IRC log of dawg on 2006-01-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:31:38 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:31:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-dawg-irc

14:31:43 [patH]

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14:31:43 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:31:54 [ericP]

Meeting: RDF Data Access

14:32:01 [ericP]

Chair: DanC

14:32:02 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item Convene

14:32:02 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC]

14:32:15 [DanC]

Regrets: libby

14:32:17 [ericP]

Scribe: EricP

14:32:24 [ericP]

Scribe: ericP

14:32:32 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:34:59 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Jan/0063 major technical: semantics are poorly specified

14:35:09 [LeeF]

zakim, mute me please

14:35:09 [Zakim]

LeeF should now be muted

14:35:22 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:35:22 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, EliasT, jeen, EricP, LeeF (muted), Sven_Groppe, Kendall_Clark, DanC, PatH

14:36:13 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/att-0138/17-dawg-minutes-edited.htm minutes 17 Jan

14:36:15 [EnricoFranconi]

EnricoFranconi has joined #DAWG

14:36:23 [DanC]

agenda + ftf update

14:36:29 [kendallclark]

Pretty sad that I can recognize EricP's typing over telcon audio... Stockholm Syndrom for Geeks?

14:36:45 [Zakim]

-EricP

14:37:03 [ericP]

zakim, please dial ericP-415

14:37:03 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; the call is being made

14:37:04 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:37:19 [kendallclark]

2nd

14:37:39 [DanC]

RESOLVED to accept minutes 17 Jan

14:38:10 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to meet again Thu, 26 Jan 1600Z; recruit scribe

14:38:16 [DanC]

Zakim, who's talking?

14:38:17 [kendallclark]

zakim, mute me

14:38:17 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:38:24 [DanC]

regrets JeenB for 26 Jan

14:38:25 [LeeF]

I can scribe.

14:38:28 [Zakim]

DanC, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (4%), jeen (44%), Sven_Groppe (8%), EricP (40%)

14:39:01 [DanC]

RESOLVED: to meet again 26 Jan, lee to scribe

14:39:23 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:39:23 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD)" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:16 [DanC]

FYI: wg extended to 1 May

14:40:23 [kendallclark]

zakim, unmute me

14:40:23 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:40:42 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/#sched wg schedule

14:40:57 [ericP]

DanC: Activity extended through 1 May, (and implicitly DAWG charter?)

14:41:21 [kendallclark]

yay

14:41:23 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:41:29 [EnricoFranconi]

zakim, IPcaller is me

14:41:29 [Zakim]

+EnricoFranconi; got it

14:41:35 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:41:35 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "issues rdfSemantics, owlDisjunction" taken up [from DanC]

14:41:38 [ericP]

... extension message cited in the histroy section

14:41:47 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/#hist histroy section

14:42:06 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that SPARQL QL editor's draft v1.613 2006/01/23 13:13:08 addresses issue rdfSemantics and is sufficient to postpone issue owlDisjunction.

14:42:21 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ editor's draft of SPARQL QL

14:42:37 [DanC]

EF: 2nd

14:42:37 [ericP]

Enrico: agreed

14:43:00 [LeeF]

There are still a bunch of @@'s in the current draft.

14:43:07 [LeeF]

(Well, maybe not a bunch, but some.)

14:43:14 [ericP]

PatH: has options. needs editorial completion

14:43:40 [ericP]

AndyS: two proposals on how to frame extensions in a separate document

14:43:50 [ericP]

... 1. set of hooks

14:44:07 [kendallclark]

(there's an extensions document?)

14:44:27 [ericP]

... 2. extension document gives relations back to the core (SPARQL Query) document

14:44:46 [ericP]

... pref to keep as much in the extension document as possible

14:44:57 [LeeF]

zakim, unmute me

14:44:59 [Zakim]

LeeF should no longer be muted

14:45:05 [Zakim]

-LeeF

14:45:36 [ericP]

PatH: my second issue (mail sent last night): definition of graph pattern

14:45:37 [Zakim]

+LeeF

14:45:48 [Jos_De_Roo]

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14:46:31 [patH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0246

14:46:53 [Zakim]

+Jos_De_Roo

14:46:59 [ericP]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0246 PatH's mail stating his second issue

14:50:17 [ericP]

Enrico: PatH's proposal doesn't close the RDFS and OWL entailment

14:50:32 [ericP]

... extensions have to *contradict* the standard

14:50:37 [DanC]

Zakim, is Sven on the phone?

14:50:37 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, DanC.

14:50:38 [patH]

Enrico is wrong about that. For OWL we do need to adjust things.

14:50:43 [DanC]

Zakim, is Sven here?

14:50:43 [Zakim]

probably, DanC; Sven_Groppe arrived 19 minutes ago

14:50:59 [SvenGroppe]

SvenGroppe has joined #dawg

14:51:43 [ericP]

... introducing simple entailment gives you upward compatibility problems

14:52:05 [ericP]

PatH: we can fix the wording to address this in the current text

14:52:10 [DanC]

(musts and shoulds are for protocols)

14:53:27 [ericP]

Enrico: why not just have subgraph matching in the core document?

