IRC log of tagmem on 2006-01-24
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:17:27 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-tagmem-irc
- 17:20:37 [ht]
- Scribe: Henry S. Thompson
- 17:20:40 [ht]
- ScribeNick: ht
- 17:20:56 [ht]
- Meeting: TAG teleconference
- 17:21:10 [ht]
- Chair: Vincent Quint
- 17:44:51 [DanC]
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- DanC has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/01/24-agenda.html Scribe: Noah?
- 17:48:25 [DanC]
- hmm... no actions in the agenda.
- 17:49:28 [DanC]
- ah... now i see an action
- 17:55:45 [noah]
- noah has joined #tagmem
- 17:56:19 [noah]
- We've switched scribes: Henry will be scribing today.
- 17:56:43 [Zakim]
- TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
- 17:56:49 [DanC]
- DanC has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/01/24-agenda.html Scribe: ht
- 17:56:50 [Zakim]
- +Noah_Mendelsohn
- 17:57:40 [DanC]
- note to self: 2 agenda requests: (1) security workshop deadline 25 Jan (2) WSDL/RDF mapping and semantic annotations
- 17:59:53 [Vincent]
- Vincent has joined #tagmem
- 17:59:55 [ht]
- Topic: Administrative
- 18:00:47 [ht]
- Regrets from Ed Rice, Norm Walsh
- 18:01:04 [ht]
- zakim, please call ht-781
- 18:01:04 [Zakim]
- ok, ht; the call is being made
- 18:01:05 [Zakim]
- +Ht
- 18:01:47 [Zakim]
- +[INRIA]
- 18:02:01 [Vincent]
- Zakim, INRIA is Vincent
- 18:02:01 [Zakim]
- +Vincent; got it
- 18:03:19 [Zakim]
- +TimBL
- 18:03:29 [noah]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 18:03:40 [Zakim]
- noah, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
- 18:03:43 [noah]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 18:03:54 [Zakim]
- noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Vincent (5%)
- 18:04:20 [Zakim]
- +DOrchard
- 18:04:20 [noah]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 18:04:21 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, Ht, Vincent, TimBL, DOrchard
- 18:04:40 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 18:06:23 [ht]
- zakim, who is on the call?
- 18:06:23 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, Ht, Vincent, TimBL, DOrchard, DanC
- 18:06:37 [dorchard]
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- 18:07:21 [ht]
- VQ: Roy is at risk, we won't wait for him
- 18:07:52 [Zakim]
- +Roy
- 18:09:19 [ht]
- NH, HT: Revised minutes will take a day or two, but will appear
- 18:09:48 [ht]
- VQ: Next telcon: HT, NM regrets for Schema f2f
- 18:10:03 [ht]
- ... TBL regrets, RF regrets
- 18:10:46 [ht]
- ... One more regret and I will cancel, but with 5 we will try to go ahead
- 18:11:04 [DanC]
- I'm available to scribe 31 Jan
- 18:11:22 [ht]
- VQ: ER to scribe, DC fallback
- 18:11:57 [DanC]
- q+ 2 agenda requests: (1) security workshop deadline 25 Jan (2) WSDL/RDF mapping and semantic annotations
- 18:11:57 [ht]
- ... Proposed agenda for today: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/01/24-agenda.html
- 18:12:05 [DanC]
- q+ to make 2 agenda requests: (1) security workshop deadline 25 Jan (2) WSDL/RDF mapping and semantic annotations
- 18:14:36 [ht]
- VQ: Agenda agreed with Security Wkshp at the front and WSDL/RDF added at the back
- 18:15:06 [ht]
- ... Propose to adopt minutes of 10 Jan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2006Jan/att-0003/Jan102005.html
- 18:15:29 [ht]
- ... Approved
- 18:15:46 [ht]
- VQ: Activity summary due
- 18:16:43 [ht]
- ACTION: VQ to prepare a summary in the next few days, circulate to tag@w3.org for review, then go public depending on feedback
- 18:17:07 [ht]
- VQ: TP starts in one month, no joint meetings yet scheduled. . .
- 18:17:25 [ht]
- ... What opportunities are we at risk of missing?
