IRC log of tagmem on 2005-12-13
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 18:00:07 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
- 18:00:07 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-tagmem-irc
- 18:00:19 [Zakim]
- TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
- 18:00:26 [Zakim]
- +Norm
- 18:01:06 [Zakim]
- +[IBMCambridge]
- 18:01:06 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 18:01:14 [noah]
- zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
- 18:01:14 [Zakim]
- +noah; got it
- 18:01:29 [Zakim]
- +Vincent
- 18:01:41 [noah]
- zakim, who is here?
- 18:01:41 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent
- 18:01:42 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, noah, Vincent, ht, Zakim, timbl, Norm, DanC
- 18:01:54 [DanC]
- Zakim, take up item 1
- 18:01:54 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Administrative: roll call, next teleconference, agenda review, review of recors" taken up [from DanC]
- 18:02:04 [ht]
- zakim, please call ht-781
- 18:02:04 [Zakim]
- ok, ht; the call is being made
- 18:02:05 [Zakim]
- +Ht
- 18:02:27 [DanC]
- Zakim, who's on the phone?
- 18:02:27 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent, Ht
- 18:04:55 [DanC]
- agenda + namespaceDocument-8 (maybe)
- 18:05:53 [DanC]
- Regrets: RF
- 18:06:12 [Zakim]
- +TimBL
- 18:06:40 [DanC]
- at risk: Ed (hardware foo)
- 18:06:51 [DanC]
- Scribe: DanC
- 18:06:57 [DanC]
- Chair: VQ
- 18:07:03 [DanC]
- PROPOSED: to meet next 20 Dec
- 18:07:20 [DanC]
- RESOLVED: to meet next 20 Dec; NDW to scribe
- 18:07:27 [noah]
- The 20th is OK for me.
- 18:07:42 [noah]
- I'm unavailable on the 27th
- 18:07:49 [DanC]
- PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Dec
- 18:07:58 [DanC]
- RESOLVED: to cancel 27 Dec 2005
- 18:08:33 [DanC]
- considering... meet 3 Jan 2006?
- 18:08:53 [noah]
- i think i'm OK on the 3rd.
- 18:09:06 [Zakim]
- +DOrchard
- 18:09:15 [DanC]
- 3 Dec looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec)
- 18:09:28 [dorchard]
- dorchard has joined #tagmem
- 18:09:43 [DanC]
- 3 Jan 2006 looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec)
- 18:10:05 [DanC]
- agenda?
- 18:10:50 [DanC]
- agenda -4
- 18:11:16 [DanC]
- namespaceDocument-8 for next week
- 18:12:00 [DanC]
- DC: remind me who has the ball on self-describing docs?
- 18:12:08 [DanC]
- NDW: HT and I. I have started something
- 18:12:43 [DanC]
- DC: note speech grammar spec has something relevant
- 18:14:04 [DanC]
- VQ: re ftf minutes... Ed offered to edit day 1, before his laptop went kerflewey...
- 18:14:33 [DanC]
- ... NM did part of day 2?
- 18:14:50 [DanC]
- NM: yes; I'd particularly like review of the web service example stuff, as I had to reconstruct it from memory
- 18:15:27 [DanC]
- TBL: yes, I'd like help with the Tue AM stuff, NM, thanks
- 18:15:58 [DanC]
- VQ: so can we approve next week?
- 18:16:06 [DanC]
- HT: I think so; I'm in a position to help Ed
- 18:16:19 [DanC]
- Zakim, next item
- 18:16:19 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Escaping the # mark in XQuery 1.0 and XPath 2.0 Functions and Operators" taken up [from DanC]
- 18:16:45 [DanC]
- VQ: see question from Ashok of XSL/XQuery and #...
- 18:16:50 [DanC]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Dec/0039.html FW: Escaping the # mark
- 18:17:26 [DanC]
- NDW: yes, I agree with Dan: the # should be escaped in encode-for-uri()
- 18:18:10 [DanC]
- NDW: I'm inclined to link dan's msg to the XQuery bug entry, which should move things along
- 18:18:40 [DanC]
- TBL: no argument the other way? no dissent?
- 18:18:45 [DanC]
- NDW: no, just a bug fix.
- 18:18:49 [DanC]
- Zakim, next item
- 18:18:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "issue NamespaceState-48" taken up [from DanC]
- 18:19:44 [DanC]
- NDW: I'm a little surprised that you approved before I finished my actions, HT, but I have since completed them.
