vincent]
ack danc
18:42:19 [timbl]
18:42:39 [Vincent]
ack timbl
18:43:04 [DanC]
DanC: yes, the principle is 2 lines, but what we add is to relate it to the history of web technology development.
18:43:13 [DanC]
... e.g. how HTML is and why
18:43:23 [DanC]
TimBL: yes, examples. CSS vs javascript.
18:43:37 [noah]
18:44:19 [DanC]
(huh? closed and continuous are pretty sharp mathematical concepts.)
18:45:09 [DanC]
TimBL: the fact that you can cascade to CSS stylesheets is a result of a decision to make it declarative
18:45:34 [Vincent]
ack noah
18:45:58 [DanC]
18:46:06 [DanC]
q+ to suggest going specific-to-general
18:47:12 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:47:12 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to suggest going specific-to-general
18:49:07 [noah]
q+ to discuss scope of this rewrite...are we thrashing?
18:49:11 [ht]
HST doesn't understand why Turning-completeness is bad
18:49:27 [ht]
Prolog is Turing-complete, and dead easy to analyze!
18:50:07 [DanC]
hmm... I thought would be impossible/impractical if the web had used TeX rather than HTML
18:50:11 [ht]
SQL is Turing-complete (or close), and probably more analyzed than almost any other language
18:50:27 [Vincent]
ack noah
18:50:27 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to discuss scope of this rewrite...are we thrashing?
18:50:30 [DanC]
the analysis of SQL is precicely on the bits that are *not* turning complete, no?
18:55:54 [raman]
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18:56:18 [raman]
belated regrets -- I shamefully admit that I just plain forgot to call in...
18:57:10 [DanC]
VQ, I suggest a straw poll: how many think it's reasonable to approve as is.
18:58:04 [noah]
If you have a Turing-complete program, you don't in general know whether it even gets done
18:58:34 [noah]
If I have a table in a relational database, or a list of name/value pairs, I don't have that problem.
18:58:50 [noah]
DC: The halting problem is crucial. Most of the other things you want to know follow from it.
18:59:05 [DanC]
no, I didn't say it's crucial.
18:59:14 [noah]
Sorry, that's what I thought I heard you say.
18:59:21 [DanC]
I just said you can't analyze scheme nor prolog
18:59:51 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
18:59:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL
19:02:48 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to approve "The Rule of Least Power" as 12 Feb draft, incorporating edits agreed by from NDW and NM
19:03:02 [DanC]
19:03:22 [raman]
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19:03:30 [DanC]
ACTION NM: announce approved finding, when discussion with NDW concludes
19:03:42 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
19:03:42 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Issue XMLVersioning-41" taken up [from DanC]
19:04:43 [DanC]
ACTION DO: contextualize his scenarios, such as more on what is happening with SOAP and WSDL
19:04:44 [Norm]
Returning to the publication of namespaceState, I chose 23 Feb as the publication date because that's the last day before the moritorium.
19:05:02 [DanC]
DO: I did some work on this...
19:05:10 [DanC]
... sent them to the schema WG a few weeks ago
19:05:58 [DanC]
... haven't seen [which?] draft posted as I expected
19:06:40 [DanC]
... I hope to talk with interested people at the TP in France
19:07:34 [DanC]
... so I think this is done
19:07:37 [DanC]
DC: pointer?
19:08:01 [DanC]
DC/HT: getting it public has taken a back seat to other things
19:08:10 [DanC]
er... rather: DO/HT
19:08:51 [DanC]
NM: I think we have license to make this public already
19:09:03 [DanC]
HT: yes, if you can follow up, that would be fine
19:09:30 [DanC]
-- done
19:10:02 [ht]
DO: Appropriate list is
19:10:10 [DanC]
ACTION DO: with NM continue and extrapolate the versioning work DO et al have been doing already, updating the terminology section.