- 18:17:40 [ht]
- DC: Like to talk to Compound Document WG. . .
- 18:18:17 [ht]
- DO: Working with Hoylen Sue on XML Schema versioning stuff, hoping to work with Schema WG on that, also spooling up on our own versioning work
- 18:18:40 [ht]
- ... So want to ask Schema WG to take part to go over the use cases, maybe get an updated draft finding in time
- 18:19:04 [ht]
- NM: XML Schema WG is not meeting at the Tech Plenary, meeting in Florida next week instead
- 18:19:18 [ht]
- ... But in fact at least HST, NM, MSM will be there
- 18:19:30 [ht]
- s/there/in Mandelieu/
- 18:19:41 [ht]
- VQ: Formal meeting with CDF WG?
- 18:20:05 [noah]
- q+ to mention binary WG
- 18:20:14 [timbl]
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- 18:20:21 [ht]
- DC: I don't think a formal meeting is required, happy to just talk informally
- 18:20:42 [ht]
- VQ: I wouldn't mind chatting with them. . .
- 18:21:05 [Vincent]
- ack noah
- 18:21:05 [Zakim]
- noah, you wanted to mention binary WG
- 18:21:07 [ht]
- NM: I'd prefer to save formal meetings for times when we have formal business to do, so perhaps not this time for CDF
- 18:21:08 [DanC]
- (Noah, did you say we've met with the CDF WG before? I don't believe we have.)
- 18:21:38 [ht]
- HST believes we met CDF WG last year in Boston
- 18:22:16 [ht]
- NM: I don't have any particular item we need to talk to EXI about -- just pointing out that they're just starting up
- 18:22:48 [noah]
- EXI is meeting Thurs/Fri at the plenary, as I recall.
- 18:23:09 [ht]
- VQ: So doesn't sound like any formal meetings are required, but no reason this can't change in the intervening month. . .
- 18:23:20 [ht]
- Topic: Security Workshop
- 18:23:36 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/usability-ws/
- 18:24:23 [ht]
- DC thinking about turning his contributions to this group on security into a position paper for this workshop
- 18:24:32 [ht]
- ... Digest authentication
- 18:25:03 [ht]
- DO: In our discussion about state, this has come up, and there's some discussion about forms-based security
- 18:25:20 [ht]
- ... taking over from http-based security, in my draft finding about state
- 18:25:28 [ht]
- ... Will find URI and paste here
- 18:25:50 [ht]
- DC: Haven't come up with a thesis statement for a paper
- 18:25:57 [ht]
- q+ to suggest a thesis
- 18:26:24 [Vincent]
- ack ht
- 18:26:24 [Zakim]
- ht, you wanted to suggest a thesis
- 18:26:47 [dorchard]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Oct/0025.html
- 18:26:51 [ht]
- HST: "We already know what we need to do, why aren't we doing it?"
- 18:27:05 [ht]
- TBL: I'm interested, but I can't fit it in
- 18:27:09 [dorchard]
- The primary reasons for customized security are security concerns, that
- 18:27:09 [dorchard]
- is wanting greater control over the security timing out, and ease of use
- 18:27:09 [dorchard]
- concerns, particularly wanting direct control over the look and feel of
- 18:27:09 [dorchard]
- the screens including helpful tips and links to forgotten passwords.
- 18:27:30 [ht]
- ... I have a UK trip already scheduled for that week, which is a shame
- 18:28:14 [ht]
- DO: Not in the same direction as HST's digest authentication suggestion -- my thesis is we don't have what we need
- 18:28:30 [DanC]
- aha... found my slides http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20AM-minutes.html -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2005Sep/0017.html
- 18:28:44 [ht]
- TBL: Just display the name of the holder of the certificate in the browser, half the phishing stuff would go away
- 18:28:47 [DanC]
- oops; no, those are daveS's slides
- 18:29:02 [ht]
- DO: People want control of the look and feel, timing out, etc.
- 18:30:18 [ht]
- VQ: So, nothing for this group?