- 18:19:57 [DanC]
- HT: I was mostly approving the good practice
- 18:20:01 [DanC]
- q+ to ask about nsuri
- 18:21:07 [DanC]
- NDW: recent changes are... * [missed] * things-change is the norm * [missed]
- 18:21:35 [dorchard]
- you can never enter the same river twice...
- 18:21:48 [Norm]
- "As a general rule, resources on the web can and do change. In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a namespace is immutable."
- 18:21:50 [DanC]
- [[ In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a namespace is immutable. ]]
- 18:22:51 [Vincent]
- ack DanC
- 18:22:52 [Zakim]
- DanC, you wanted to ask about nsuri
- 18:23:42 [ht]
- Suggest to replace "in the namespace" with "in the namespace named"
- 18:23:58 [Norm]
- Proposed: The proposed definition of a new local name “id” in the namespace identified identified by the namespace name “http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace” (the xml: namespace) raised a question about the identity of a namespace.
- 18:24:20 [Norm]
- Umh: The proposed definition of a new local name “id” in the namespace identified by the namespace name “http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace” (the xml: namespace) raised a question about the identity of a namespace.
- 18:26:16 [Norm]
- q+
- 18:26:58 [ht]
- q+ to discuss the 'abc' example
- 18:26:59 [timbl]
- xml:abc
- 18:27:08 [dorchard]
- q+ to discuss the abc example.
- 18:27:25 [Vincent]
- ack Norm
- 18:28:00 [DanC]
- [[Another perspective was that the xml: namespace consisted of all possible local names and that only a finite (but flexible) number of them are defined at any given point in time. ]]
- 18:29:01 [DanC]
- (scribe missed a bunch... sorry...)
- 18:29:18 [timbl]
- q+
- 18:29:31 [Vincent]
- ack ht
- 18:29:31 [Zakim]
- ht, you wanted to discuss the 'abc' example
- 18:29:33 [DanC]
- NM: I see 3 positions: (a) namespaces have finite numbers of name and are immutable (b) [missed] (c) [missed; darn]
- 18:29:39 [ht]
- HST would have preferred for the crucial sentence "Adding a defintiion for the local name "id" in the xml: namespace demonstrates . . ."
- 18:30:11 [noah]
- [missed] = there are a finite number now, but tomorrow I as NS owner may tell you that there are more
- 18:30:18 [DanC]
- DC: if namespace contain all the strings, then "Adding the local name “id” to the xml: namespace" is incoherent
- 18:30:26 [Norm]
- Much better, thank you ht
- 18:30:31 [DanC]
- yes, "adding a definition" is better.
- 18:31:28 [dorchard]
- q?
- 18:31:41 [ht]
- ack timbl
- 18:31:42 [DanC]
- TBL: doesn't appeal to me. People speak of adding things to namespaces, and let's not say otherwise
- 18:32:25 [noah]
- I think I'm hearing Tim take my position (b); the members of the namespace are at a given time only those that have been defined, but the set can change over time
- 18:32:40 [DanC]
- ... let's say "N is in ns I iff the owner of I has given N a definition"
- 18:32:41 [timbl]
- It isn
- 18:32:56 [noah]
- Dan: that sounds right to me, or certainly very close
- 18:33:26 [Vincent]
- ack dorchard
- 18:33:26 [Zakim]
- dorchard, you wanted to discuss the abc example.
- 18:33:54 [DanC]
- (I don't care a whole lot which terminology we pick, but please let's pick.)
- 18:34:41 [DanC]
- DO: this seems pretty abstract. Software doesn't change when these changes happen. [disagree!]
- 18:35:02 [timbl]
- A namespace is a set of terms and their definitions.
- 18:35:02 [DanC]
- DO: I can see either way...
- 18:35:39 [DanC]
- NDW: speaking of definitions seems best...
- 18:35:58 [noah]
- q= to talk about definitions
- 18:36:04 [noah]
- q= to talk about definitions
- 18:36:13 [noah]
- q+ to talk about definitions
- 18:36:15 [dorchard]
- DO: this seems pretty abstract. If we pick the "add a definition to namespace" versus "add a name + definition to namespace", no software changes because of which option we pick.