19:10:53 [DanC]
-> terminology section update from DO 13 Feb
19:11:50 [DanC]
DO: I got some comments re first/last name from Misha
19:11:58 [DanC]
DO: main list is public-xml-versioning
19:12:25 [DanC]
not necessarily new, ht. RRSagent groks continued/done actions too
19:12:30 [DanC]
or at least: scribe.perl does
19:12:32 [DanC]
19:12:43 [Vincent]
ack danc
19:13:33 [DanC]
DC: hmm... public-xml-versioning... partial understanding isn't limited to xml
19:16:24 [timbl]
19:17:14 [Vincent]
ack timbl
19:18:13 [DanC]
DO: public-xml-versioning was created at the suggestion of the TAG as a mechanism for collaboration with XML Schema WG.
19:19:18 [ht]
q+ to incline towards focussing on XML language
19:19:27 [DanC]
NM: [... about broadening from xml-specific story to a story about strings, with markup as a special case]
19:19:30 [DanC]
(which appeals to me)
19:20:05 [timbl]
19:20:58 [Vincent]
ack ht
19:20:58 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to incline towards focussing on XML language
19:21:17 [DanC]
DO: broadening makes sense to some extent, but there's a limit, and we need to be sure to deliver for XML authors
19:22:25 [Vincent]
ack timbl
19:22:34 [DanC]
(surely notation 3 is a webized language that's not XML)
19:22:50 [noah]
Isn't URI an example of a non-QNamed namespace
19:22:50 [DanC]
(webized meaning: has its terms grounded in URI space)
19:23:02 [ht]
DanC, remind me what N3's media type is?
19:23:12 [ht]
I.e., can I follow-my-nose to find out about N3?
19:23:13 [DanC]
text/n3+rdf or some such; registration pending
19:23:33 [noah]
I thought we set up in Edinburgh that versioning was about the conclusions drawn by a consumer and a producer for any particular document, where the two parties have imperfect agreement on the language they thought they were using.
19:23:39 [noah]
I like that start a lot, and it's not XML-specific
19:23:42 [DanC]
HT: [...] XML gives us the "follow your nose" principle, with namespaces
19:24:25 [noah]
Follow your nose seems to give you something very important, which is self description. I'm not convinced that versioning should be only about self-describing documents.
19:24:29 [DanC]
TBL: all stories about versioning depend on a notion of semantics/meaning...
19:26:44 [DanC]
... at the level of XML, there is only a basic infrastructure. At higher levels, e.g. HTML and RDF, there's more to say
19:27:41 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
19:27:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL
19:27:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Norm, timbl, Ed, RRSAgent, Vincent, noah, Zakim, ht, DanC
19:29:42 [DanC]
DC: meanwhile, I have a new .violet file from DO that I intend to check against my changePolicy.n3 work
19:29:53 [DanC]
TBL: I wonder about a 4 part finding:
19:30:03 [DanC]
(1) at the level of representations
19:30:15 [DanC]
(2) at the level of namespaces in XML
19:30:33 [DanC]
(?) [...] in HTML and such
19:30:50 [DanC]
(4) an one about RDF
19:31:05 [DanC]
NM: about strings of characters?
19:31:12 [DanC]
TBL: that's what I meant by (1)
19:32:05 [noah]
19:32:44 [DanC]
DO: let's please have some discussion on public-xml-versioning of the new terminology section
19:32:49 [DanC]
19:33:20 [DanC]
VQ: with regret, it's time to curtail this discussion
19:33:21 [Norm]
19:33:26 [Norm]
Uh, on the previous :-)
19:33:59 [DanC]
VQ: maybe next time we'll get to ns8
19:34:12 [Norm]
I'll try to get back to Jonathan and make progress on ns8 for next week
19:34:28 [Zakim]
19:34:29 [Zakim]
19:34:30 [Zakim]
19:34:32 [Zakim]
19:34:32 [Zakim]
19:34:33 [Zakim]
19:34:34 [Zakim]
19:38:29 [DanC]
19:39:05 [DanC]
hmm... the archive cover page of doesn't say that it's a joing tag/xml-schema thingy
19:39:34 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, TimBL, in TAG_Weekly()12:30PM
19:39:35 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
19:39:37 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, [IBMCambridge], Noah, Vincent, Ht, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, TimBL
19:39:56 [DanC]
Maintainer_Email: cmsmcq
19:41:02 [DanC]
in May 2005 DO sent a pointer to
19:43:00 [DanC]
hmm... Hoylen answers "Sorry, we are not able to help you" to a question that I think was pretty interesting.
21:41:11 [timbl]
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