- 18:30:41 [ht]
- DC: I've got helpful input, all I was hoping for, not planning to represent the TAG if I go
- 18:30:54 [ht]
- VQ: OK, nothing more to say
- 18:31:21 [ht]
- Topic: Reply from WS Addressing WG wrt epr-27
- 18:31:38 [ht]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Jan/0074.html
- 18:31:48 [noah]
- Our original proposed text:
- 18:31:48 [noah]
- Note: Web Architecture dictates that resources should be identified with
- 18:31:48 [noah]
- URIs. Thus, use of the abstract properties of an EPR other than
- 18:31:48 [noah]
- wsa:address to identify resources is contrary to Web Architecture. In
- 18:31:48 [noah]
- certain circumstances, use of such additional properties may be convenient
- 18:31:49 [noah]
- or beneficial, perhaps due to the availability of QName-based tools. When
- 18:31:51 [noah]
- building systems that violate this principle, care must be taken to weigh
- 18:31:53 [noah]
- the tradeoffs inherent in deploying resources that are not on the Web.
- 18:31:59 [ht]
- VQ: WG has modified their document, asking for our feedback
- 18:32:04 [DanC]
- aha! finally found minutes of our security discussion. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20PM-minutes.html#item02
- 18:32:10 [noah]
- Their proposal:
- 18:32:11 [noah]
- The Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One [AoWWW]
- 18:32:11 [noah]
- recommends [Section 2 of AoWWW] the use of URIs to identify
- 18:32:11 [noah]
- resources. Using abstract properties of an EPR other than
- 18:32:11 [noah]
- [destination] to identify resources is contrary to this
- 18:32:11 [noah]
- recommendation. In certain circumstances, such a use of additional
- 18:32:13 [noah]
- properties may be convenient or beneficial; however, when building
- 18:32:15 [noah]
- systems, the benefits or convenience of identifying a resource using
- 18:32:17 [noah]
- reference parameters should be carefully weighed against the
- 18:32:19 [noah]
- benefits of identifying a resource solely by URI as explained in
- 18:32:21 [noah]
- [Section 2.
- 18:32:23 [noah]
- The Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One [AoWWW]
- 18:32:25 [noah]
- recommends [Section 2 of AoWWW] the use of URIs to identify
- 18:32:27 [noah]
- resources. Using abstract properties of an EPR other than
- 18:32:29 [noah]
- [destination] to identify resources is contrary to this
- 18:32:31 [noah]
- recommendation. In certain circumstances, such a use of additional
- 18:32:33 [noah]
- properties may be convenient or beneficial; however, when building
- 18:32:35 [noah]
- systems, the benefits or convenience of identifying a resource using
- 18:32:37 [noah]
- reference parameters should be carefully weighed against the
- 18:32:39 [noah]
- benefits of identifying a resource solely by URI as explained in
- 18:32:41 [noah]
- [Section 2.
- 18:32:43 [noah]
- [Section 2.1] of the Web Architecture.
- 18:33:51 [ht]
- NM: We could quibble -- they toned things down a bit, we could push back, but I think it's a straight yes-no call
- 18:34:01 [ht]
- DC: I can't see the difference . . .
- 18:34:21 [ht]
- ... I've seen various drafts, can't tell the difference any more
- 18:34:58 [ht]
- TBL: I don't see anything worth fighting about there
- 18:35:09 [ht]
- DC: What about the example?
- 18:35:24 [noah]
- Our note to WSA: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing-comments/2005Oct/0004
- 18:35:32 [ht]
- HST: I think that was an illustration for their benefit, not suggested for inclusion in their REC
- 18:36:07 [ht]
- ... I think their proposal represents some positive movement on their part, should accept with thanks
- 18:36:36 [ht]
- DO: +1
- 18:36:39 [ht]
- DC: I'd like to think a bit out loud about this before agreeing
- 18:36:54 [ht]
- ... Were we trying to change the world, or just get some words in the doc't
- 18:37:18 [ht]
- DO: I wanted us to change the world, in the direction of proposing encoding of EPRs in URIs, but we haven't gone there
- 18:37:31 [ht]
- NM: [scribe missed some]
- 18:38:08 [ht]
- ... DO helped us in E'burgh to see what some of the reasonable motivations were for using EPR parameters for despatching
- 18:39:05 [ht]
- ... So rather than just saying to WSAWG "don't go there", we decided to try to get acknowledgement of the costs as well as the benefits
- 18:39:15 [DanC]
- q+ to ask if anybody is motivated to take this note from WSA and discuss it with the WS-RF folks
- 18:39:26 [ht]
- DC: Was there a GRID spec that uses EPRs?
