IRC log of htmltf on 2006-02-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:59 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:56:09 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
13:56:19 [RalphS]
13:57:15 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-02-06
14:00:57 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
14:00:59 [Steven]
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14:01:31 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:31 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:34 [Zakim]
14:01:59 [MarkB_]
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14:02:30 [danbri]
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14:03:11 [benadida]
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14:04:42 [Zakim]
14:04:49 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
14:06:05 [Zakim]
14:07:04 [RalphS]
Regrets: Jeremy
14:07:35 [Steven]
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14:08:26 [RalphS]
agenda+ CURIE consensus
14:08:31 [RalphS]
agenda+ RDF Containers
14:08:47 [RalphS]
Topic: Action Item Review
14:09:19 [RalphS]
Steven: XHTML2 Editor's draft announcement still pending
14:09:45 [RalphS]
ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in]
14:09:46 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:10:13 [RalphS]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup on edge case [recorded in]
14:10:13 [RalphS]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in]
14:10:13 [RalphS]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in]
14:10:51 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in]
14:10:54 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:11:02 [RalphS]
Ben: awaiting discussion of RDF/A Containers
14:11:10 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in]
14:11:12 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:11:33 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben write out a proposal for how OL and UL turn into rdf:Seq and rdf:Bag [recorded in]
14:11:36 [RalphS]
-- done
14:11:47 [RalphS]
-> RDF/A Containers
14:11:56 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben update the editor's draft to add to section 2 [recorded in]
14:12:19 [danbri]
[rdf:Bag, eek.... i'm out of touch...]
14:12:27 [RalphS]
-- done
14:14:41 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax
14:14:42 [Zakim]
14:14:54 [RalphS]
zakim, ipcaller is Jeremy
14:14:54 [Zakim]
+Jeremy; got it
14:15:59 [RalphS]
Mark, Ben: the citation to the triples syntax does not need to hold up the first working draft
14:16:06 [RalphS]
Topic: getting the Primer published
14:16:59 [jeremy]
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14:17:37 [RalphS]
Steven: Primer is being served with wrong character encoding
14:18:32 [RalphS]
Ben: saw that, but might be confusing to debug until the .html variant exists
14:18:48 [RalphS]
Steven: just change the META element in the doc
14:19:18 [RalphS]
... the document really is ISO-Latin-1
14:19:30 [jeremy]
check documentation for xsl:output
14:19:36 [jeremy]
I think it has a flag for encoding
14:20:10 [RalphS]
Jeremy: the HTML output method of XSLT defaults to Latin-1, I believe
14:20:33 [RalphS]
... so look for a flag to specify UTF-8 as the output encoding
14:20:41 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue
14:21:15 [jeremy]
14:21:15 [jeremy]
method = "xml" | "html" | "text" | qname-but-not-ncname
14:21:15 [jeremy]
version = nmtoken
14:21:15 [jeremy]
encoding = string
14:21:15 [jeremy]
omit-xml-declaration = "yes" | "no"
14:21:16 [jeremy]
standalone = "yes" | "no"
14:21:19 [jeremy]
doctype-public = string
14:21:20 [jeremy]
doctype-system = string
14:21:22 [jeremy]
cdata-section-elements = qnames
14:21:24 [jeremy]
indent = "yes" | "no"
14:21:26 [jeremy]
media-type = string />
14:21:28 [jeremy]
try encoding="utf-8"
14:22:53 [RalphS]
Topic: Implementation status
14:23:07 [RalphS]
Jeremy: the first attempt at implementing things other than verification
14:23:16 [RalphS]
... Ralph reported some bugs, not too surprising
14:23:47 [RalphS]
Ralph: I have neglected to provide test cases to Jeremy for the bugs I believe I found
14:24:41 [RalphS]
Ben: our issues page lists several issues that I believe we've resolved
14:24:44 [benadida]
14:25:04 [RalphS]
Ben: let's document those we have resolved explicitly
14:25:25 [RalphS]
Topic: 1. QNames in href and about
14:25:36 [RalphS]
Ben: this issue we resolved by CURIE
14:25:59 [RalphS]
Steven: yes, we've resolved to use option B
14:26:27 [RalphS]
Ralph: there is not Team consensus on the CURIE proposal so I must abstain
14:26:47 [RalphS]
Steven: I told the HTML WG long ago that the TF chose option B
14:26:57 [RalphS]
RESOLVED: issue 1 option B chosen
14:27:12 [RalphS]
DanBri: abstain as I've been out of the loop for a while
14:27:48 [RalphS]
Topic: 5. (Local) blank node identifiers
14:28:09 [RalphS]
Ben: I believe we've tentatively resolved this again using CURIEs
14:28:21 [benadida]
14:28:26 [benadida]
14:28:37 [benadida]
_:foo is the CURIE
14:28:42 [benadida]
[_:foo] is the CURIE/URI
14:28:45 [danbri]
I don't see 'blank' or 'anonymous' in
14:28:48 [danbri]
(as steven says)
14:29:05 [danbri]
q+ to suggest the _ be made reserved at least in CURIE
14:29:09 [RalphS]
Ben: '_' is the mechanism that specifies this is a bnode
14:29:29 [RalphS]
... this may be missing from the current documentation
14:29:47 [RalphS]
... we've chosen not to raise the topic of bnodes in the Primer
14:30:13 [jeremy]
(note: "_" is a valid xmlns ... )
14:31:23 [RalphS]
Ralph: the intent is that there is a local identifier in the document that is not exported
14:31:54 [RalphS]
Jeremy: DAWG has been clear in SPARQL that applications _may_ reveal their bnode identifiers
14:32:18 [RalphS]
DanBri: bnode identifiers must not be confused with URIs
14:32:59 [RalphS]
Mark: so we have to be careful to specify that the expansion is to either a URI or a bnode
14:33:07 [danbri]
[is there an escaping mechanism in CURIE? if i wanted a CURIE that began with _ for some non-bnode purpose?]
