IRC log of eo on 2006-01-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:25:08 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/27-eo-irc

13:25:17 [Zakim]

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13:25:27 [Justin]

zakim, this will be eowg

13:25:27 [Zakim]

ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

13:25:35 [Justin]

Meeting: EOWG

13:26:19 [Justin]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2006JanMar/0029.html

13:26:27 [judy]

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13:27:21 [Justin]

Regrets: Wayne, Jack, Tanguy

13:29:25 [Zakim]

WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started

13:29:32 [Zakim]

+Bingham

13:30:55 [Zakim]

+Shawn

13:31:18 [Zakim]

+Loughborough

13:31:49 [Zakim]

+Judy

13:32:43 [Zakim]

+Henk

13:32:46 [Zakim]

+Shadi

13:33:02 [Zakim]

+Justin_Thorp

13:33:43 [Zakim]

+Pasquale_Popolizio

13:35:39 [shawn]

scribe: harvey

13:36:36 [Zakim]

+Doyle_Saylor

13:37:01 [judy]

topic: Outreach Updates

13:37:12 [shawn]

scribenick: shawn

13:37:12 [Nm]

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13:37:25 [shawn]

scribenick: Nm

13:37:37 [Nm]

Harvey trying to scribe

13:38:45 [Nm]

Deadline 6 Feb for tech plenary; link on wai page

13:41:53 [Nm]

Boston IA

13:41:58 [shawn]

harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. demo by [PJ Gardner] of Krug's redesigned site that looks the same & is more accessible

13:42:11 [Nm]

Topic: BAD demo

13:42:26 [Justin]

zakim, please mute me

13:42:26 [Zakim]

Justin_Thorp should now be muted

13:43:49 [shadi]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2006JanMar/0030.html

13:43:50 [shawn]

s/harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. demo by [PJ Gardner] of Krug's redesigned site that looks the same & is more accessible/harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. however, Krug's site has accessibility problems - [PJ Gardner] demo-ed redesign of Krug's site that looks the same & is more accessible. Krug open to implementing.

13:44:38 [Nm]

Judy wish 45 minutes on before/after

13:45:28 [Liam]

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13:45:42 [Zakim]

+Liam_McGee

13:45:48 [Nm]

shadi: more to go; today focus on overall navigation and structure of demo site

13:46:30 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/

13:47:16 [Nm]

Added briefer description; and a site map of pages in suite

13:47:29 [judy]

zakim, who's here?

13:47:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp (muted), Pasquale_Popolizio (muted), Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee (muted)

13:47:31 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Liam, Nm, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shawn, pasquale, shadi

13:47:45 [Nm]

Coming links on left nav bar.

13:50:08 [Nm]

william: presumes an in-place website. Implies need to do a before site?

13:51:27 [Nm]

JB: original purpose: a demo only, not dull and boring;repair first transformation; then to

13:51:53 [Nm]

Prior comment shawn;

13:52:39 [Nm]

shadi: learning about specific web features is objective;

13:53:07 [Nm]

shadi: look at best practice, needn't start with accessible website;

13:53:28 [Nm]

shadi: expect larger audience

13:53:59 [Zakim]

+Jack

13:54:02 [Nm]

William: this looks like a stand-alone; needn't be so.

13:54:50 [Nm]

Shadi: Questions: what first or second sample page users reach,

13:54:57 [Jack]

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13:55:09 [Nm]

need to make concise and simple; make it effectively usable.

13:55:10 [shawn]

s/JB: original purpose: a demo only, not dull and boring;repair first transformation; then to/Shawn: original purpose primarily dome for presentations, to show that accessibility dull and boring, example that can fix accessibility w/o significantly changing visual presentation

13:56:14 [Nm]

JB: Few had looked at this before the call.

13:57:38 [Nm]

JB: Before site: know visually we are in a demo; minimally awareness

13:58:34 [Justin]

zakim, please unmute me

13:58:34 [Zakim]

Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted

13:59:03 [Nm]

JB: need reminder of what viewing; what is an adequate indication of the viewing for non-visual; add an icon [visual] of what in.