- 18:39:31 [ht]
- NM, HST: WSRF
- 18:39:56 [ht]
- TBL: Worried none-the-less that we'll start seeing EPRs turning up as the only identifier for some resources
- 18:40:33 [ht]
- DO: I still think we should push for EPR-in-URI work, maybe from WSA WG, maybe with help from us
- 18:40:55 [noah]
- q+ discuss meta issue, scope of WG charters
- 18:40:56 [ht]
- ... Until that happens, as long as dispatching on QNames isn't addressed, people will use EPRs
- 18:41:06 [ht]
- DC: Thanks, that has helped
- 18:41:08 [Vincent]
- ack noah
- 18:41:46 [DanC]
- (I wonder if WS-RF is done, or still asking under review. I get "done" vibes from http://www.globus.org/wsrf/ )
- 18:42:19 [ht]
- NM: I'm concerned about the meta-question of scenarios in which a WG is doing something (SOAP endpoints, WSDL component naming, WSA and EPRs) where TAG feels more should be done -- how should we deal with this
- 18:42:46 [ht]
- ... I think this should be made more explicit in group charters, so that they're not surprised/upset when we come to them
- 18:42:54 [DanC]
- q+
- 18:43:33 [ht]
- DO: I think we are there with XMLP, WSDL did the HTTP binding for us, contributed to the schedule slip for WSDL2.0
- 18:43:42 [DanC]
- q+ to suggest 1st WG ftf as a time to expose WGs to webarch, no just charter, and to think again about CDF, EXI
- 18:44:00 [ht]
- ... WSA is moving much faster, maybe that's because they _didn't_ take so much care about WebArch issues
- 18:44:12 [Vincent]
- ack DanC
- 18:44:12 [Zakim]
- DanC, you wanted to suggest 1st WG ftf as a time to expose WGs to webarch, no just charter, and to think again about CDF, EXI
- 18:44:23 [ht]
- ... Certainly agree that if we're going to enforce expectations about WebArch on groups, we should signal that early
- 18:44:54 [ht]
- DC: Doing it via the charter is not clearly the best route, rather get it in the culture at their first f2f. . .
- 18:44:58 [Zakim]
- -Roy
- 18:45:39 [ht]
- NM: We could consider internal guidelines -- e.g. when people say "Hey, do some RDF for that too", are you allowed to ignore that, or is it obligatory, or . . .
- 18:46:06 [ht]
- ... People are legitimately confused about how this all applies to their WG
- 18:46:17 [ht]
- ... They need help getting a consistent reading on this stuff
- 18:46:33 [ht]
- VQ: The agenda item is not about this general issue
- 18:46:35 [DanC]
- (yes, back to the proposal to accept this wording with thanks.)
- 18:47:04 [ht]
- ... So how do we reply to their proposed text?
- 18:47:27 [ht]
- ... I think I hear consensus that they've done a good thing, as far as it goes.
- 18:47:52 [ht]
- RESOLVED: We are satisfied with the text they propose to add
- 18:48:02 [ht]
- ACTION: NM to convey this to the WSA WG
- 18:48:39 [ht]
- HST: Perhaps the meta-topic would be a good agenda item for the f2f
- 18:49:04 [ht]
- Topic: Roy Fielding issue wrap-up
- 18:49:19 [ht]
- VQ: Roy has left the call. . .
- 18:49:45 [ht]
- ... Review his pending actions: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/actions_owner.html#RF
- 18:51:28 [ht]
- VQ: wrt metadataInURI-31, no progress, RF suggests to drop the action
- 18:51:39 [ht]
- ... NM was involved too -- Noah?
