14:31:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:31:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-dawg-irc
14:31:43 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
14:31:43 <Zakim> +DanC
14:31:54 <ericP> Meeting: RDF Data Access
14:32:01 <ericP> Chair: DanC
14:32:02 <DanC> Zakim, take up item Convene
14:32:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:15 <DanC> Regrets: libby
14:32:17 <ericP> Scribe: EricP
14:32:24 <ericP> Scribe: ericP
14:32:32 <Zakim> +PatH
14:34:59 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Jan/0063 major technical: semantics are poorly specified
14:35:09 <LeeF> zakim, mute me please
14:35:09 <Zakim> LeeF should now be muted
14:35:22 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:35:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, EliasT, jeen, EricP, LeeF (muted), Sven_Groppe, Kendall_Clark, DanC, PatH
14:36:13 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/att-0138/17-dawg-minutes-edited.htm minutes 17 Jan
14:36:15 <EnricoFranconi> EnricoFranconi has joined #DAWG
14:36:23 <DanC> agenda + ftf update
14:36:29 <kendallclark> Pretty sad that I can recognize EricP's typing over telcon audio... Stockholm Syndrom for Geeks?
14:36:45 <Zakim> -EricP
14:37:03 <ericP> zakim, please dial ericP-415
14:37:03 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:37:19 <kendallclark> 2nd
14:37:39 <DanC> RESOLVED to accept minutes 17 Jan
14:38:10 <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet again Thu, 26 Jan 1600Z; recruit scribe
14:38:16 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
14:38:17 <kendallclark> zakim, mute me
14:38:17 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:38:24 <DanC> regrets JeenB for 26 Jan
14:38:25 <LeeF> I can scribe.
14:38:28 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (4%), jeen (44%), Sven_Groppe (8%), EricP (40%)
14:39:01 <DanC> RESOLVED: to meet again 26 Jan, lee to scribe
14:39:23 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:39:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD)" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:16 <DanC> FYI: wg extended to 1 May
14:40:23 <kendallclark> zakim, unmute me
14:40:23 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:40:42 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/#sched wg schedule
14:40:57 <ericP> DanC: Activity extended through 1 May, (and implicitly DAWG charter?)
14:41:21 <kendallclark> yay
14:41:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:41:29 <EnricoFranconi> zakim, IPcaller is me
14:41:29 <Zakim> +EnricoFranconi; got it
14:41:35 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:41:35 <Zakim> agendum 3. "issues rdfSemantics, owlDisjunction" taken up [from DanC]
14:41:38 <ericP> ... extension message cited in the histroy section
14:41:47 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/#hist histroy section
14:42:06 <DanC> PROPOSED: that SPARQL QL editor's draft v1.613 2006/01/23 13:13:08 addresses issue rdfSemantics and is sufficient to postpone issue owlDisjunction.
14:42:21 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ editor's draft of SPARQL QL
14:42:37 <DanC> EF: 2nd
14:42:37 <ericP> Enrico: agreed
14:43:00 <LeeF> There are still a bunch of @@'s in the current draft.
14:43:07 <LeeF> (Well, maybe not a bunch, but some.)
14:43:14 <ericP> PatH: has options. needs editorial completion
14:43:40 <ericP> AndyS: two proposals on how to frame extensions in a separate document
14:43:50 <ericP> ... 1. set of hooks
14:44:07 <kendallclark> (there's an extensions document?)
14:44:27 <ericP> ... 2. extension document gives relations back to the core (SPARQL Query) document
14:44:46 <ericP> ... pref to keep as much in the extension document as possible
14:44:57 <LeeF> zakim, unmute me
14:44:59 <Zakim> LeeF should no longer be muted
14:45:05 <Zakim> -LeeF
14:45:36 <ericP> PatH: my second issue (mail sent last night): definition of graph pattern
14:45:37 <Zakim> +LeeF
14:45:48 <Jos_De_Roo> Jos_De_Roo has joined #dawg
14:46:31 <patH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0246
14:46:53 <Zakim> +Jos_De_Roo
14:46:59 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0246 PatH's mail stating his second issue
14:50:17 <ericP> Enrico: PatH's proposal doesn't close the RDFS and OWL entailment
14:50:32 <ericP> ... extensions have to *contradict* the standard
14:50:37 <DanC> Zakim, is Sven on the phone?
14:50:37 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, DanC.
14:50:38 <patH> Enrico is wrong about that. For OWL we do need to adjust things.
14:50:43 <DanC> Zakim, is Sven here?
14:50:43 <Zakim> probably, DanC; Sven_Groppe arrived 19 minutes ago
14:50:59 <SvenGroppe> SvenGroppe has joined #dawg
14:51:43 <ericP> ... introducing simple entailment gives you upward compatibility problems
14:52:05 <ericP> PatH: we can fix the wording to address this in the current text
14:52:10 <DanC> (musts and shoulds are for protocols)
14:53:27 <ericP> Enrico: why not just have subgraph matching in the core document?
