13:25:08 RRSAgent has joined #eo 13:25:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/27-eo-irc 13:25:17 Zakim has joined #eo 13:25:27 zakim, this will be eowg 13:25:27 ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:25:35 Meeting: EOWG 13:26:19 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2006JanMar/0029.html 13:26:27 judy has joined #eo 13:27:21 Regrets: Wayne, Jack, Tanguy 13:29:25 WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started 13:29:32 +Bingham 13:30:55 +Shawn 13:31:18 +Loughborough 13:31:49 +Judy 13:32:43 +Henk 13:32:46 +Shadi 13:33:02 +Justin_Thorp 13:33:43 +Pasquale_Popolizio 13:35:39 scribe: harvey 13:36:36 +Doyle_Saylor 13:37:01 topic: Outreach Updates 13:37:12 scribenick: shawn 13:37:12 Nm has joined #eo 13:37:25 scribenick: Nm 13:37:37 Harvey trying to scribe 13:38:45 Deadline 6 Feb for tech plenary; link on wai page 13:41:53 Boston IA 13:41:58 harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. demo by [PJ Gardner] of Krug's redesigned site that looks the same & is more accessible 13:42:11 Topic: BAD demo 13:42:26 zakim, please mute me 13:42:26 Justin_Thorp should now be muted 13:43:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2006JanMar/0030.html 13:43:50 s/harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. demo by [PJ Gardner] of Krug's redesigned site that looks the same & is more accessible/harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. however, Krug's site has accessibility problems - [PJ Gardner] demo-ed redesign of Krug's site that looks the same & is more accessible. Krug open to implementing. 13:44:38 Judy wish 45 minutes on before/after 13:45:28 Liam has joined #eo 13:45:42 +Liam_McGee 13:45:48 shadi: more to go; today focus on overall navigation and structure of demo site 13:46:30 http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/ 13:47:16 Added briefer description; and a site map of pages in suite 13:47:29 zakim, who's here? 13:47:29 On the phone I see Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp (muted), Pasquale_Popolizio (muted), Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee (muted) 13:47:31 On IRC I see Liam, Nm, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shawn, pasquale, shadi 13:47:45 Coming links on left nav bar. 13:50:08 william: presumes an in-place website. Implies need to do a before site? 13:51:27 JB: original purpose: a demo only, not dull and boring;repair first transformation; then to 13:51:53 Prior comment shawn; 13:52:39 shadi: learning about specific web features is objective; 13:53:07 shadi: look at best practice, needn't start with accessible website; 13:53:28 shadi: expect larger audience 13:53:59 +Jack 13:54:02 William: this looks like a stand-alone; needn't be so. 13:54:50 Shadi: Questions: what first or second sample page users reach, 13:54:57 Jack has joined #eo 13:55:09 need to make concise and simple; make it effectively usable. 13:55:10 s/JB: original purpose: a demo only, not dull and boring;repair first transformation; then to/Shawn: original purpose primarily dome for presentations, to show that accessibility dull and boring, example that can fix accessibility w/o significantly changing visual presentation 13:56:14 JB: Few had looked at this before the call. 13:57:38 JB: Before site: know visually we are in a demo; minimally awareness 13:58:34 zakim, please unmute me 13:58:34 Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted 13:59:03 JB: need reminder of what viewing; what is an adequate indication of the viewing for non-visual; add an icon [visual] of what in. 13:59:29 SH: will have pictures on overview; pictures in navigation 14:00:50 Shadi: evaluation report is sample; need some consistency -- be aware of being in the demo 14:01:36 Shadi: Concern for logo/icon/city-lights icon/ 14:02:09 William: not great 14:02:39 barry has joined #eo 14:02:54 JB: Thumbnails on right; a recognizable visual image of page(s) 14:03:07 +??P9 14:03:26 Jack: indication of where you are 14:03:42 Pasquale: position where you are. 14:03:54 Barry joined 09:04 14:04:02 zakim +??P9 is Barry 14:04:55 William: could show image; features list; prefer naming 14:05:44 instead of bulleted list, pictures with minimal description. 14:06:58 JB: in Demonstration Contents? pictures 14:07:11 zakim, +??P9 is Barry 14:07:11 sorry, barry, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9' 14:07:53 JB: Before and After, should be added 14:07:57 zakim, who's here 14:07:58 barry, you need to end that query with '?' 