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14:58:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/10-swbp-irc
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14:58:42 <RalphS> zakim, this will be rdfxhtml
14:58:42 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
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15:00:04 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
15:00:11 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:02:26 <RalphS> Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF
15:02:30 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
15:03:27 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jan/0007.html
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15:03:58 <Zakim> +??P29
15:04:02 <MarkB> zakim, i am ?
15:04:02 <Zakim> +MarkB; got it
15:05:54 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:05:56 <Zakim> +DanBri
15:06:28 <Zakim> +??P3
15:06:36 <RalphS> zakim, ??p3 is Jeremy
15:06:36 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
15:06:38 <Steven> Steven has joined #swbp
15:07:52 <RalphS> Ralph: Pat Hayes' endorsement of CURIE was nice to see
15:08:05 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:08:05 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:08:07 <Zakim> +Steven
15:08:09 <RalphS> Jeremy: yes, QName dependence on URI rather than IRI is going to be an issue
15:08:36 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2006/01/10-swbp-irc#T15-08-09
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15:08:59 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2006Jan/0025.html Re: [ALL] RDF/A Primer for review [Pat Hayes\
15:09:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
15:10:55 <RalphS> Ralph: VM Task Force willing to swap times with us
15:10:56 <jeremy> (On URI/IRI issue:
15:10:58 <jeremy> http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-xml-names-19990114/
15:11:09 <RalphS> RESOLVED: TF time will move to 1400 UTC starting 24 Jan
15:11:26 <jeremy> An XML namespace is a collection of names, identified by a URI reference [RFC2396],
15:11:37 <RalphS> Topic: Making a Home for the RDF/A Syntax and CURIE Syntax documents
15:11:47 <jeremy> (not an IRI reference, or something that would encode as a URI ref)
15:11:57 <benadida> RalphS: unofficial yet, but intention is to ask for a 3-month extension to SWBPD to complete docs
15:12:25 <benadida> ... this task force likely will make a case to finish the RDF/A Primer document
15:12:42 <benadida> ... extension is a W3C management decision, not AC.
15:12:47 <benadida> ... shouldn't remove pressure on us though
15:13:33 <RalphS> Steven: first HTML WG telecon of 2006 is tomorrow
15:13:45 <RalphS> ... expect "heads-down" to get final edits done and Last Call published ASAP
15:14:56 <RalphS> Ben: where will the RDFA-syntax document material go?
15:15:08 <RalphS> Steven: expect to cite that document
15:15:29 <RalphS> Ralph: I was under the impression that the RDFA-syntax material would be merged into the XHTML document
15:15:41 <RalphS> Mark: yes, the content will go into the XHTML spec
15:16:25 <RalphS> ... this takes care of an initial concern that it was important to incorporate the material into the spec proper
15:16:47 <RalphS> Steven: the content will be part of the XHTML2 specification, yes
15:17:23 <RalphS> Ben: the previous XHTML WD had a much shorter version, which wasn't sufficient for an implementor; e.g. Jeremy
15:17:38 <RalphS> ... where will the extended prose that deals with the edge cases live?
15:18:56 <RalphS> Steven: with the XHTML2 spec we want to avoid what happened with the HTML 4 spec that a single document tried to address both implementors and authors
15:19:18 <RalphS> ... we hope to create a normative specification and a separate tutorial document
15:20:01 <RalphS> Ben: do we need to publish RDFA-syntax as a separate document?
15:23:28 <benadida> MarkB: if RDF/A normative is part of XHTML2, then why pull out the RDF/A material as a primer?
