IRC log of eo on 2006-01-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:25:08 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:25:17 [Zakim]
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13:25:27 [Justin]
zakim, this will be eowg
13:25:27 [Zakim]
ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:25:35 [Justin]
Meeting: EOWG
13:26:19 [Justin]
13:26:27 [judy]
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13:27:21 [Justin]
Regrets: Wayne, Jack, Tanguy
13:29:25 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
13:29:32 [Zakim]
13:30:55 [Zakim]
13:31:18 [Zakim]
13:31:49 [Zakim]
13:32:43 [Zakim]
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13:35:39 [shawn]
scribe: harvey
13:36:36 [Zakim]
13:37:01 [judy]
topic: Outreach Updates
13:37:12 [shawn]
scribenick: shawn
13:37:12 [Nm]
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scribenick: Nm
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Harvey trying to scribe
13:38:45 [Nm]
Deadline 6 Feb for tech plenary; link on wai page
13:41:53 [Nm]
Boston IA
13:41:58 [shawn]
harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. demo by [PJ Gardner] of Krug's redesigned site that looks the same & is more accessible
13:42:11 [Nm]
Topic: BAD demo
13:42:26 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
13:42:26 [Zakim]
Justin_Thorp should now be muted
13:43:49 [shadi]
13:43:50 [shawn]
s/harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. demo by [PJ Gardner] of Krug's redesigned site that looks the same & is more accessible/harvey: Boston IA meeting with Steve Krug. however, Krug's site has accessibility problems - [PJ Gardner] demo-ed redesign of Krug's site that looks the same & is more accessible. Krug open to implementing.
13:44:38 [Nm]
Judy wish 45 minutes on before/after
13:45:28 [Liam]
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13:45:42 [Zakim]
13:45:48 [Nm]
shadi: more to go; today focus on overall navigation and structure of demo site
13:46:30 [shadi]
13:47:16 [Nm]
Added briefer description; and a site map of pages in suite
13:47:29 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
13:47:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp (muted), Pasquale_Popolizio (muted), Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee (muted)
13:47:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Liam, Nm, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shawn, pasquale, shadi
13:47:45 [Nm]
Coming links on left nav bar.
13:50:08 [Nm]
william: presumes an in-place website. Implies need to do a before site?
13:51:27 [Nm]
JB: original purpose: a demo only, not dull and boring;repair first transformation; then to
13:51:53 [Nm]
Prior comment shawn;
13:52:39 [Nm]
shadi: learning about specific web features is objective;
13:53:07 [Nm]
shadi: look at best practice, needn't start with accessible website;
13:53:28 [Nm]
shadi: expect larger audience
13:53:59 [Zakim]
13:54:02 [Nm]
William: this looks like a stand-alone; needn't be so.
13:54:50 [Nm]
Shadi: Questions: what first or second sample page users reach,
13:54:57 [Jack]
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13:55:09 [Nm]
need to make concise and simple; make it effectively usable.
13:55:10 [shawn]
s/JB: original purpose: a demo only, not dull and boring;repair first transformation; then to/Shawn: original purpose primarily dome for presentations, to show that accessibility dull and boring, example that can fix accessibility w/o significantly changing visual presentation
13:56:14 [Nm]
JB: Few had looked at this before the call.
13:57:38 [Nm]
JB: Before site: know visually we are in a demo; minimally awareness
13:58:34 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
13:58:34 [Zakim]
Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted
13:59:03 [Nm]
JB: need reminder of what viewing; what is an adequate indication of the viewing for non-visual; add an icon [visual] of what in.
13:59:29 [Nm]
SH: will have pictures on overview; pictures in navigation
14:00:50 [Nm]
Shadi: evaluation report is sample; need some consistency -- be aware of being in the demo
14:01:36 [Nm]
Shadi: Concern for logo/icon/city-lights icon/
14:02:09 [Nm]
William: not great
14:02:39 [barry]
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14:02:54 [Nm]
JB: Thumbnails on right; a recognizable visual image of page(s)
14:03:07 [Zakim]
14:03:26 [Nm]
Jack: indication of where you are
14:03:42 [Nm]
Pasquale: position where you are.
14:03:54 [Nm]
Barry joined 09:04
14:04:02 [barry]
zakim +??P9 is Barry
14:04:55 [Nm]
William: could show image; features list; prefer naming
14:05:44 [Nm]
instead of bulleted list, pictures with minimal description.
14:06:58 [Nm]
JB: in Demonstration Contents? pictures
14:07:11 [barry]
zakim, +??P9 is Barry
14:07:11 [Zakim]
sorry, barry, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9'
14:07:53 [Nm]
JB: Before and After, should be added
14:07:57 [barry]
zakim, who's here
14:07:58 [Zakim]
barry, you need to end that query with '?'