- 18:52:04 [ht]
- NM: I've been trying to uncover the history, I get added to this late in the game, don't really know the history
- 18:52:34 [ht]
- ... Haven't made any progress -- we should assume it has fallen through the cracks
- 18:53:03 [ht]
- ... I would prefer to get off the hook on this to focus on other issues on my plate
- 18:53:17 [ht]
- DC: I'm torn about this
- 18:53:29 [ht]
- TBL: Related to URIGoodPractices-40
- 18:53:41 [ht]
- q+ to mention persistent identifiers
- 18:54:14 [ht]
- DO: URIGP-40 was just a response to RF's assertion that parentheses are bad in fragIDs, we can let that go
- 18:54:32 [ht]
- ... but mIU-31 is more serious
- 18:54:53 [ht]
- NM: I see we have a draft from Stewart, but I can't tell why it didn't go forward. . .
- 18:55:02 [ht]
- [need URI for minutes]
- 18:55:18 [ht]
- DO: I think there's lots of good stuff in there
- 18:55:29 [timbl]
- q?
- 18:55:54 [ht]
- NM: I asked because if there's broad agreement on what's there I'm more sanguine about taking it on
- 18:56:02 [DanC]
- q+
- 18:56:07 [Vincent]
- ack ht
- 18:56:07 [Zakim]
- ht, you wanted to mention persistent identifiers
- 18:56:28 [timbl]
- - HTML forms
- 18:57:04 [Vincent]
- ack DanC
- 18:57:05 [ht]
- ... But if people aren't clear about where we are
- 18:57:05 [DanC]
- ack danc
- 18:57:38 [ht]
- HST: The InfSci community cares about this, it's one of the reasons they keep inventing new URI schemes
- 18:57:58 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#metadataInURI-31
- 18:58:03 [ht]
- ... But I don't have much time now to help move the issue forward, don't even know what the draft says
- 18:58:19 [DanC]
- (my hazy recollection of stuart's draft is that it's too long)
- 18:58:27 [ht]
- DC: I feel similarly, would pick it up if it were going to drop altogether, but that wouldn't get it moving any time soon
- 18:58:53 [ht]
- NM: I can pick this up, but it will go on the queue behind other things
- 18:59:03 [ht]
- ... but again, no time soon
- 18:59:14 [ht]
- DC: Don't drop the issue, but drop all the actions against it
- 18:59:27 [ht]
- DO: I think this is _more_ important than schemeProtocols
- 18:59:50 [ht]
- VQ: We can't leave actions pending against people who have left
- 19:00:15 [noah]
- NM: Actually, I can also pick this up and put it ahead of schemeProtocols
- 19:00:20 [ht]
- ... So let's withdraw the action wrt mIU-31 against his name
- 19:00:21 [noah]
- DO: Yes, ahead of schemeProtocols
- 19:00:37 [DanC]
- (I'd suggest dropping the action on SW similarly)
- 19:00:52 [ht]
- NM: I need guidance on relative priority soon
- 19:01:29 [ht]
- HST: See DC's suggestion
- 19:01:35 [ht]
- VQ: OK, will do that too
- 19:01:53 [noah]
- NM: I.e. I'm about to turn back to schemeProtocols as PLP settles down (I hope). If the group prefers I do metadataInURI first, then I'd rather know that before I swap SchemeProtocols back in. Thanks.
- 19:02:05 [noah]
- VQ: Noah, settle it in email?
- 19:02:09 [noah]
- NM: fine, thanks.
- 19:02:13 [ht]
- VQ: so, next action on RF's list is putMediaType-38
- 19:02:54 [DanC]
- +1 continue
- 19:02:55 [ht]
- ... RF promises to deliver final draft in Mandelieu at the end of February
- 19:03:16 [ht]
- ... Next one is uriGP-40
- 19:03:28 [Norm]
- Get Roy to deliver his action!
- 19:03:44 [Norm]
- :)
- 19:03:54 [DanC]
- q+
- 19:04:21 [ht]
- VQ: RF does not expect he would get consensus for whatever he wrote
- 19:04:39 [Vincent]
- ack danc
- 19:04:53 [ht]
- DC: Let's remove this from the issues list
- 19:05:01 [ht]
- ... Covered elsewhere, I won't miss it
- 19:05:19 [ht]
- VQ: Others happy with that?