15:23:36 <benadida> Ralph: mostly for sharing the workload
15:24:58 <benadida> Ralph: having a standalone RDFA syntax document creates other worries
15:25:10 <benadida> ... pragmatically, we don't have sufficient resources to maintain 3 separate docs
15:25:27 <benadida> ... it would be easier to advance RDF/A as part of XHTML2 for now, split it out later
15:26:57 <RalphS> Mark: I've been thinking recently about an XHTML1 module
15:26:59 <Steven> q+
15:28:30 <benadida> Ralph: this TF should complete this design in the context of XHTML2, then once completed, extract it as a module
15:29:10 <benadida> ack Steven
15:29:14 <danbri2> q+ to speak in favour of this (an xhtml1 compat strategy)
15:29:35 <benadida> Ralph: worried about delaying this work too much by trying to generalize it
15:29:41 <RalphS> Steven: XHTML2 is in fact designed as a bunch of new modules
15:30:11 <RalphS> ... you can't do this in XHTML1 modularization because RDF/A uses features that are not in XHTML1 modularization
15:30:32 <RalphS> ... e.g. in XHTML1 modularization href is restricted to certain elements
15:30:48 <RalphS> ... so doing RDF/A in XHTML1 requires a revision of XHTML1 modularization
15:31:02 <RalphS> ... XHTML1 is itself a set of modules
15:31:18 <RalphS> ... the document of modularization for XHTMl1 is being worked on in the background
15:32:06 <RalphS> ... once the new version of modularization is published you would be able to use any module with any of the languages
15:32:32 <RalphS> ... but there are still restrictions on use with XHTML1 for such things as href and attribute name clashes
15:32:48 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to speak in favour of this (an xhtml1 compat strategy)
15:33:12 <RalphS> DanBri: I'd like a public statement of intent to make RDF/A usable with XHTML1
15:33:47 <RalphS> ... in hallway conversations people are support of RDF/A but don't want to wait for XHTML2 to be deployed
15:34:00 <RalphS> Steven: yes, but still needs a rev to XHTML1
15:34:04 <RalphS> Mark: even XHTML1.1?
15:34:12 <RalphS> Steven: yes, still need a rev even to XHTML1.1
15:34:41 <RalphS> DanBri: would the CDF Working Group be a possible deployment path?
15:35:03 <RalphS> Steven: still have to deal with the attribute clashes between XHTML 1.1 and RDF/A
15:35:17 <RalphS> ... all the attribute names used by RDF/A exist already in XHTML 1.1
15:35:27 <RalphS> ... certain elements would end up with two attributes of the same name
15:35:53 <RalphS> ... there is a common set of attributes that can exist everywhere plus element-specific attributes
15:36:03 <RalphS> ... so some elements would end up with two "href" attributes
15:36:16 <RalphS> Mark: we could recreate the anchor module to remove href
15:36:20 <RalphS> Steve: yes, exactly
15:36:49 <RalphS> Mark: in the 1.1 schemas I demonstrated to the Compound Document people a way to redefine the 'A' module to remove href
15:37:02 <RalphS> ... don't need to recreate the "A" module
15:37:17 <RalphS> Steven: not sure; I don't think redefinition allows you to remove an attribute from an element
15:37:56 <RalphS> Ben: are we in agreement that as a statement of principle we want RDF/A to be useful with XHTML1?
15:38:17 <RalphS> Steven: every group wants to add their one little thing to XHTML1
15:38:33 <RalphS> ... so we'd end up with 10 versions of XHTML1 rather than 1 language that has everything
15:38:49 <RalphS> ... this creates a divergence of markup languages in W3C
15:38:58 <jeremy> +1 to Steven
15:39:06 <RalphS> ... and doesn't solve the problem all at once as it ought to
15:39:54 <RalphS> Ben: in any case, making RDF/A work with XHTML1 is not going to happen in the remaining 2-3 months of this Task Force
15:40:03 <jeremy> q+
15:41:01 <MarkB> q+
15:41:08 <RalphS> Ralph: not sure I was comfortable with the blanket high-level statement as there is a lot of work necessary to make that happen, as Steven was pointing out
15:41:54 <RalphS> Jeremy: from the viewpoint of a SemWeb implementation of RDF/A I would expect, for example, that an implemenation like Jena would recognize XHTML documents containing RDF/A natively
15:42:37 <RalphS> ... and could be configured to recognize other documents that contain the RDF/A markup
15:43:27 <RalphS> ... in practice it's much more important to get the XHTML2 spec right than to worry about legacy documents
15:43:46 <RalphS> ... each community will deal separately with its user base
15:44:56 <danbri2> (oh sorry; didn't presume to add the rel thing to this meeting... but that we should get it back on agendas... hopefully be back in a few mins)
15:45:01 <Zakim> -DanBri
15:45:06 <RalphS> Mark: in the examples I sent to Ben, most used features that can be done now in XHTML
15:45:20 <RalphS> ... should we think about a two-step process
15:45:41 <RalphS> ... e.g. putting an email address into a page and using rel="foaf:mbox"
15:46:06 <RalphS> ... we could look at what is possible now and later add to the language
15:46:26 <RalphS> ... rel="foaf:mbox" is like what microformats are trying to do
15:46:38 <RalphS> ... but they have to import all the vocabularies
15:47:49 <RalphS> Ben: it's clear that RDF/A has to function well within XHTML2 first and foremost
15:48:01 <RalphS> ... so where is syntax specified for XHTML2?