14:08:37 [Helle]
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14:08:42 [Justin]
Before Redesign Web Site (Inaccessible)
14:10:09 [Nm]
Shadi: before and after -- verb rather than name; clearer name\
14:10:36 [Justin]
Inaccessible Web Site (Before)
14:11:00 [Nm]
Shadi: name should reflect change; certainly in contents
14:11:36 [Zakim]
14:11:37 [Nm]
William: names before is like features list;
14:11:38 [shawn]
ACTION, shadi, changelog: add elements to tie the pages together, that is, make it look like the pages fit together. e.g., on the Overview and Evaluation pages, include a small image of the BAD Home page, and on the Features page, include an image of each page (e.g., float right after h2). [shawn adds: perhaps put the CityLights logo &/or yellow bar at the top &/or the background colour...]
14:11:56 [Nm]
JB: New Subject: Evaluation Report
14:12:07 [shadi]
14:13:17 [Nm]
That link isn't found
14:15:04 [Jack]
Does not work for Jack.
14:16:13 [Nm]
Shadi Structure -- valid markup, CSS, deprecated elements;
14:17:32 [Nm]
Will be link in left navigation bar
14:18:26 [Nm]
Minutes are done without access to page
14:19:07 [Nm]
HBj: links to where? to checkpoints?
14:19:19 [Nm]
Shadi: just to checkpoints;
14:19:48 [Nm]
SH: all but first one; awkward to go to many links
14:20:13 [Nm]
HBj: If had heading structure; links to findings; links; descriptions.
14:20:48 [Nm]
SH: Structures, add sub-grouping.
14:21:24 [Nm]
Justin: Still seeking feedback on organization.
14:21:54 [Nm]
Shadi: first page grouping; add sub-groups as appropriate.
14:22:33 [Nm]
Original title "images" actually much more.
14:22:50 [Nm]
WM agrees; though this is hube.
14:23:18 [Nm]
WM: Huge
14:23:29 [Nm]
JB: Evaluation report, then details
14:24:00 [Nm]
Shadi: may need expansion with examples
14:24:20 [judy]
reminder of our evaluation template:
14:25:55 [Nm]
HBj: clarify use of template; a model filled-in one
14:26:26 [Nm]
JB: Before and After site as mediator; recommendations on how to fix; with deliberate analysis of page
14:26:47 [Nm]
JB: Could link to template; example of its use.
14:27:37 [Nm]
JB: example of use of demo suite.
14:28:12 [Nm]
WM: example use of template for before/after; using evaluation template structure
14:28:21 [shawn]
JB: Eval report for BAD *and* example of Eval Report Template
14:28:39 [Nm]
JB: take what we learn; tweak evaluation template.
14:29:02 [Nm]
WM: shadi's outline would use this template.
14:29:45 [Nm]
JB: Expect view of initial draft today.
14:30:11 [Nm]
SH: Looking at URL of the report
14:31:55 [Nm]
WM: Doesn't see yellow part
14:32:09 [Nm]
Shadi: is categorization OK?
14:32:39 [Nm]
HBj: sees yellow part
14:32:45 [Nm]
Harvey doesn't
14:33:31 [Nm]
HBj: Yellow part is just notes
14:34:15 [Nm]
Pasquale: question repetition of structure
14:34:38 [Nm]
Shadi: checkpoints listed; in-page navigation; groupings
14:35:11 [Nm]
Shadi: scripting for navigation; should help user read report and get overview
14:35:14 [shawn]
barry: navigation often site-wide, rather than pre-page
14:36:00 [shawn]
s/pre-page/per individual page
14:36:27 [Nm]
JB: Template doesn't take into account its use; some reflect back on the template
14:37:12 [Nm]
Shadi: Comment on-line about the structure
14:37:46 [shadi]
14:38:56 [Nm]
Home page Draft Before and After Demonstration: Features
14:39:30 [Nm]
On right menu: links to inaccessible/accessible versions
14:39:58 [Nm]
That menu might have small images
14:40:21 [Nm]
Bullet points editorial cleanup
14:41:06 [Nm]
Read: using; then comment on organizational structure
14:41:30 [Nm]
Justin, shawn will read.
14:42:42 [Nm]
JB: Need comment on Demo/features link above.
14:43:34 [Nm]
Topic: Retrofitting doc link above
14:43:51 [shawn]
14:44:12 [shawn]
ROUGH early concept draft:
14:45:02 [Nm]
Topic: About Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility
14:46:56 [Nm]
WM: overwhelmed BY issue of accessibility
14:47:22 [Nm]
Henk: how to read accessibility report
14:48:24 [Nm]
Suite: recipients want to understand report better.
14:48:43 [Nm]
SH: Doc: repair/retrofit site; what to do next
14:49:10 [Nm]
Henk: need clear starting point.
14:50:45 [Nm]
SH: Topic: Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility rough concept draft
14:51:50 [Nm]
Henk: Audience is those who have done the first step.
14:52:19 [Nm]
SH: Some may get here without background. Need clarification.
14:56:24 [Nm]
SH: are main points covered?
