IRC log of dawg on 2006-01-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:31:12 [RRSAgent]

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14:31:12 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/31-dawg-irc

14:31:18 [Zakim]

+Libby_Miller

14:31:25 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:31:26 [EliasT]

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14:31:37 [Zakim]

+Kendall_Clark

14:31:48 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:31:53 [EliasT]

Zakim, IBMCambridge is me

14:31:53 [Zakim]

+EliasT; got it

14:32:43 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:32:43 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC]

14:32:53 [DanC]

Meeting: DAWG Weekly

14:32:54 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:32:56 [DanC]

Chair: DanC

14:33:03 [DanC]

ScribeNick: SerT

14:33:24 [DanC]

Scribe: Sergio Tessaris

14:33:27 [SvenGroppe]

Zakim, Axel_Polleres is me

14:33:27 [Zakim]

+SvenGroppe; got it

14:33:31 [AndyS]

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14:33:31 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:33:31 [Zakim]

On the phone I see SerT, LeeF, SvenGroppe, Libby_Miller, DanC, Kendall_Clark, EliasT, EricP

14:35:05 [DanC]

agenda + schema validity [EricP]

14:35:38 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:35:45 [SteveH]

Zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveH

14:35:45 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:35:51 [SerT]

agenda + comment status

14:36:07 [DanC]

Zakim, agenda?

14:36:07 [Zakim]

I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:

14:36:08 [Zakim]

1. Convene [from DanC]

14:36:09 [Zakim]

2. Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD) [from DanC]

14:36:11 [Zakim]

3. Protocol for syntax errors. See thread: SPARQL: Error handling [from DanC]

14:36:14 [Zakim]

4. comments related to rdfSemantics, owlDisjunction [from DanC]

14:36:15 [Zakim]

5. Toward CR [from DanC]

14:36:16 [Zakim]

6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]

14:36:17 [Zakim]

7. schema validity [from EricP via DanC]

14:36:18 [Zakim]

8. comment status [from SerT]

14:36:33 [patH]

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14:37:06 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:38:02 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/att-0298/26-dawg-minutes.html#item04 minutes 26 Jan

14:38:09 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/att-0298/26-dawg-minutes.html minutes 26 Jan

14:38:28 [DanC]

RESOLVED to approve minutes 26 Jan

14:38:55 [ericP]

AndyS___, definitely W3C?

14:39:13 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:39:14 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH

14:39:21 [DanC]

next meeting 6 Feb?

14:39:26 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:39:26 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF

14:39:44 [DanC]

RESOLVED: to meet again 6 Feb. Lee to scribe.

14:39:53 [libby]

7 feb?

14:39:59 [DanC]

RESOLVED: to meet again 7 Feb. Lee to scribe.

14:40:19 [bijan]

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14:40:30 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:40:30 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD)" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:50 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-rdf-sparql-protocol-20060125/ new protocol WD

14:40:58 [kendallclark]

I'd like to thank all the little people...

14:42:22 [DanC]

ACTION KC: work on edited changelog since 2005-09-14 LCWD

14:43:04 [DanC]

the [SRD] cite

14:43:34 [DanC]

ACTION KC: update protocol references to [SRD] and WSDL

14:43:52 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-rdf-sparql-XMLres-20060125/ new results format spec

14:44:00 [DanC]

Regrets: Souri

14:44:37 [SerT]

Regrets: Enrico

14:44:56 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:45:12 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P10 is AndyS

14:45:12 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:46:27 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: arrange for announcement of results format spec

14:46:52 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:46:52 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Protocol for syntax errors. See thread: SPARQL: Error handling" taken up [from DanC]

14:51:04 [JosDeRoo]

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14:51:50 [Zakim]

+Jos_De_Roo

14:54:36 [kendallclark]

When the value of the query type is not a legal sequence of characters in the language defined by the SPARQL grammar, the MalformedQuery fault message should be returned. According to the Fault Replaces Message Rule, if a WSDL fault is returned, including MalformedQuery, an Out Message must not be returned.

14:57:50 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

14:57:50 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:59:21 [DanC]

cases: (1) a syntax error that returns QueryRequestRefused (2) a syntax error (i.e. extension) that returns an Out Message

15:02:00 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:02:00 [Zakim]

On the phone I see SerT, LeeF, SvenGroppe, Libby_Miller, DanC, Kendall_Clark, EliasT, EricP, SteveH (muted), PatH, AndyS, Jos_De_Roo

15:02:29 [JosDeRoo]

zakim, Jos_De_Roo is really me

15:02:29 [Zakim]

+JosDeRoo; got it

15:02:50 [SteveH]

Zakim, unmute me

15:02:50 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

15:02:51 [kendallclark]

I'll do some scribing, then:

15:03:14 [AndyS___]

I support case (2) - whether that is a SPARQL service, I don't know

15:03:23 [kendallclark]

I prefer a design where a service can support a superset of the language and can return an Out Message even though the request is technically a syntax error.