14:33:16 [jeremy]
NCName ::= (Letter | '_') (NCNameChar)*
14:35:45 [RalphS]
Jeremy: choosing a different leading character adds weight to our conclusion
14:36:14 [RalphS]
... as QNames in N3 are misleading; here's another case where N3 differs from QName spec
14:37:29 [RalphS]
Ralph: '#' might convey the idea that these are local identifiers
14:37:31 [benadida]
about="#foo" vs. about="[#:foo]"
14:38:20 [RalphS]
Mark: perhaps just [:foo]
14:38:29 [RalphS]
Jeremy: N3 uses :foo for the default namespace
14:39:12 [RalphS]
Mark: if you don't know a mapping for '_' then we could still specify that URI names and bnode identifiers are disjoint
14:39:30 [RalphS]
Jeremy: we don't actually need to support people who use "_" for a namespace prefix
14:39:42 [RalphS]
Mark: but this creates an issue for the processor implementation
14:39:54 [RalphS]
Jeremy: could say that any prefix that is undefined maps to itself
14:40:08 [RalphS]
... so http: maps to itself when you're expecting a CURIe
14:41:43 [RalphS]
Ralph: I like #foo and #:foo
14:41:49 [jeremy]
14:42:04 [jeremy]
14:42:17 [RalphS]
Mark: another alternative ...
14:42:33 [RalphS]
... we have the idea of a CURIE that is understood as a CURIE in context without '[]'
14:43:05 [RalphS]
... but Steven also suggested an alternative leading character
14:43:15 [jeremy]
_: is bnode, @pre:foo is qnamelike, as is @_:foo
14:43:32 [RalphS]
Ben: it may be that bnodes will only appear in the case where '[]' is required
14:44:18 [RalphS]
... so '_' inside '[]' could be defined as different from '_' in QName
14:45:20 [RalphS]
Jeremy: leading '@' could behave in the way that '[]' have been
14:45:37 [RalphS]
Mark: in some situations we want to write both a:b and _:b
14:45:57 [RalphS]
... so we have context in which the type is implicit
14:46:10 [RalphS]
... but we also have [a:b] and [_:b] to make the type explicit
14:46:48 [RalphS]
Ben: as bnodes appear only in subject and object positions, the current syntax forces bnode identifiers to be in '[]'
14:46:58 [RalphS]
Mark: but I'm trying to find a way not not have to change the meaning of '_'
14:47:47 [RalphS]
Ben: clearly issue 5 is still open; I will summarize the options now on the table
14:48:05 [RalphS]
Steven: I believe issues 4 and 7 are essentially the same and can be combined under one discussion
14:48:28 [RalphS]
... [syntactic sugar for role (4) and class (7) attributes
14:48:43 [RalphS]
Topic: 12. CURIEs in Predicate Attributes
14:49:26 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers
14:50:03 [RalphS]
Ben: we've not had any debate about whether 'about' and 'href' can both contain CURIEs
14:50:30 [MarkB_]
14:50:38 [danbri]
14:51:05 [RalphS]
... if we restrict these to CURIE only, not CURIE/URI, we get backwards compatibility
14:51:05 [danbri]
re html link types vocab, that's at (can it go on the issues list?)