- 19:05:26 [ht]
- HST: Yes
- 19:05:57 [ht]
- RESOLVED: uriGoodPractice-40 is to be removed from the list
- 19:06:10 [ht]
- VQ: Usual announcement?
- 19:06:38 [ht]
- TBL: We need to leave pointers for posterity
- 19:06:54 [ht]
- DO: I don't think the () issue exists elsewhere, will just get lost
- 19:07:20 [ht]
- DC: I'm happy for it be lost until someone cares enough to pick it up
- 19:08:08 [ht]
- DO: History is that in the discussion of abstractComponentRefs-?? when XML Schema WG/WSDL WG said they would use XPointer, RF said "(), bleuch", so we raised a new issue
- 19:08:30 [ht]
- ... We closed aCR-37
- 19:08:43 [ht]
- DC: Hold on, aCR-37 is open
- 19:09:00 [ht]
- DO: We told the WSDL WG we were not going to push back further on this point
- 19:09:17 [ht]
- ... I think these two issues are orthogonal and should be treated as such
- 19:09:27 [timbl]
- Where does it say why not to use () ?
- 19:09:32 [DanC]
- nowhere
- 19:09:47 [DanC]
- on the contrary; XPointer, a W3C Recommendation, says _to_ use ()s
- 19:09:48 [ht]
- ... As long as we're happy that people can use ()s in fragids, we don't need this issue
- 19:10:00 [timbl]
- Let us write soemwhere taht it is a bad idea becaus eyou can't use qname-like shorthand for them.
- 19:10:18 [ht]
- DO: If that ever becomes a problem, then we should come back to this
- 19:11:07 [ht]
- TBL: So QNames were iintroduced to minimize the burden of long URIs, but ()s in fragids render this solution unavailble
- 19:13:34 [ht]
- HST: I agree with DanC -- that issue, i.e. should any kind of fragIDs other than barenames be avoided, because they bar the use of QNames, is being discussed regularly by the TAG under other headings
- 19:13:56 [ht]
- VQ: DO, are you happy for this issue to be dropped
- 19:14:15 [timbl]
- Let's keep the issue.
- 19:14:24 [ht]
- DO: I think it was important to separate out from aCR-37, because it's orthogonal
- 19:14:39 [ht]
- DC: I don't agree it's orthogonal, but I don't care about it, either
- 19:14:49 [ht]
- TBL: Move to 'someday' pile
- 19:15:11 [DanC]
- (I'm happy to leave 40 around until 37 is closed)
- 19:15:11 [ht]
- DO: OK, remove all actions against it, leave it rest until someone feels we need to resurrect it
- 19:15:48 [ht]
- VQ: To conclude, no consensus to drop the issue, we need to leave that for now
- 19:16:11 [ht]
- ... For the sake of a clear history, we'll keep it open, but remove all pending actions
- 19:16:35 [ht]
- RESOLVED: Remove pending actions on RF wrt uriGP-40
- 19:17:01 [ht]
- [supersedes previous resolution wrt uriGP-40]
- 19:17:19 [ht]
- VQ: That's it for RF's outstanding actions
- 19:18:01 [ht]
- VQ: In Norm's absence, let's postpone this to a subsequent meeting
- 19:18:15 [ht]
- Topic: Principle of Least Power
- 19:18:24 [ht]
- New draft: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html
- 19:18:28 [noah]
- Draft in date space:
- 19:18:30 [noah]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower-2006-01-23.html
- 19:18:38 [DanC]
- (tim, did you realize you wrote DesignIssues/Meaning , re xmlFunctions-34 and self-describing web?)