15:04:21 [kendallclark]

As for (1), I'd be happy to say that MalformedQuery fault has precedence over QueryRequestRefused; that is, when a service may return either, it must return MalformedQuery -- but I'm not sure how *this* preference interacts with my other preference.

15:05:57 [SerT]

option (2) requires (possibly) multiple server endpoints

15:06:02 [kendallclark]

yes, and that's also an implementation burden on *clients* to be in some sense syntax checkers...

15:07:59 [DanC]

AFS: (1) should be allowed, (2) not

15:08:31 [AndyS___]

I also support protocol extensions :-)

15:08:51 [DanC]

SH: like AFS

15:10:14 [DanC]

EP: yes please (2)...

15:10:22 [SerT]

option (2) allows language extensions

15:10:27 [Zakim]

-Libby_Miller

15:10:54 [DanC]

EP: yes, (1) is allowed

15:13:02 [ericP]

EP again fuzzy on the ramifications of 1

15:13:55 [kendallclark]

but what if it's "FRM <

15:13:56 [kendallclark]

...>"

15:14:23 [ericP]

SELECT * --THINK_REALLY_HARD WHERE { ?s ?p ?o }

15:18:13 [Zakim]

+Libby_Miller

15:18:39 [kendallclark]

how about: <strong><strong>should</strong></strong>? :>

15:19:04 [LeeF]

works for me !

15:20:41 [AndyS___]

"should" means "implementers must think and have good reason not to follow the text"

15:20:54 [kendallclark]

So how about this proposal for fixing the spec:

15:21:04 [kendallclark]

1. Leave the language in the spec alone.

15:21:20 [kendallclark]

2. Add a bit about deploying a separate interface if you want to deploy sparql++

15:24:37 [kendallclark]

(We only want to extend the protocol, which isn't really at issue here. That's clearly a separate WSDL interface. Done.)

15:27:35 [kendallclark]

I don't care about the label on the box, Eric. I just said that. :>

15:29:07 [kendallclark]

hmm, +1 to pat's suggestion. it's complex-er, but I think it's reasonable.

15:30:06 [LeeF]

All talk of SPARQL Extended interfaces smack of lack of interoperability to me

15:30:13 [LeeF]

smack?

15:30:14 [LeeF]

stink?

15:30:19 [kendallclark]

yes, stink.

15:30:23 [kendallclark]

this ALL stinks. :>

15:31:29 [LeeF]

Yes

15:33:47 [patH]

gentlemen, please...

15:34:25 [DanC]

I'd like: ACTION KC: add an example of a "SPARQL++" query in the spec, and think about a separate interface

15:35:21 [AndyS___]

I have users using http://host/x?query=...&stylesheet=...

15:35:21 [LeeF]

Are there syntaxes differences for OWL entailment?

15:35:33 [LeeF]

"syntaxes differences"? uggh, I'm full of bad writing today.

15:35:39 [SerT]

I don't think so

15:35:56 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: provide a "SPARQL++" example query in the accessingCollections neighborhood

15:36:05 [DanC]

ACTION KC: add an example of a "SPARQL++" query in the spec, and think about a separate interface

15:36:43 [ericP]

I note that I am advocating motion towards a slippery slope (and apologize).

15:36:45 [LeeF]

Related, but orthogonal.

15:38:59 [ericP]

patH, could you give me a notional SPARQL query that would ask for results of OWL entailment (and is not a currently valid SPARQL query)?

15:39:26 [DanC]

Please have opinions formed and on the WG list by agenda-building time on Mon 6 Jan

15:39:35 [patH]

Eric, I can make one up.

15:39:35 [LeeF]

Mon 6 Feb

15:39:43 [DanC]

Please have opinions formed and on the WG list by agenda-building time on Mon 6 Feb. [tx]

15:39:55 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:39:55 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "comments related to rdfSemantics, owlDisjunction" taken up [from DanC]

15:40:30 [kendallclark]

hmm, eric, FWIW, i'd like 2: one from pat re: owl, one from you re: the list functionality stufff you were talking about earlier re: annotea

15:40:33 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0296.html Draft response to: Re: major technical: blank nodes

15:40:33 [kendallclark]

reasonable

15:40:34 [kendallclark]

?

15:40:49 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

15:40:49 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

15:42:23 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Jan/0073.html Dan's [OK?] msg

15:46:33 [SerT]

Dan's answer is fine

15:48:49 [LeeF]

link to PFPS original message?

15:49:00 [SerT]

PH to respond to PFPS comments

15:49:12 [DanC]

ACTION

15:49:30 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#rdfSemantics

15:50:25 [ericP]

kendallclark, re 2 examples, yup that was my plan (well, at least those two)

15:51:48 [Zakim]

-Libby_Miller

15:52:36 [bijan]

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15:52:47 [LeeF]

There's also a postponed issue there, isn't there?