14:51:25 [RalphS]
Mark: I think it would be good to require CURIE syntax as the default namespace might not be the HTML namespace
14:51:38 [RalphS]
... as we've resolved issue 11
14:51:39 [Steven]
14:52:32 [RalphS]
... important consistency of having attributes all behave in the same way; '[]' generally required, URI permitted
14:52:54 [RalphS]
... so an author does not have to go to the effort of defining a namespace just to use a single URI
14:53:22 [RalphS]
... e.g. things like SKOS where the document contains a taxonomy
14:53:38 [RalphS]
... author would get fed-up having to define lots of namespaces
14:53:41 [danbri]
[I helped SKOS but Alistair Miles is Dr SKOS :]
14:54:11 [benadida]
ack MarkB_
14:54:13 [RalphS]
... but I don't see a problem with the processor having to explicitly recognize these special terms; it's a known, finite list
14:54:32 [danbri]
(I'm wary of too many builtins)
14:54:41 [RalphS]
Steven: disagree; one of our aims is to make this all look as much as possible like traditional HTML
14:54:57 [RalphS]
... [it would be bad] to have rel='next' mean something different than href='next'
14:55:13 [RalphS]
... even though we think of 'rel' value as being a URI, the World doesn't see it that way
14:55:25 [benadida]
+1 to Steven
14:55:36 [RalphS]
... I think that rel is something different for an HTML author, therefore a different syntax is not a problem
14:56:03 [RalphS]
Jeremy: it's awkward to create namespace prefixes but not hopeless
14:56:06 [danbri]
(if rel='next' and href='next' mean different things, that'll be hard to teach...)
14:56:06 [benadida]
q+ to mention the [] syntax
14:56:13 [benadida]
ack steven
14:56:28 [RalphS]
... in the case of an embedded taxonomy it's not a huge pain to delcare one more namespace
14:57:03 [benadida]
ack me
14:57:03 [Zakim]
benadida, you wanted to mention the [] syntax
14:57:05 [RalphS]
... the case of only needing to use a prefix once is the bigger nuissance
14:57:31 [RalphS]
Ben: I favor Steven's approach
14:57:46 [RalphS]
... the '[]' syntax is the weakest proposal from this Task Force
14:58:03 [RalphS]
... it's the proposal that has raised the most concern from outside
14:58:26 [RalphS]
... so the more we force it to be used the more objection we can expect
14:58:50 [RalphS]
... we can special-case all the strings in the current HTML spec
14:59:01 [RalphS]
Steven: special-casing causes extensibility to go out the window
14:59:14 [danbri]
(I'm reminded of the xpointer registry...)
14:59:26 [RalphS]
... if we want to add a new string in the next version we have to special-case it too
14:59:32 [danbri]
(ie. )
14:59:43 [RalphS]
Mark: not really special casing, just saying the URI base is different
14:59:57 [RalphS]
... but we do lose consistency no matter which choice we make
15:00:31 [benadida]
15:00:43 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12
15:00:47 [RalphS]
Topic: RDF/A Containers
15:01:13 [RalphS]
-> proposal for RDF/A Containers
15:01:15 [danbri]
(I quite strongly disagree that they have semantic value, except for rdf:Seq which rss needs)
15:01:36 [RalphS]
Ben: I think there is a good match between OL, UL, and LI to RDF Containers
15:02:16 [danbri]
(I commented in irc to avoid derailingthe audio; sorry. I came late to this... might be wrong point to comment)
15:02:22 [RalphS]
... UL, OL, and NL can have specific RDF types
15:02:51 [RalphS]
... I've been careful (see Section 3) that none of the triples previously generated by RDF/A are affected by this proposal
15:03:08 [RalphS]
... e.g. see 3.3.2 example
15:03:25 [RalphS]
... the about, rel, and href attributes still generate the same triples as before
15:03:34 [RalphS]
... the UL and LI semantics only add new triples
15:03:47 [RalphS]
... so I think this approach makes sense and is not too confusing
15:04:06 [Zakim]
15:04:09 [RalphS]
... so please send thoughts to the mailing list
15:04:24 [RalphS]
... next week is a US Holiday
15:04:36 [RalphS]
Jeremy: regrets for next week; I'm on holiday
15:05:26 [RalphS]
Steve: 2 weeks from today is Technical Plenary week
15:05:55 [RalphS]
Ben: propose to meet Tuesday 21 March
15:05:59 [Steven]
15:06:20 [RalphS]
RESOLVED: next meeting Tuesday 21 Feb 1400 UTC
15:06:23 [Zakim]
15:06:24 [Zakim]
15:06:25 [Zakim]
15:06:30 [Zakim]
15:06:31 [Zakim]
15:06:32 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:06:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Mark_Birbeck, Ben_Adida, danbri], Jeremy
15:06:53 [Steven]
15:10:04 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make this record public
15:10:29 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:10:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
15:11:03 [benadida]
benadida has left #htmltf
15:12:02 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
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Zakim has left #htmltf
15:12:05 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in :
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in] [1]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in] [2]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in] [3]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben write out a proposal for how OL and UL turn into rdf:Seq and rdf:Bag [recorded in] [4]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben update the editor's draft to add to section 2 [recorded in] [5]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax [6]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue [7]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers [8]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12 [9]
15:12:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in