- 18:36:23 [DanC]
- DC: how about a gloss? ala: "people speaking of adding a name to a namespace; we prefer to speak of adding definitions..."
- 18:36:44 [noah]
- q?
- 18:37:10 [DanC]
- TBL: that's pushing water up-hill. It seems to me that a namespace is like a python dictionary: it's a mapping of terms to meanings/definitions/values
- 18:37:14 [timbl]
- for term in { "sdf": gfooo, "sdf": bar }
- 18:37:47 [timbl]
- q?
- 18:37:51 [Vincent]
- ack noah
- 18:37:52 [Zakim]
- noah, you wanted to talk about definitions
- 18:38:00 [DanC]
- NDW: I think I can find a middle-ground, offline
- 18:38:41 [DanC]
- NM: umm... "define"... that's one thing that we do, but take the example of a C program...
- 18:39:17 [timbl]
- Nooah is very right here ... you can define a namespace as an infinite set
- 18:39:24 [DanC]
- NM: perhaps "license certain uses" is more general than define
- 18:39:34 [Vincent]
- ack DanC
- 18:39:34 [Zakim]
- DanC, you wanted to noodle about "encourage use"; yeah...
- 18:39:34 [timbl]
- ... can be a function rather than a dictionary in python terms.
- 18:39:40 [timbl]
- +1
- 18:40:46 [DanC]
- some examples: all the prime numbers, all the lat/longs, all the HTML terms with _ appended
- 18:41:14 [timbl]
- the sort of namespace any self-respectig self-describing programmer would declare twice before breakfast.
- 18:41:29 [noah]
- My C language example was: let's make sure we don't have to individually define the terms in a NS. e.g. I could say my NS has in it all possible identifiers in any C program you can write.
- 18:41:30 [DanC]
- ACTION NDW: revise namespaceState.html w.r.t. "in a namespace" and "define"
- 18:41:41 [noah]
- I believe Tim's functional approach is a more formal way of getting at the same thing.
- 18:42:01 [DanC]
- Zakim, next item
- 18:42:01 [Zakim]
- I do not see any non-closed agenda items, DanC
- 18:42:16 [DanC]
- Topic: Update on some issues
- 18:42:23 [DanC]
- VQ: we didn't get to this at the ftf...
- 18:43:21 [DanC]
- Topic: IRIEverywhere-27 status check
- 18:44:25 [DanC]
- DC: I don't want to change its priority; I don't mind if we make progress on it, but I don't want it to preempt self-describing documents, versioning, etc.
- 18:45:06 [DanC]
- HT: meanwhile, Bjoern seems to have made some very detailed points. We'll need a "microscope" when we get to this
- 18:45:17 [noah]
- zakim, who is here?
- 18:45:17 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent, Ht, TimBL, DOrchard
- 18:45:18 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see dorchard, RRSAgent, noah, Vincent, ht, Zakim, timbl, Norm, DanC
- 18:45:20 [DanC]
- Topic: metadataInURI-31 status check
- 18:45:38 [DanC]
- VQ: from Sep, action was on Roy and Noah...
- 18:46:21 [DanC]
- Noah: much of what I said in Sep was "most of this was before my time" but somehow I ended up with the action
- 18:47:05 [DanC]
- NM: I'm more swapped in on principle-of-least-power
- 18:48:01 [DanC]
- NM: I'd need help from Roy... VQ: he's only around for another month...
- 18:48:32 [ht]
- q+
- 18:48:40 [DanC]
- ack ht
- 18:48:43 [Vincent]
- ack ht
- 18:48:59 [noah]
- Noah feels he doesn't have the context on all the work that happened on this before he joined the TAG.
- 18:49:01 [DanC]
- HT: this issue has come up in xml-dev recently, indirectly...
- 18:49:17 [noah]
- Maybe or maybe not I'm the right person to carry this forward, by myself or with help.
- 18:49:33 [DanC]
- ... somebody asked: is foo/bar any different from ?x=foo;y=bar , and various people said yes/no/maybe...
- 18:49:36 [noah]
- At the very least, I'd appreciate email reminding me of what the progress to date has been and what remains to be done.
- 18:49:55 [timbl]
- q+
- 18:49:58 [DanC]
- ... meanwhile, we have the case of the guy who got arrested for typing ../../ into his browser... does the use of foo/bar imply something about ../../ ?