15:48:08 <RalphS> Steven: the XHTML2 syntax is all in schemas
15:48:24 <RalphS> ... the specification does give the exact content model in each module
15:48:37 <RalphS> ... there is special notation that indicates when something affects other modules
15:48:46 <RalphS> ... so each chapter (module) describes its content model
15:49:01 <RalphS> ... and an appendix contains the whole schema
15:49:20 <RalphS> ... so there'd be a schema module for RDF/A
15:49:40 <RalphS> ... it may be two modules; one that includes href and another that has the rest
15:50:04 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed
15:50:25 <RalphS> Ben: considering what you expect to have in the XHTML2 spec plus the RDF/A primer, would there be anything missing for an implementor?
15:51:02 <RalphS> Steven: don't think so but an XHTML2 implementor might want more details on the mapping to RDF
15:51:26 <RalphS> Mark: will any of Jeremy's implemenation work contribute to test cases?
15:51:31 <RalphS> Jeremy: only a little.
15:51:52 <RalphS> ... the Jena implementation may have a test suite, though
15:52:19 <RalphS> ... but my goal is not the same level as represented by the RDF and OWL test cases
15:53:27 <RalphS> Ben: the hole in the specs seems to be in the mapping of RDF/A to RDF
15:53:36 <RalphS> Steven: I would hope that this is part of the XHTML2 document
15:53:57 <RalphS> ... in the minimal form necessary to make it correct and complete
15:54:24 <RalphS> Ben: this (terseness & correctness) is what the RDFA-syntax document was aiming to do
15:54:45 <RalphS> ... what more does this task force need to do to help the HTML WG?
15:55:01 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed
15:55:03 <RalphS> Steven: I think we have what we need; it's just the mechanics of editing
15:55:43 <Zakim> -Jeremy
15:55:57 <RalphS> Ben: I want to make sure that the RDFA-syntax document from which the XHTML editors will be pulling is up-to-date with all our recent decisions
15:56:45 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven inform the task force of a timeline for when a final RDFA-syntax document is needed by the XHTML2 editors
15:57:48 <Steven> Donr !
15:57:52 <Steven> Done!
15:58:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed
15:58:18 <RalphS> Ralph: I expect that very shortly our TF focus will switch from looking at RDFA-syntax to looking at XHTML2 editor's draft to be sure our decisions are recorded
15:58:20 <RalphS> Steven: yes
15:58:50 <Steven> s/Donr!//
15:59:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed
15:59:25 <Steven> 1 min 
15:59:37 <RalphS> Topic: RDF/A Primer
15:59:50 <danbri2> can we put link types draft on the agenda for a future call i'll take care to join?
16:00:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately
16:00:04 <Zakim> The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 27 ports must be freed
16:00:17 <RalphS> Ben: one option would be to freeze the current editor's draft as a first WG Note and consider adding examples in a future revision
16:00:55 <RalphS> Mark: I am very conscious of readers' initial impressions of a document
16:01:38 <RalphS> ... would not like the current editor's draft to remain as is for several months and be further cited
16:02:20 <RalphS> Ben: the Task Force needs to present a document to the SWBPD WG for review and publishing before the WG charter expires
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16:15:57 <RalphS> Ralph: the content of the CURIE specification document is to be merged into the XHTML2 document also, correct?
16:16:01 <RalphS> Steven: yes, that is our expectation
16:16:08 <Zakim> -Steven
16:16:10 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:16:12 <Zakim> -MarkB
16:16:14 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:16:15 <RalphS> [adjourned]
16:16:30 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
16:16:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, MarkB, Ralph, DanBri, Jeremy, Steven
16:16:38 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:16:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/10-swbp-minutes.html RalphS
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