- 19:19:04 [DanC]
- q+ to ask why the principle is in a GPN box, twice
- 19:19:56 [ht]
- NM: Reordered the flow, cleaned up some details (SQL Turing complete?), security concerns, what _is_ Turing completeness
- 19:20:15 [ht]
- ... Comment that there are downsides -- too simple isn't good either (Occam lives)
- 19:20:39 [ht]
- ... RDF discussion untangled from HTML discussion
- 19:21:07 [ht]
- ... New section (3) on scalable language families (OWLxxx, Javascript +/- Objects)
- 19:21:20 [ht]
- ... Hope this is close to ready to ship
- 19:21:31 [Vincent]
- ack DanC
- 19:21:33 [Zakim]
- DanC, you wanted to ask why the principle is in a GPN box, twice
- 19:21:45 [ht]
- DC: Why not a principle?
- 19:22:08 [ht]
- NM: I could see it go either way
- 19:22:19 [ht]
- ... Willing to change it
- 19:22:28 [ht]
- DC: Why hasn't this be changed before?
- 19:22:36 [ht]
- NM: Clerical error, I suspect
- 19:22:57 [ht]
- TBL: It's definitely a principle
- 19:22:57 [noah]
- Good Practice: When publishing on the Web, choose the least powerful or most easily analyzed language variant that's suitable for the purpose.
- 19:23:04 [ht]
- NM: What about the added one about scalable
- 19:23:10 [ht]
- HST prefers GP for that
- 19:23:34 [ht]
- DC: That one _is_ phrased as a GP
- 19:23:53 [ht]
- ... task is to get the first one into a non-imperative form
- 19:24:21 [ht]
- TBL: Right, rephrase it to make it look like a principle
- 19:24:21 [timbl]
- The more powerful the language the less reusable the information.
- 19:24:29 [ht]
- DC: Other stuff is good
- 19:24:42 [ht]
- ... Scope creep is a risk
- 19:24:56 [ht]
- NM: Yes, everybody wants to add a bit more
- 19:25:16 [ht]
- DC: Confirmed: the second box is to be left as a GP, but the first box needs to be a Principle
- 19:25:57 [DanC]
- PROPOSED: to approve leastPower-2006-01-23 + change 1st GPN to principle, contingent on thumbs up by @@(me? DanC?)
- 19:26:11 [ht]
- NM: I can make that small change in a day or two
- 19:26:21 [ht]
- DC: I'm happy to make a decision today
- 19:27:02 [ht]
- HST: Not ready to approve sight-unseen, sorry
- 19:27:27 [ht]
- NM: Target is consensus two weeks today, pending new sentence in email/new draft by the end of the week
- 19:27:52 [ht]
- ACTION: NM to circulate revised sentence for the Principle by Friday 27
- 19:27:55 [DanC]
- (The biggest risk is that nobody will look at the revision right away, and then we'll forget in 2 weeks, and then noah will forget to change the GPN to a principle again ;-)
- 19:28:47 [ht]
- VQ: Nearing the end of the call -- we will come back WSDL/RDF next week
- 19:28:57 [noah]
- I think Tim's proposal of "The more powerful the language the less reusable the information." seems right, or at least very close.
- 19:29:08 [noah]
- I'll start with that and noodle on it.
- 19:29:11 [ht]
- DC: Two weeks, because TBL is critical resource
- 19:29:16 [Zakim]
- -DOrchard
- 19:29:17 [Zakim]
- -Ht
- 19:29:18 [Zakim]
- -Noah_Mendelsohn
- 19:29:21 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 19:29:21 [Zakim]
- -Vincent
- 19:29:27 [ht]
- RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
- 19:29:45 [ht]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 19:29:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-tagmem-minutes.html ht
- 19:31:12 [ht]
- Zakim, bye
- 19:31:12 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, Ht, Vincent, TimBL, DOrchard, DanC, Roy
- 19:31:12 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #tagmem
- 19:31:26 [ht]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 19:31:26 [RRSAgent]
- I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-tagmem-actions.rdf :
- 19:31:26 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: VQ to prepare a summary in the next few days, circulate to tag@w3.org for review, then go public depending on feedback [1]
- 19:31:26 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-tagmem-irc#T18-16-43
- 19:31:26 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: NM to convey this to the WSA WG [2]
- 19:31:26 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-tagmem-irc#T18-48-02
- 19:31:26 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: NM to circulate revised sentence for the Principle by Friday 27 [3]
- 19:31:26 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-tagmem-irc#T19-27-52