13:55:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:55:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-irc
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13:56:01 <RalphS> zakim, this will be swbp
13:56:01 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:24 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
13:57:22 <Steven> Steven has joined #swbp
13:57:57 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jan/0029.html
13:58:27 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-01-17 http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes
14:00:05 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
14:00:12 <Zakim> +Ralph
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14:01:21 <benadida> benadida has joined #swbp
14:01:39 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:02:09 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:02:09 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:02:11 <Zakim> +Steven
14:02:17 <Zakim> +Mark_Birbeck
14:05:15 <RalphS> Topic: change meeting day?
14:05:49 <RalphS> Steven: Mondays ok up to 1500 UTC end
14:06:14 <RalphS> s/1500/1600/
14:06:25 <RalphS> ... i.e. could start a 1-hour call as late as 1500 UTC
14:07:09 <RalphS> Mark: Monday up to 1530 UTC end
14:07:22 <Zakim> +??P3
14:07:34 <RalphS> zakim, ??p3 is Jeremy
14:07:34 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
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14:09:42 <RalphS> Ben: Monday ok
14:11:09 <RalphS> RESOLVED: TF telecons scheduled for 1400 UTC Mondays
14:12:40 <RalphS> Topic: WD Status
14:12:55 <RalphS> Ben: SWBPD WG approved RDF/A Primer to go to first public Working Draft
14:14:11 <RalphS> Ralph: yes, the WG is expecting only small editorial changes now to the Editor's Draft 
14:14:27 <RalphS> Mark: there are still some small examples we wanted to get in
14:14:34 <RalphS> ... before it's a draft in public space
14:15:10 <RalphS> ... I posted a merged document with these examples last week
14:16:16 <RalphS> Ralph: yes, I thought we were going to include Mark's merged stuff in what the WG reviewers saw
14:16:52 <RalphS> Jeremy: propose that we create the version we meant to present and then tell the WG we made a mistake and ask the reviewers to look at [just] the additional text
14:18:01 <RalphS> ... we can ask this on the WG mailing list and the decision should involve the chairs
14:18:50 <benadida> ACTION: contact WG and chairs to notify of mistake and prepare the new version.
14:19:20 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark to send Ben his latest XML version of the Primer
14:22:01 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email
14:22:31 <jeremy> which URL for this e-mail?
14:23:48 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Nov/0007
14:25:08 <RalphS> [PENDING] ACTION: All in the TF to look at http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/ to decide whether it's ready for WG review [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action03]
14:25:37 <RalphS> Mark: I recall looking at this ages ago and there was one issue, perhaps about use of types for documents
14:25:47 <RalphS> Steven: something about resource and document
14:26:00 <RalphS> Mark: something that required documentation, raised by Dan
14:26:33 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben draft a response to Gary Ng's comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action04]
14:26:42 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben respond to Pat's RDF/A comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action01]
14:26:51 <RalphS> [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to draft a new example of RDF/A as an XHTML document that is its own RSS feed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action05]
14:27:20 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Steven confirm an answer on issue 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#action02]
14:27:28 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jan/0018.html
14:28:35 <RalphS> Steven: my conclusion is that although there are cases where it can be useful, it causes more problems than it solves
14:28:54 <RalphS> ... so this is a place where we should duplicate the URL 
14:29:34 <RalphS> Ralph: seems simpler to duplicate the data than complicate the rules
14:29:46 <RalphS> Steven: I considered several different approaches
14:30:06 <RalphS> ... each one either made another useful use case disappear or made it less obvious what was being expressed
14:30:27 <RalphS> Jeremy: @about overriding @src was the cleanest one in my mind
14:31:22 <RalphS> ... KISS does seem to argue against this override
14:31:45 <MarkB> q+
14:32:19 <RalphS> ... simpler rules at the expense of occasionally having to duplicate seems acceptable but let's document this and be sure to apply it consistently
14:32:51 <RalphS> Mark: rather than putting src in the same category as href and about, let's say IMG becomes an anonymous node
14:33:16 <RalphS> ... so the element IMG has a title rather than the resource at foo.png
14:35:54 <RalphS> Ralph: why is it useful to say that a bnode has a title?
14:38:33 <RalphS> Ralph: that's a mess we need to clean up -- and the TAG has proposed a solution
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14:39:17 <RalphS> Mark: when we add a property to an image, folk who go retrieve that image won't find the title text
14:40:06 <RalphS> Jeremy: I tend to think that one can always improve the quality of a model -- that is, the accuracy -- by adding another level of bnodes
14:41:29 <RalphS> ... people who are satisfied with the model they have argue against adding layers of bnodes
14:42:10 <RalphS> Mark: Steven? pointed out last week that src was identifying the object rather than the subject
14:42:42 <RalphS> ... it's as if <img> were <span rel='image' href='foo.png'>
14:43:11 <RalphS> s/img/img src='foo.png'/
14:43:54 <RalphS> Ben: if you include META and LINK within IMG now then those properties are attached to the image element
14:44:34 <RalphS> Mark: src can be on any element; what it points to depends on the element
14:44:44 <RalphS> ... so it's like href
14:45:03 <RalphS> Steven: intuitively, more authors will think src is like href -- and not a subject
14:46:02 <RalphS> TENTATIVE CONCLUSION: src is like href and does not identify a triple subject
14:46:21 <RalphS> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics 
14:46:36 <RalphS> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Jeremy followup on <head about=...> edge case
14:47:01 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes
14:47:06 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#ActionSummary[CONTINUES] ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list
14:47:11 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2006/01/17-swbp-minutes#ActionSummary
14:47:27 <RalphS> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list
14:48:35 <RalphS> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification
14:50:01 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed
14:50:19 <RalphS> Mark: we may want to devote an entire telecon to the related reification question
14:52:16 <RalphS> Jeremy: reification is not must-have for me; it's too broken
14:55:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed
14:55:06 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make this record public
14:56:37 <RalphS> Ben: can we try to take up nested META, reification, and the implementation on 13 Feb?
14:56:53 <RalphS> Jeremy: [reluctantly] will try
14:57:20 <jeremy> Jeremy: using named graphs in RDF/A is to big a step from current SW standards
14:57:35 <jeremy> (relates to earlier discussion about reification)
14:57:49 <RalphS> next meeting: Monday 30 Jan 1400 UTC
14:58:04 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed
14:59:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed
14:59:51 <Zakim> -Steven
14:59:53 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:59:54 <Zakim> -Mark_Birbeck
14:59:54 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:59:58 <Zakim> -Jeremy
14:59:59 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:00:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, Mark_Birbeck, Jeremy
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15:11:52 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:11:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html RalphS
15:12:14 <benadida> benadida has left #swbp
15:14:56 <Steven> rrsagent is slow producing thos minutes
15:15:34 <Steven> Chair: Ben
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17:13:35 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
17:13:35 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-actions.rdf :
17:13:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: contact WG and chairs to notify of mistake and prepare the new version. [1]
17:13:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-irc#T14-18-50
17:13:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to send Ben his latest XML version of the Primer [2]
17:13:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-irc#T14-19-20
17:13:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [3]
17:13:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-irc#T14-22-01