13:59:29 [Nm]

SH: will have pictures on overview; pictures in navigation

14:00:50 [Nm]

Shadi: evaluation report is sample; need some consistency -- be aware of being in the demo

14:01:36 [Nm]

Shadi: Concern for logo/icon/city-lights icon/

14:02:09 [Nm]

William: not great

14:02:39 [barry]

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14:02:54 [Nm]

JB: Thumbnails on right; a recognizable visual image of page(s)

14:03:07 [Zakim]

+??P9

14:03:26 [Nm]

Jack: indication of where you are

14:03:42 [Nm]

Pasquale: position where you are.

14:03:54 [Nm]

Barry joined 09:04

14:04:02 [barry]

zakim +??P9 is Barry

14:04:55 [Nm]

William: could show image; features list; prefer naming

14:05:44 [Nm]

instead of bulleted list, pictures with minimal description.

14:06:58 [Nm]

JB: in Demonstration Contents? pictures

14:07:11 [barry]

zakim, +??P9 is Barry

14:07:11 [Zakim]

sorry, barry, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9'

14:07:53 [Nm]

JB: Before and After, should be added

14:07:57 [barry]

zakim, who's here

14:07:58 [Zakim]

barry, you need to end that query with '?'

14:08:37 [Helle]

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14:08:42 [Justin]

Before Redesign Web Site (Inaccessible)

14:10:09 [Nm]

Shadi: before and after -- verb rather than name; clearer name\

14:10:36 [Justin]

Inaccessible Web Site (Before)

14:11:00 [Nm]

Shadi: name should reflect change; certainly in contents

14:11:36 [Zakim]

+Helle_Bjarno

14:11:37 [Nm]

William: names before is like features list;

14:11:38 [shawn]

ACTION, shadi, changelog: add elements to tie the pages together, that is, make it look like the pages fit together. e.g., on the Overview and Evaluation pages, include a small image of the BAD Home page, and on the Features page, include an image of each page (e.g., float right after h2). [shawn adds: perhaps put the CityLights logo &/or yellow bar at the top &/or the background colour...]

14:11:56 [Nm]

JB: New Subject: Evaluation Report

14:12:07 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/report

14:13:17 [Nm]

That link isn't found

14:15:04 [Jack]

Does not work for Jack.

14:16:13 [Nm]

Shadi Structure -- valid markup, CSS, deprecated elements;

14:17:32 [Nm]

Will be link in left navigation bar

14:18:26 [Nm]

Minutes are done without access to page

14:19:07 [Nm]

HBj: links to where? to checkpoints?

14:19:19 [Nm]

Shadi: just to checkpoints;

14:19:48 [Nm]

SH: all but first one; awkward to go to many links

14:20:13 [Nm]

HBj: If had heading structure; links to findings; links; descriptions.

14:20:48 [Nm]

SH: Structures, add sub-grouping.

14:21:24 [Nm]

Justin: Still seeking feedback on organization.

14:21:54 [Nm]

Shadi: first page grouping; add sub-groups as appropriate.

14:22:33 [Nm]

Original title "images" actually much more.

14:22:50 [Nm]

WM agrees; though this is hube.

14:23:18 [Nm]

WM: Huge

14:23:29 [Nm]

JB: Evaluation report, then details

14:24:00 [Nm]

Shadi: may need expansion with examples

14:24:20 [judy]

reminder of our evaluation template: http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/template.html

14:25:55 [Nm]

HBj: clarify use of template; a model filled-in one

14:26:26 [Nm]

JB: Before and After site as mediator; recommendations on how to fix; with deliberate analysis of page

14:26:47 [Nm]

JB: Could link to template; example of its use.

14:27:37 [Nm]

JB: example of use of demo suite.

14:28:12 [Nm]

WM: example use of template for before/after; using evaluation template structure

14:28:21 [shawn]

JB: Eval report for BAD *and* example of Eval Report Template

14:28:39 [Nm]

JB: take what we learn; tweak evaluation template.

14:29:02 [Nm]

WM: shadi's outline would use this template.