15:53:07 [DanC]

partial reply to Barstow: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0008.html

15:53:11 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#accessingCollections

15:53:26 [kendallclark]

(I was just wishing this morning that we'd gone with Versa for more of our syntax. ;>)

15:54:50 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: complete response to Barstow

15:55:13 [Zakim]

-SteveH

15:55:39 [SerT]

ACTION patH: respond to PFPS comments

15:55:47 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: draft reply to Wood

15:56:00 [DanC]

agenda?

15:56:08 [kendallclark]

zakim, mute me

15:56:11 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:56:20 [DanC]

AndyS: I'm also working on Fred's editorial stuff.

15:56:46 [kendallclark]

zakim, unmute me

15:56:46 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:56:55 [DanC]

ADJOURN

15:57:12 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

15:58:33 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

15:58:40 [LeeF]

thanks, everyone.

15:58:44 [Zakim]

-LeeF

15:59:41 [Zakim]

-EliasT

15:59:41 [Zakim]

-PatH

16:00:50 [Zakim]

-JosDeRoo

16:03:24 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:03:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/31-dawg-minutes.html DanC

16:03:40 [Zakim]

-SerT

16:03:44 [SerT]

SerT has left #dawg

16:03:49 [DanC]

ugh... I get 404 there; I guess the mirrors will catch up

16:03:58 [AndyS]

Visible now

16:04:20 [Zakim]

-AndyS

16:05:14 [DanC]

. http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/

16:05:48 [AndyS]

A couple of v minor diffences to SPARQL.

16:10:27 [DanC]

DATATYPE(xsd:byte(200)) ?

16:11:03 [Zakim]

-SvenGroppe

16:11:08 [SvenGroppe]

SvenGroppe has left #dawg

16:12:51 [DanC]

>>> 0.1

16:12:51 [DanC]

0.10000000000000001

16:17:09 [ericP]

todo += show danc the TypePromotion tests

16:18:23 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#constructor-functions

16:18:24 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#casting-from-primitive-to-primitive

16:21:35 [ericP]

type error is defined in XQuery 1.0: An XML Query Language [XQUERY] section 2.3.1, Kinds of Errors.

16:24:50 [ericP]

SPARQL Query todo += FOG0001

16:25:42 [ericP]

FILTER (xsd:int(65536) = ?x)

16:27:17 [Zakim]

-DanC

16:27:29 [Zakim]

-EricP

16:27:30 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended

16:27:32 [Zakim]

Attendees were SerT, LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, Kendall_Clark, EliasT, EricP, SvenGroppe, SteveH, PatH, AndyS, JosDeRoo

18:11:38 [Zakim]

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18:24:56 [AndyS]

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18:51:42 [SteveH]

SteveH has left #dawg

19:38:15 [ericP]

DanC, wherever did we got with sameNodeAs?

19:38:32 [DanC]

with what?

19:38:52 [ericP]

the kinda nonmon = problem

19:39:14 [DanC]

I don't recall.

19:40:04 [ericP]

FILTER (my:integer(?x) = 5)

19:40:20 [DanC]

oh... I recall you had an idea for a separate value-equal and term-equal syntax. I liked that idea. I guess it got garbage collected, though, since the valueTesting is now closed

19:40:24 [ericP]

say ?x was bound to "5"

19:40:42 [ericP]

interesting. could be handy now for these test cases

19:41:03 [DanC]

you'll have to use your judgement on whether to re-open

19:41:33 [LeeF]

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19:41:41 [ericP]

i guess i can test lexical value and datatype

19:42:08 [ericP]

if both are the same, RDF semantics says it's the same term

19:42:56 [ericP]

now have to see if XPath casting functions even produce a lexical value

19:43:50 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#casting

19:44:46 [ericP]

[[

19:45:17 [ericP]

[Constructor functions] convert a source value, SV, of a source type, ST, to a target value, TV, of the given target type, TT, with identical semantics and different syntax.

19:45:20 [ericP]

]]

19:46:08 [ericP]

what are the semantics of 5 and how do they compare to the semantics of "5"?

19:46:23 [ericP]

you're really not taking this walk with me, are you

19:52:42 [DanC]

sorry, as I just wrote to w3t-mit, "Kyle, my 1st grader, has a school program that I'd like to see." I'm on my way out

19:53:56 [ericP]

cheers

19:54:14 [DanC]

btw... drop by #dig (on freenode) if you can. Have you met Ron? he's working on dbview

19:54:33 [DanC]

he's working on the foreign key stuff; I pointed him at the test cases we did eaons ago.

19:54:59 [DanC]

[crowell_work] (n=crowell@30-7-45.wireless.csail.mit.edu) : Robert Crowel

19:55:02 [DanC]

s/Ron/Rob/

19:55:11 [DanC]

RRSAgent, stop