14:56:06 <kendallclark> I just don't believe shutting off discussion *in this way* is especially helpful or fair or even polite. My two cents.
14:56:19 <ericP> Enrico: are we agreeing that we have a normative general definition?
14:57:38 <ericP> PatH: should the SPARQL spec place normative constraints on how logic extension behave?
14:59:36 <ericP> ... I think we can take your point under advisement and satisfy your request
15:00:25 <patH> the current text has the general defintion as normative. We just said this is acceptable, up to editorail changes. Edirtorial changes do not change normativity , so :-)
15:00:41 <patH> That was adresed to Enrico.
15:02:28 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, EliasT, jeen, Sven_Groppe, Kendall_Clark, DanC, PatH, EricP, EnricoFranconi, LeeF, Jos_De_Roo
15:02:37 <EliasT> abstain
15:02:40 <EliasT> I'm muted
15:02:46 <ericP> Enrico: Will we keep the definition of ordered merge and scoping set, ... all of section 2.5
15:02:50 <EliasT> I don't know
15:02:56 <DanC> ack jeen
15:03:23 <ericP> Jeen: don't know -- abstain
15:03:37 <ericP> Sven: i think that ordered merge definition is not formal enough
15:03:43 <DanC> Sven gets a gold star for coming up to speed quickly.
15:04:15 <ericP> ... it's currently semiformal
15:04:26 <ericP> KendallC: we're generally happy with that section
15:04:35 <kendallclark> *very informatively*
15:05:12 <ericP> DanC: don't find ordered merge (seems complex) appealing, but if it describes peoples code, am reluctanly happy with it
15:05:17 <kendallclark> (pure curiosity, dan!)
15:05:29 <ericP> PatH: don't think we need ordered merge. rest are fine
15:06:17 <DanC> q+ to note a new requirement on the horizon
15:06:20 <kendallclark> is the referent of "extensions document" real or imaginary?
15:06:27 <AndyS> imaginary
15:06:32 <kendallclark> thx
15:07:18 <ericP> ericP: would like someone to write an extension document and see if it contradicts the spec. happy either way. more confident if the extension is attempted
15:07:31 <DanC> lee also gets a gold star for following many details
15:08:07 <ericP> LeeF: happier if we don't need ordered merge and d-entailment in the core spec, but if we need that for upwards compatibile, i'm happy
15:08:33 <LeeF> s/d-entailment/e-entailment/
15:08:48 <ericP> JosD: Disagree that it does not say that blank nodes in a graph pattern are variables
15:09:02 <ericP> s/Disagree that/Disagree because/
15:09:31 <ericP> AndyS: current inclination is to not use ordered merge and use the ^^:: text
15:09:54 <ericP> ... the ordered merge is not how implementations do it
15:10:12 <DanC> (it's not a priority for me that the formal definitions match implementation techniques)
15:10:37 <ericP> ... we've rushed through how SPARQL is extended. concentrating on simple entailment with as much latitude as is reasonable
15:10:42 <kendallclark> zakim, mute me
15:10:42 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:10:53 <EnricoFranconi> implementations do subgraph matching, not ordered merge
15:10:53 <AndyS> s/^^::/@@**/
15:10:55 <ericP> tx
15:11:00 <EnricoFranconi> ordered merge is useful only for upward compatibility
15:13:28 <ericP> ACTION: PatH revise Enrico's "Proposed changes" on matching and entailment for solution sequences, esp w.r.t. RDFmerge/order. seems done; there has certainly been lots of relevant mail [DONE]
15:13:39 <DanC> proposal to edit readme http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0145.html
15:13:42 <ericP> action -1
15:14:02 <ericP> ACTION: Enrico to review draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences seems done; there has certainly been lots of relevant mail [DONE]
15:14:10 <ericP> action -2
15:14:18 <DanC> ACTION AndyS: implement test README change from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0145.html
15:14:30 <DanC> # ACTION: JosD to make test case from Sergio's basic query patterns examples
15:14:42 <Jos_De_Roo> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0040.html
15:16:13 <ericP> [discussion of ACTION: JosD to make test case from Sergio's basic query patterns examples]
15:18:21 <ericP> DanC: AndyS, what would the disposition of these tests be with would your favorite definitions?
15:19:07 <ericP> AndyS: yes to 1. requires new text in the test cases doc.
15:19:51 <ericP> PatH: current definitions break the second answer
15:21:14 <ericP> ACTION: JosD to put http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0040 into a test manifest
15:21:44 <LeeF> The 3rd solution breaks some of the coreferentiality of _:a_0
15:26:31 <DanC> ACTION AndyS: revise rq23 to remove @@s from 2.5
15:27:24 <ericP> ACTION: JosD to make test case from Sergio's basic query patterns examples [DONE]
15:27:34 <ericP> action -6
15:27:46 <DanC> Zakim, next item
15:27:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "issues#valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]
15:27:47 <patH> eric, you sound like you are inside a very long metal tube.