14:56:06 [kendallclark]

I just don't believe shutting off discussion *in this way* is especially helpful or fair or even polite. My two cents.

14:56:19 [ericP]

Enrico: are we agreeing that we have a normative general definition?

14:57:38 [ericP]

PatH: should the SPARQL spec place normative constraints on how logic extension behave?

14:59:36 [ericP]

... I think we can take your point under advisement and satisfy your request

15:00:25 [patH]

the current text has the general defintion as normative. We just said this is acceptable, up to editorail changes. Edirtorial changes do not change normativity , so :-)

15:00:41 [patH]

That was adresed to Enrico.

15:02:28 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:02:28 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, EliasT, jeen, Sven_Groppe, Kendall_Clark, DanC, PatH, EricP, EnricoFranconi, LeeF, Jos_De_Roo

15:02:37 [EliasT]

abstain

15:02:40 [EliasT]

I'm muted

15:02:46 [ericP]

Enrico: Will we keep the definition of ordered merge and scoping set, ... all of section 2.5

15:02:50 [EliasT]

I don't know

15:02:56 [DanC]

ack jeen

15:03:23 [ericP]

Jeen: don't know -- abstain

15:03:37 [ericP]

Sven: i think that ordered merge definition is not formal enough

15:03:43 [DanC]

Sven gets a gold star for coming up to speed quickly.

15:04:15 [ericP]

... it's currently semiformal

15:04:26 [ericP]

KendallC: we're generally happy with that section

15:04:35 [kendallclark]

*very informatively*

15:05:12 [ericP]

DanC: don't find ordered merge (seems complex) appealing, but if it describes peoples code, am reluctanly happy with it

15:05:17 [kendallclark]

(pure curiosity, dan!)

15:05:29 [ericP]

PatH: don't think we need ordered merge. rest are fine

15:06:17 [DanC]

q+ to note a new requirement on the horizon

15:06:20 [kendallclark]

is the referent of "extensions document" real or imaginary?

15:06:27 [AndyS]

imaginary

15:06:32 [kendallclark]

thx

15:07:18 [ericP]

ericP: would like someone to write an extension document and see if it contradicts the spec. happy either way. more confident if the extension is attempted

15:07:31 [DanC]

lee also gets a gold star for following many details

15:08:07 [ericP]

LeeF: happier if we don't need ordered merge and d-entailment in the core spec, but if we need that for upwards compatibile, i'm happy

15:08:33 [LeeF]

s/d-entailment/e-entailment/

15:08:48 [ericP]

JosD: Disagree that it does not say that blank nodes in a graph pattern are variables

15:09:02 [ericP]

s/Disagree that/Disagree because/

15:09:31 [ericP]

AndyS: current inclination is to not use ordered merge and use the ^^:: text

15:09:54 [ericP]

... the ordered merge is not how implementations do it

15:10:12 [DanC]

(it's not a priority for me that the formal definitions match implementation techniques)

15:10:37 [ericP]

... we've rushed through how SPARQL is extended. concentrating on simple entailment with as much latitude as is reasonable

15:10:42 [kendallclark]

zakim, mute me

15:10:42 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:10:53 [EnricoFranconi]

implementations do subgraph matching, not ordered merge

15:10:53 [AndyS]

s/^^::/@@**/

15:10:55 [ericP]

tx

15:11:00 [EnricoFranconi]

ordered merge is useful only for upward compatibility

15:13:28 [ericP]

ACTION: PatH revise Enrico's "Proposed changes" on matching and entailment for solution sequences, esp w.r.t. RDFmerge/order. seems done; there has certainly been lots of relevant mail [DONE]

15:13:39 [DanC]

proposal to edit readme http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0145.html

15:13:42 [ericP]

action -1

15:14:02 [ericP]

ACTION: Enrico to review draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences seems done; there has certainly been lots of relevant mail [DONE]

15:14:10 [ericP]

action -2

15:14:18 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: implement test README change from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0145.html

15:14:30 [DanC]

# ACTION: JosD to make test case from Sergio's basic query patterns examples

15:14:42 [Jos_De_Roo]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0040.html

15:16:13 [ericP]

[discussion of ACTION: JosD to make test case from Sergio's basic query patterns examples]

15:18:21 [ericP]

DanC: AndyS, what would the disposition of these tests be with would your favorite definitions?

15:19:07 [ericP]

AndyS: yes to 1. requires new text in the test cases doc.

15:19:51 [ericP]

PatH: current definitions break the second answer

15:21:14 [ericP]

ACTION: JosD to put http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0040 into a test manifest

15:21:44 [LeeF]

The 3rd solution breaks some of the coreferentiality of _:a_0

15:26:31 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: revise rq23 to remove @@s from 2.5

15:27:24 [ericP]

ACTION: JosD to make test case from Sergio's basic query patterns examples [DONE]

15:27:34 [ericP]

action -6

15:27:46 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:27:46 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "issues#valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]

15:27:47 [patH]

eric, you sound like you are inside a very long metal tube.