14:08:37 Helle has joined #eo 14:08:42 Before Redesign Web Site (Inaccessible) 14:10:09 Shadi: before and after -- verb rather than name; clearer name\ 14:10:36 Inaccessible Web Site (Before) 14:11:00 Shadi: name should reflect change; certainly in contents 14:11:36 +Helle_Bjarno 14:11:37 William: names before is like features list; 14:11:38 ACTION, shadi, changelog: add elements to tie the pages together, that is, make it look like the pages fit together. e.g., on the Overview and Evaluation pages, include a small image of the BAD Home page, and on the Features page, include an image of each page (e.g., float right after h2). [shawn adds: perhaps put the CityLights logo &/or yellow bar at the top &/or the background colour...] 14:11:56 JB: New Subject: Evaluation Report 14:12:07 http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/report 14:13:17 That link isn't found 14:15:04 Does not work for Jack. 14:16:13 Shadi Structure -- valid markup, CSS, deprecated elements; 14:17:32 Will be link in left navigation bar 14:18:26 Minutes are done without access to page 14:19:07 HBj: links to where? to checkpoints? 14:19:19 Shadi: just to checkpoints; 14:19:48 SH: all but first one; awkward to go to many links 14:20:13 HBj: If had heading structure; links to findings; links; descriptions. 14:20:48 SH: Structures, add sub-grouping. 14:21:24 Justin: Still seeking feedback on organization. 14:21:54 Shadi: first page grouping; add sub-groups as appropriate. 14:22:33 Original title "images" actually much more. 14:22:50 WM agrees; though this is hube. 14:23:18 WM: Huge 14:23:29 JB: Evaluation report, then details 14:24:00 Shadi: may need expansion with examples 14:24:20 reminder of our evaluation template: http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/template.html 14:25:55 HBj: clarify use of template; a model filled-in one 14:26:26 JB: Before and After site as mediator; recommendations on how to fix; with deliberate analysis of page 14:26:47 JB: Could link to template; example of its use. 14:27:37 JB: example of use of demo suite. 14:28:12 WM: example use of template for before/after; using evaluation template structure 14:28:21 JB: Eval report for BAD *and* example of Eval Report Template 14:28:39 JB: take what we learn; tweak evaluation template. 14:29:02 WM: shadi's outline would use this template. 14:29:45 JB: Expect view of initial draft today. 14:30:11 SH: Looking at URL of the report 14:31:55 WM: Doesn't see yellow part 14:32:09 Shadi: is categorization OK? 14:32:39 HBj: sees yellow part 14:32:45 Harvey doesn't 14:33:31 HBj: Yellow part is just notes 14:34:15 Pasquale: question repetition of structure 14:34:38 Shadi: checkpoints listed; in-page navigation; groupings 14:35:11 Shadi: scripting for navigation; should help user read report and get overview 14:35:14 barry: navigation often site-wide, rather than pre-page 14:36:00 s/pre-page/per individual page 14:36:27 JB: Template doesn't take into account its use; some reflect back on the template 14:37:12 Shadi: Comment on-line about the structure 14:37:46 http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/features 14:38:56 Home page Draft Before and After Demonstration: Features 14:39:30 On right menu: links to inaccessible/accessible versions 14:39:58 That menu might have small images 14:40:21 Bullet points editorial cleanup 14:41:06 Read: using; then comment on organizational structure 14:41:30 Justin, shawn will read. 14:42:42 JB: Need comment on Demo/features link above. 14:43:34 Topic: Retrofitting doc link above 14:43:51 requirements: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/retrofitting-changelog.html#about 14:44:12 ROUGH early concept draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/Overview.html 14:45:02 Topic: About Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility 14:46:56 WM: overwhelmed BY issue of accessibility 14:47:22 Henk: how to read accessibility report 14:48:24 Suite: recipients want to understand report better. 14:48:43 SH: Doc: repair/retrofit site; what to do next 14:49:10 Henk: need clear starting point. 14:50:45 SH: Topic: Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility rough concept draft 14:51:50 Henk: Audience is those who have done the first step. 14:52:19 SH: Some may get here without background. Need clarification. 