- 18:50:16 [DanC]
- ... seems to raise some questions about opacity
- 18:50:36 [DanC]
- (Jim Gettys wrote some good stuff on this... on relative URI refs; I think it got stored in /DesignIssues/ )
- 18:50:46 [timbl]
- 1. The existence of something with URI /a/b/c/d does not give you licence to conclude ANYTHING.
- 18:51:00 [Vincent]
- ack timbl
- 18:51:03 [DanC]
- ... and there's this stuff with checksums in URIs, which seems to be a counter-point to [?]
- 18:51:42 [DanC]
- TBL: The existence of something with URI /a/b/c/d does not give you licence to conclude ANYTHING.
- 18:51:47 [DanC]
- HT: ppl seem to believe otherwise
- 18:52:18 [timbl]
- 2. He didn't get arrested for making a valid URI, he got arrested for doing something like
- 18:52:23 [DanC]
- TBL: he didn't get arrested for just ../../ , but for using too many ..'s; that make an illegal URI
- 18:52:33 [timbl]
- GET /a/.../.../../..
- 18:52:44 [timbl]
- GET /a/.../.../../../etc/passwd
- 18:53:10 [ht]
- zakim, please call ht-781
- 18:53:10 [Zakim]
- ok, ht; the call is being made
- 18:53:29 [Zakim]
- -Ht
- 18:53:32 [ht]
- zakim, disconnect ht
- 18:53:32 [Zakim]
- sorry, ht, I do not see a party named 'ht'
- 18:53:42 [ht]
- zakim, please call ht-781
- 18:53:42 [Zakim]
- ok, ht; the call is being made
- 18:53:44 [Zakim]
- +Ht
- 18:53:44 [DanC]
- Topic: Issue RDFinXHTML-35 status check
- 18:54:06 [DanC]
- VQ: I don't know anything about this one at all
- 18:54:37 [DanC]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/specbg.html Storing Data in Documents: The Design History and Rationale for GRDDL
- 18:55:07 [ht]
- http://www.cdlib.org/inside/diglib/ark/arkcdl.pdf is an interesting and well-thought-out design for a class of URIs which include checksums in the URI. . .
- 18:55:33 [ht]
- ref. metadataInURI-31
- 18:56:01 [DanC]
- DC: remains in my someday pile
- 18:56:21 [DanC]
- Topic: Issue siteData-36 status check
- 18:57:29 [DanC]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/830178CE7378FC40BC6F1DDADCFDD1D104D0CCA3@RED-MSG-31.redmond.corp.microsoft.com;list=www-tag google sitemaps and some history of sitemaps [siteData-36] Jun 2005
- 18:57:48 [DanC]
- rather... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Jun/0011
- 18:58:44 [timbl]
- ls-LR
- 18:59:49 [noah]
- Dan says: "wonder whether Google considered using RDF for site maps". Now that we have GRDDL, might it be better to make the goal be: whatever format you choose should yield truly useful RDF when GRDDL'd.
- 19:00:09 [timbl]
- You can submit a Sitemap to Google in a number of formats:
- 19:00:19 [DanC]
- TimBL: remember ls-LR? you put it at the top of your ftp site if you didn't want archie to crawl it, and it made things faster
- 19:00:28 [timbl]
- Sitemap protocol, OAI-PMH, RSS, text
- 19:01:07 [DanC]
- VQ: so it remains in the someday pile...
- 19:01:32 [DanC]
- Topic: Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check
- 19:01:43 [DanC]
- VQ: anything new since Sep/EDI?
- 19:03:51 [timbl]
- Link rel=icon in Mozilla
- 19:04:03 [timbl]
- Possibel design Link rel=meta foo.rdf
- 19:04:05 [DanC]
- (back to siteData for a bit)
- 19:04:33 [timbl]
- Link rel=sitedata /data.rdf
- 19:05:14 [DanC]
- TBL seems to lament that nobody's working on siteData; DC suggest TBL wish into a blog
- 19:05:49 [DanC]
- Topic: Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check
- 19:07:25 [DanC]
- DC: seems nearby to self-describing documents, and to abstractcompnentrefs; where is component designators, these days?