15:28:09 <Zakim> -EnricoFranconi
15:28:53 <ericP> agenda?
15:29:20 <kendallclark> zakim, unmute me
15:29:20 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:29:20 <ericP> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:29:21 <Zakim> agendum 4. "issues#valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]
15:29:32 <kendallclark> zakim, mute me
15:29:32 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:30:23 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#FunctionMapping
15:31:48 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#evaluation
15:31:55 <DanC> "Casting in SPARQL is performed by calling a constructor function for the target type on an operand of the source type."
15:32:55 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#operandDataTypes
15:33:03 <DanC> PROPOPSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.613 section 11 addresses issues#valueTesting
15:33:42 <DanC> (looking for comments pending on this issue... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#valueTesting )
15:34:11 <DanC> q+ to ask about Levering's question http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0011
15:34:19 <DanC> ack danc
15:34:19 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask about Levering's question http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0011
15:35:18 <DanC> PatH: note equivilence typo
15:35:25 <ericP> DanC: can you address Ryan Levering'S comment?
15:35:50 <ericP> EricP: yes, current text addresses them
15:35:53 <kendallclark> zakim, unmute me
15:35:53 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:36:08 <DanC> RESOLVED, UMD abstaining
15:36:18 <DanC> RESOLVED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.613 section 11 addresses issues#valueTesting
15:36:38 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
15:36:38 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:36:39 <Zakim> 4. issues#valueTesting [from DanC]
15:36:40 <Zakim> 5. Toward CR [from DanC]
15:36:41 <Zakim> 6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]
15:36:43 <Zakim> 7. ftf update [from DanC]
15:36:48 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 7
15:36:48 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ftf update" taken up [from DanC]
15:37:29 <patH> OK
15:37:33 <ericP> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/thread#msg151
15:37:46 <AndyS> F2F: 2/3 March at Cannes (W3C all groups meetng)
15:38:17 <AndyS> Agenda covers: LC issues + features to postpone + SPARQL v2
15:38:29 <DanC> q+ to ask in stongest possible terms that we finish LC comments well before the TP
15:39:00 <AndyS> Also meeting #SWIG (Thurs) and RIF (MoTu), SWBPD?
15:39:19 <AndyS> SWBPD maybe Friday
15:39:22 <DanC> ack danc
15:39:22 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask in stongest possible terms that we finish LC comments well before the TP
15:39:56 <AndyS> DanC suggests strongly not having LC issues on agenda
15:40:36 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TP2006/ registration
15:40:38 <kendallclark> I would love to come to Cannes again... but I didn't know we were meeting and I declined the trip when my boss asked. :)
15:40:41 <kendallclark> oh well
15:40:59 <AndyS> we conclude registration is open (for all meetings at AllGroups)
15:41:11 <DanC> (to repeat: I'm more likely to be at the IG meeting than at DAWG)
15:41:14 <patH> I very much doubt I will be able to make it, but could phone in to any discussions if its worth trying. 
15:41:31 <kendallclark> zakim, unmute me
15:41:31 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendallclark
15:41:32 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
15:41:32 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:41:34 <Zakim> 4. issues#valueTesting [from DanC]
15:41:35 <Zakim> 5. Toward CR [from DanC]
15:41:37 <Zakim> 6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]
15:41:38 <Zakim> 7. ftf update [from DanC]
15:41:52 <DanC> Zakim, close item 4
15:41:52 <Zakim> agendum 4, issues#valueTesting, closed
15:41:53 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:41:54 <Zakim> 5. Toward CR [from DanC]
15:42:22 <DanC> Zakim, close item 5
15:42:22 <Zakim> agendum 5, Toward CR, closed
15:42:24 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:42:27 <DanC> ADJOURN.
15:42:28 <Zakim> 6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]
15:42:31 <ericP> ADJOURNED
15:42:33 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
15:42:37 <Zakim> -EliasT
15:42:38 <Zakim> -jeen
15:42:46 <Zakim> -PatH
15:44:55 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:44:56 <AndyS> AndyS has left #dawg
15:46:05 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:46:06 <Zakim> -DanC
15:46:10 <Zakim> -Jos_De_Roo
15:46:26 <Zakim> -EricP
15:46:37 <Zakim> -Sven_Groppe
15:46:39 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
15:46:40 <Zakim> Attendees were Sven_Groppe, AndyS, jeen, EliasT, EricP, LeeF, Kendall_Clark, DanC, PatH, EnricoFranconi, Jos_De_Roo
15:47:07 <SvenGroppe> SvenGroppe has left #dawg
15:57:52 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #dawg
16:06:10 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #dawg
16:41:19 <EliasT> RRSAgent, please stop