14:29:45 [Nm]

JB: Expect view of initial draft today.

14:30:11 [Nm]

SH: Looking at URL of the report

14:31:55 [Nm]

WM: Doesn't see yellow part

14:32:09 [Nm]

Shadi: is categorization OK?

14:32:39 [Nm]

HBj: sees yellow part

14:32:45 [Nm]

Harvey doesn't

14:33:31 [Nm]

HBj: Yellow part is just notes

14:34:15 [Nm]

Pasquale: question repetition of structure

14:34:38 [Nm]

Shadi: checkpoints listed; in-page navigation; groupings

14:35:11 [Nm]

Shadi: scripting for navigation; should help user read report and get overview

14:35:14 [shawn]

barry: navigation often site-wide, rather than pre-page

14:36:00 [shawn]

s/pre-page/per individual page

14:36:27 [Nm]

JB: Template doesn't take into account its use; some reflect back on the template

14:37:12 [Nm]

Shadi: Comment on-line about the structure

14:37:46 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/features

14:38:56 [Nm]

Home page Draft Before and After Demonstration: Features

14:39:30 [Nm]

On right menu: links to inaccessible/accessible versions

14:39:58 [Nm]

That menu might have small images

14:40:21 [Nm]

Bullet points editorial cleanup

14:41:06 [Nm]

Read: using; then comment on organizational structure

14:41:30 [Nm]

Justin, shawn will read.

14:42:42 [Nm]

JB: Need comment on Demo/features link above.

14:43:34 [Nm]

Topic: Retrofitting doc link above

14:43:51 [shawn]

requirements: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/retrofitting-changelog.html#about

14:44:12 [shawn]

ROUGH early concept draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/Overview.html

14:45:02 [Nm]

Topic: About Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility

14:46:56 [Nm]

WM: overwhelmed BY issue of accessibility

14:47:22 [Nm]

Henk: how to read accessibility report

14:48:24 [Nm]

Suite: recipients want to understand report better.

14:48:43 [Nm]

SH: Doc: repair/retrofit site; what to do next

14:49:10 [Nm]

Henk: need clear starting point.

14:50:45 [Nm]

SH: Topic: Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility rough concept draft

14:51:50 [Nm]

Henk: Audience is those who have done the first step.

14:52:19 [Nm]

SH: Some may get here without background. Need clarification.

14:56:24 [Nm]

SH: are main points covered?

14:58:40 [Nm]

SH: Liam comment on needed skills and expertise? would fit somewhere; email two weeks ago; need outside help vs doing it yourself

15:00:06 [Nm]

Jack: after retrofit; fixed easy ones; go back and improve; how prioritize problems once picked "easy fruit".

15:01:33 [Nm]

SH: some document on to-do list: seeking outside expertise.

15:02:58 [Nm]

Barry: encourage people to be public on accessibility work in progress; keep users in the loop; part of managing expectations

15:03:31 [Zakim]

-Pasquale_Popolizio

15:03:32 [Nm]

Liam: to draft paragraph on issue

15:04:14 [Zakim]

+Pasquale_Popolizio

15:05:01 [Nm]

Good to do as soon as aware of problem.

15:05:44 [Nm]

Help is available; tools for evaluation

15:08:30 [Nm]

Training avoids future problems/bringing in outside expertise can help

15:09:34 [Nm]

Topic: Terminology

15:10:40 [shawn]

slh: fixing? retrofitting? repairing?

15:10:46 [shawn]

henk: retrofitting a little harder to translate

15:10:53 [Nm]

Retrofitting? Fixing? Repairing?

15:11:01 [shawn]

henk: repairing not so good 'cause not broken

15:11:06 [judy]

q+ to comment on issues w/ "retrofitting"

15:11:29 [shawn]

henk: replacing for newer things

15:11:31 [shawn]

ack judy

15:11:31 [Zakim]

judy, you wanted to comment on issues w/ "retrofitting"

15:11:34 [Nm]

Retrofitting is getting a newer version; there may not be one?