14:58:40 [Nm]
SH: Liam comment on needed skills and expertise? would fit somewhere; email two weeks ago; need outside help vs doing it yourself
15:00:06 [Nm]
Jack: after retrofit; fixed easy ones; go back and improve; how prioritize problems once picked "easy fruit".
15:01:33 [Nm]
SH: some document on to-do list: seeking outside expertise.
15:02:58 [Nm]
Barry: encourage people to be public on accessibility work in progress; keep users in the loop; part of managing expectations
15:03:31 [Zakim]
15:03:32 [Nm]
Liam: to draft paragraph on issue
15:04:14 [Zakim]
15:05:01 [Nm]
Good to do as soon as aware of problem.
15:05:44 [Nm]
Help is available; tools for evaluation
15:08:30 [Nm]
Training avoids future problems/bringing in outside expertise can help
15:09:34 [Nm]
Topic: Terminology
15:10:40 [shawn]
slh: fixing? retrofitting? repairing?
15:10:46 [shawn]
henk: retrofitting a little harder to translate
15:10:53 [Nm]
Retrofitting? Fixing? Repairing?
15:11:01 [shawn]
henk: repairing not so good 'cause not broken
15:11:06 [judy]
q+ to comment on issues w/ "retrofitting"
15:11:29 [shawn]
henk: replacing for newer things
15:11:31 [shawn]
ack judy
15:11:31 [Zakim]
judy, you wanted to comment on issues w/ "retrofitting"
15:11:34 [Nm]
Retrofitting is getting a newer version; there may not be one?
15:12:15 [shawn]
shawn & judy: "retrofitting" jargony, not familiar even in own language English
15:13:33 [shawn]
sailesh & helle: improving
15:13:47 [Nm]
HBj: agree with Shadi: "improving"
15:14:04 [Nm]
WM: improving the accessibility of your website is congratulatory.
15:14:08 [shawn]
s/agree with Shadi/agree with Sailesh
15:16:07 [Nm]
WM: Define retrofit at top.
15:16:32 [Nm]
SH: make title welcoming: Improving the accessibility of your website?
15:16:51 [shadi]
how about "incorporating accessibility on your Web site"?
15:17:35 [shawn]
liam: improving accessibility on exsiting web sites
15:18:18 [shawn]
shadi: incorporate or implement
15:19:11 [Nm]
Implementing Web Site Accessibility
15:19:44 [Nm]
JB: Too general? We focus on existing websites.
15:20:27 [Nm]
HBj: purpose -- add to existing website; explain in the beginning.
15:20:41 [Liam]
Making existing website accessible?
15:21:06 [Nm]
SH: Title should be welcoming and easy to understand.
15:21:30 [shawn]
henk & helle: improving accessiility by retrofitting your web site
15:21:54 [shawn]
justing: making web site more accessible?
15:22:10 [Nm]
Liam: Making existing websites accessible
15:22:25 [shawn]
15:24:57 [shadi]
including accessibility on your Web site
15:25:11 [Nm]
accessibility problems, barriers, errors, how to fix,
15:25:27 [shawn]
accessibility problems? accessibility issues?
15:25:55 [Nm]
JB: Many documents use barriers; chose a loaded word.
15:26:42 [shawn]
accessibility errors. lack of accessibility, inaccessibility
15:27:01 [Liam]
15:27:01 [Nm]
JB: Barriers is loaded word -- suggest need repair
15:27:23 [Nm]
Shadi: barriers translates well "barrier-free".
15:27:44 [shawn]
liam: remove barriers, rather than overxome them
15:28:01 [shawn]
15:28:03 [Nm]
Lots of people like "barriers"
15:28:58 [Nm]
JB: Website problem -- server outage recently; some uploads were lost.
15:29:59 [Nm]
JB: Next Friday finish comment on documents.
15:30:37 [Nm]
JB: Sunday's EO comments on WCAG. have some feedback.
15:31:27 [Nm]
JB: Have taken many of our comments informally; may wish to revisit next Friday
15:32:07 [Nm]
JB: Look at SH: agenda page for Tech Plenary end Feb/Mar; one agenda page.
15:32:21 [Nm]
JB: Got 2-week discounted rate extention.
15:32:41 [Nm]
SH: comment on retrofitting document
15:33:02 [Zakim]
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15:35:12 [shawn]
zakim, attendees?
15:35:13 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, shawn.
15:35:19 [shawn]
zakim, present?
15:35:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, shawn.
15:36:02 [shawn]
present: Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Pasquale_Popolizio, Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee, Jack, Barry
15:36:26 [shawn]
rrsagent, make logs world
15:36:51 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:36:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shawn
15:44:00 [Zakim]
15:44:02 [Zakim]
15:44:04 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:44:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were Bingham, Shawn, Loughborough, Judy, Henk, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Pasquale_Popolizio, Doyle_Saylor, Liam_McGee, Jack, Barry, Helle_Bjarno
15:49:13 [pasquale]
bye all, have a good weekend ;-)
15:54:34 [judy]
bye pasquale, bye all
16:43:06 [shawn]
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