14:56:24 SH: are main points covered? 14:58:40 SH: Liam comment on needed skills and expertise? would fit somewhere; email two weeks ago; need outside help vs doing it yourself 15:00:06 Jack: after retrofit; fixed easy ones; go back and improve; how prioritize problems once picked "easy fruit". 15:01:33 SH: some document on to-do list: seeking outside expertise. 15:02:58 Barry: encourage people to be public on accessibility work in progress; keep users in the loop; part of managing expectations 15:03:31 -Pasquale_Popolizio 15:03:32 Liam: to draft paragraph on issue 15:04:14 +Pasquale_Popolizio 15:05:01 Good to do as soon as aware of problem. 15:05:44 Help is available; tools for evaluation 15:08:30 Training avoids future problems/bringing in outside expertise can help 15:09:34 Topic: Terminology 15:10:40 slh: fixing? retrofitting? repairing? 15:10:53 Retrofitting? Fixing? Repairing? 15:11:01 henk: repairing not so good 'cause not broken 15:11:06 q+ to comment on issues w/ "retrofitting" 15:11:29 henk: replacing for newer things 15:11:31 ack judy 15:11:31 judy, you wanted to comment on issues w/ "retrofitting" 15:11:34 Retrofitting is getting a newer version; there may not be one? 15:12:15 shawn & judy: "retrofitting" jargony, not familiar even in own language English 15:13:33 sailesh & helle: improving 15:13:47 HBj: agree with Shadi: "improving" 15:14:04 WM: improving the accessibility of your website is congratulatory. 15:14:08 s/agree with Shadi/agree with Sailesh 15:16:07 WM: Define retrofit at top. 15:16:32 SH: make title welcoming: Improving the accessibility of your website? 15:16:51 how about "incorporating accessibility on your Web site"? 15:17:35 liam: improving accessibility on exsiting web sites 15:18:18 shadi: incorporate or implement 15:19:11 Implementing Web Site Accessibility 15:19:44 JB: Too general? We focus on existing websites. 15:20:27 HBj: purpose -- add to existing website; explain in the beginning. 15:20:41 Making existing website accessible? 15:21:06 SH: Title should be welcoming and easy to understand. 15:21:30 henk & helle: improving accessiility by retrofitting your web site 15:21:54 justing: making web site more accessible? 15:22:10 Liam: Making existing websites accessible 15:22:25 s/justing:/justins: 15:24:57 including accessibility on your Web site 15:25:11 accessibility problems, barriers, errors, how to fix, 15:25:27 accessibility problems? accessibility issues? 15:25:55 JB: Many documents use barriers; chose a loaded word. 15:26:42 accessibility errors. lack of accessibility, inaccessibility 15:27:01 q+ 15:27:01 JB: Barriers is loaded word -- suggest need repair 15:27:23 Shadi: barriers translates well "barrier-free". 15:27:44 liam: remove barriers, rather than overxome them 15:28:01 s/overxome/overcome 15:28:03 Lots of people like "barriers" 15:28:58 JB: Website problem -- server outage recently; some uploads were lost. 15:29:59 JB: Next Friday finish comment on documents. 15:30:37 JB: Sunday's EO comments on WCAG. have some feedback. 15:31:27 JB: Have taken many of our comments informally; may wish to revisit next Friday 15:32:07 JB: Look at SH: agenda page for Tech Plenary end Feb/Mar; one agenda page. 15:32:21 JB: Got 2-week discounted rate extention. 15:32:41 SH: comment on retrofitting document 15:33:02 -Doyle_Saylor 15:33:03 -Barry 15:33:03 -Helle_Bjarno 15:33:04 -Jack 15:33:05 -Bingham 15:33:05 -Loughborough 15:33:07 -Justin_Thorp 15:33:09 -Henk 15:33:36 -Judy 15:34:01 -Pasquale_Popolizio 15:34:33 -Shawn 15:35:12 zakim, attendees? 15:35:13 I don't understand your question, shawn. 15:35:19 zakim, present? 15:35:19 I don't understand your question, shawn. 15:36:02 present: Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Pasquale_Popolizio, Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee, Jack, Barry 15:36:26 rrsagent, make logs world 15:36:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:36:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/27-eo-minutes.html shawn 15:44:00 -Liam_McGee 15:44:02 -Shadi 15:44:04 WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended 15:44:05 Attendees were Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Pasquale_Popolizio, Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee, Jack, Barry, Helle_Bjarno 15:49:13 bye all, have a good weekend ;-) 15:54:34 bye pasquale, bye all 16:43:06 shawn has left #eo 17:58:58 Zakim has left #eo