15:28:09 [Zakim]

-EnricoFranconi

15:28:53 [ericP]

agenda?

15:29:20 [kendallclark]

zakim, unmute me

15:29:20 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:29:20 [ericP]

zakim, take up agendum 4

15:29:21 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "issues#valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]

15:29:32 [kendallclark]

zakim, mute me

15:29:32 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:30:23 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#FunctionMapping

15:31:48 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#evaluation

15:31:55 [DanC]

"Casting in SPARQL is performed by calling a constructor function for the target type on an operand of the source type."

15:32:55 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#operandDataTypes

15:33:03 [DanC]

PROPOPSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.613 section 11 addresses issues#valueTesting

15:33:42 [DanC]

(looking for comments pending on this issue... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#valueTesting )

15:34:11 [DanC]

q+ to ask about Levering's question http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0011

15:34:19 [DanC]

ack danc

15:34:19 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to ask about Levering's question http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0011

15:35:18 [DanC]

PatH: note equivilence typo

15:35:25 [ericP]

DanC: can you address Ryan Levering'S comment?

15:35:50 [ericP]

EricP: yes, current text addresses them

15:35:53 [kendallclark]

zakim, unmute me

15:35:53 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:36:08 [DanC]

RESOLVED, UMD abstaining

15:36:18 [DanC]

RESOLVED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.613 section 11 addresses issues#valueTesting

15:36:38 [DanC]

Zakim, agenda?

15:36:38 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:

15:36:39 [Zakim]

4. issues#valueTesting [from DanC]

15:36:40 [Zakim]

5. Toward CR [from DanC]

15:36:41 [Zakim]

6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]

15:36:43 [Zakim]

7. ftf update [from DanC]

15:36:48 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 7

15:36:48 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "ftf update" taken up [from DanC]

15:37:29 [patH]

OK

15:37:33 [ericP]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/thread#msg151

15:37:46 [AndyS]

F2F: 2/3 March at Cannes (W3C all groups meetng)

15:38:17 [AndyS]

Agenda covers: LC issues + features to postpone + SPARQL v2

15:38:29 [DanC]

q+ to ask in stongest possible terms that we finish LC comments well before the TP

15:39:00 [AndyS]

Also meeting #SWIG (Thurs) and RIF (MoTu), SWBPD?

15:39:19 [AndyS]

SWBPD maybe Friday

15:39:22 [DanC]

ack danc

15:39:22 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to ask in stongest possible terms that we finish LC comments well before the TP

15:39:56 [AndyS]

DanC suggests strongly not having LC issues on agenda

15:40:36 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TP2006/ registration

15:40:38 [kendallclark]

I would love to come to Cannes again... but I didn't know we were meeting and I declined the trip when my boss asked. :)

15:40:41 [kendallclark]

oh well

15:40:59 [AndyS]

we conclude registration is open (for all meetings at AllGroups)

15:41:11 [DanC]

(to repeat: I'm more likely to be at the IG meeting than at DAWG)

15:41:14 [patH]

I very much doubt I will be able to make it, but could phone in to any discussions if its worth trying.

15:41:31 [kendallclark]

zakim, unmute me

15:41:31 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendallclark

15:41:32 [DanC]

Zakim, agenda?

15:41:32 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:

15:41:34 [Zakim]

4. issues#valueTesting [from DanC]

15:41:35 [Zakim]

5. Toward CR [from DanC]

15:41:37 [Zakim]

6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]

15:41:38 [Zakim]

7. ftf update [from DanC]

15:41:52 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 4

15:41:52 [Zakim]

agendum 4, issues#valueTesting, closed

15:41:53 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:41:54 [Zakim]

5. Toward CR [from DanC]

15:42:22 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 5

15:42:22 [Zakim]

agendum 5, Toward CR, closed

15:42:24 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:42:27 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:42:28 [Zakim]

6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]

15:42:31 [ericP]

ADJOURNED

15:42:33 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

15:42:37 [Zakim]

-EliasT

15:42:38 [Zakim]

-jeen

15:42:46 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:44:55 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:44:56 [AndyS]

AndyS has left #dawg

15:46:05 [Zakim]

-LeeF

15:46:06 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:46:10 [Zakim]

-Jos_De_Roo

15:46:26 [Zakim]

-EricP

15:46:37 [Zakim]

-Sven_Groppe

15:46:39 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended

15:46:40 [Zakim]

Attendees were Sven_Groppe, AndyS, jeen, EliasT, EricP, LeeF, Kendall_Clark, DanC, PatH, EnricoFranconi, Jos_De_Roo

15:47:07 [SvenGroppe]

SvenGroppe has left #dawg

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EliasT has joined #dawg

16:06:10 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #dawg

16:41:19 [EliasT]

RRSAgent, please stop