15:12:15 [shawn]

shawn & judy: "retrofitting" jargony, not familiar even in own language English

15:13:33 [shawn]

sailesh & helle: improving

15:13:47 [Nm]

HBj: agree with Shadi: "improving"

15:14:04 [Nm]

WM: improving the accessibility of your website is congratulatory.

15:14:08 [shawn]

s/agree with Shadi/agree with Sailesh

15:16:07 [Nm]

WM: Define retrofit at top.

15:16:32 [Nm]

SH: make title welcoming: Improving the accessibility of your website?

15:16:51 [shadi]

how about "incorporating accessibility on your Web site"?

15:17:35 [shawn]

liam: improving accessibility on exsiting web sites

15:18:18 [shawn]

shadi: incorporate or implement

15:19:11 [Nm]

Implementing Web Site Accessibility

15:19:44 [Nm]

JB: Too general? We focus on existing websites.

15:20:27 [Nm]

HBj: purpose -- add to existing website; explain in the beginning.

15:20:41 [Liam]

Making existing website accessible?

15:21:06 [Nm]

SH: Title should be welcoming and easy to understand.

15:21:30 [shawn]

henk & helle: improving accessiility by retrofitting your web site

15:21:54 [shawn]

justing: making web site more accessible?

15:22:10 [Nm]

Liam: Making existing websites accessible

15:22:25 [shawn]

s/justing:/justins:

15:24:57 [shadi]

including accessibility on your Web site

15:25:11 [Nm]

accessibility problems, barriers, errors, how to fix,

15:25:27 [shawn]

accessibility problems? accessibility issues?

15:25:55 [Nm]

JB: Many documents use barriers; chose a loaded word.

15:26:42 [shawn]

accessibility errors. lack of accessibility, inaccessibility

15:27:01 [Liam]

q+

15:27:01 [Nm]

JB: Barriers is loaded word -- suggest need repair

15:27:23 [Nm]

Shadi: barriers translates well "barrier-free".

15:27:44 [shawn]

liam: remove barriers, rather than overxome them

15:28:01 [shawn]

s/overxome/overcome

15:28:03 [Nm]

Lots of people like "barriers"

15:28:58 [Nm]

JB: Website problem -- server outage recently; some uploads were lost.

15:29:59 [Nm]

JB: Next Friday finish comment on documents.

15:30:37 [Nm]

JB: Sunday's EO comments on WCAG. have some feedback.

15:31:27 [Nm]

JB: Have taken many of our comments informally; may wish to revisit next Friday

15:32:07 [Nm]

JB: Look at SH: agenda page for Tech Plenary end Feb/Mar; one agenda page.

15:32:21 [Nm]

JB: Got 2-week discounted rate extention.

15:32:41 [Nm]

SH: comment on retrofitting document

15:33:02 [Zakim]

-Doyle_Saylor

15:33:03 [Zakim]

-Barry

15:33:03 [Zakim]

-Helle_Bjarno

15:33:04 [Zakim]

-Jack

15:33:05 [Zakim]

-Bingham

15:33:05 [Zakim]

-Loughborough

15:33:07 [Zakim]

-Justin_Thorp

15:33:09 [Zakim]

-Henk

15:33:36 [Zakim]

-Judy

15:34:01 [Zakim]

-Pasquale_Popolizio

15:34:33 [Zakim]

-Shawn

15:35:12 [shawn]

zakim, attendees?

15:35:13 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, shawn.

15:35:19 [shawn]

zakim, present?

15:35:19 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, shawn.

15:36:02 [shawn]

present: Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Pasquale_Popolizio, Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee, Jack, Barry

15:36:26 [shawn]

rrsagent, make logs world

15:36:51 [shawn]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:36:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/27-eo-minutes.html shawn

15:44:00 [Zakim]

-Liam_McGee

15:44:02 [Zakim]

-Shadi

15:44:04 [Zakim]

WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended

15:44:05 [Zakim]

Attendees were Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Pasquale_Popolizio, Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee, Jack, Barry, Helle_Bjarno

15:49:13 [pasquale]

bye all, have a good weekend ;-)

15:54:34 [judy]

bye pasquale, bye all

16:43:06 [shawn]

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