- 19:07:41 [DanC]
- HT: component designators is not a top priority in the WG these days
- 19:07:48 [DanC]
- "Last Call Ends 26 April 2005"
- 19:07:58 [DanC]
- -- http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xmlschema-ref-20050329/
- 19:08:18 [DanC]
- HT: yes, DC's comments are still outstanding
- 19:09:08 [DanC]
- Topic: Issue URIGoodPractice-40 status check
- 19:09:41 [DanC]
- VQ: any news since Feb?
- 19:10:22 [DanC]
- NM: RF was going to contact DO a while ago... did that happen?
- 19:10:24 [DanC]
- DO: no
- 19:12:15 [DanC]
- DC: this came up in WSDL recently; I dissented to the WSDL design that implies that the SPARQL interface URI ends in )
- 19:13:32 [DanC]
- TBL: yes, the WSDL WG saw the desire to use foo#bar as just an RDF thing...
- 19:14:02 [DanC]
- ... and without, e.g. a TAG decision, there isn't anything that says flat namespaces and foo#bar is a good thing
- 19:14:54 [DanC]
- TBL: I get the impression that the WSDL WG didn't mind the long URIs because they don't really use the URIs; they identify things in context using other syntaxes
- 19:15:13 [DanC]
- ... maybe we should say "give things URIs, and use it!"
- 19:16:29 [DanC]
- DO: we were asked to make URIs for all these things, and we followed all the constraints that are established
- 19:16:49 [DanC]
- s/we/the WSDL WG/
- 19:17:50 [noah]
- q+ to say that you can't always expect people to use URI's internally
- 19:18:41 [noah]
- q?
- 19:18:50 [Vincent]
- ack noah
- 19:18:50 [Zakim]
- noah, you wanted to say that you can't always expect people to use URI's internally
- 19:18:58 [ht]
- q+ to draw the XML Schema ||
- 19:19:13 [DanC]
- (the topic is more like: URIGoodPractice-40 and WSDL )
- 19:21:18 [Vincent]
- ack ht
- 19:21:18 [Zakim]
- ht, you wanted to draw the XML Schema ||
- 19:21:47 [DanC]
- DO: the flat namespace option was one of the options brought to the TAG ages ago, and the TAG said the () design is fine
- 19:21:52 [timbl]
- q+
- 19:21:57 [DanC]
- TBL: really? I guess we blew it
- 19:22:51 [DanC]
- HT: in RDF, there's one big domain, so it's natural to have one flat namespace. In other domains, there's no basis for saying "you must use a flat namespace" because their space isn't flat
- 19:23:18 [noah]
- Henry repeats my example of elements and attributes in XML, which in turn leads to symbol spaces in schema.
- 19:23:57 [noah]
- I think that many programming languages have parallels: for example, in Java, we do not insist that class names and member names be distinct
- 19:24:03 [Vincent]
- ack timbl
- 19:24:12 [DanC]
- TBL: the RDF space isn't flat either; there's all sorts of structure to the classes in RDF, but RDF accepts the flat namespace constraint
- 19:24:21 [ht]
- q+ to note that Python has a package system!
- 19:25:02 [DanC]
- (XML and python are both in the web. and URIs have all sorts of hierarchy like python's package systems)
- 19:25:19 [ht]
- q-
- 19:25:29 [ht]
- q+ to say Noah and I said XML, not XML Schema!
- 19:25:35 [Vincent]
- ack ht
- 19:25:35 [Zakim]
- ht, you wanted to say Noah and I said XML, not XML Schema!
- 19:26:04 [DanC]
- TBL: the multiple-symbols-space aspect of the XML Schema design is really sub-optimal
- 19:26:25 [DanC]
- yes, that was a bug.
- 19:26:48 [ht]
- The _only_ think we ever discussed was saying you couldn't name a type with the same name as an element
- 19:27:04 [ht]
- We _never_ considered not allowing you to name elements and attributes with the same local name
- 19:27:54 [DanC]
- right, but we discussed schema languages that just had one flat namespace per schema; if you wanted a element and attribute with the same name, only one of them would get a #foo name
- 19:27:57 [ht]
- q+ to agree with Tim about the origin of all this
- 19:28:29 [Vincent]
- ack ht
- 19:28:29 [Zakim]
- ht, you wanted to agree with Tim about the origin of all this
- 19:29:05 [DanC]
- HT: yes, it's the contextualized names/references that is the root of this stuff
- 19:30:09 [DanC]
- VQ: lacking near-term actions...
- 19:30:54 [DanC]
- HT: I'm very interested in this design space, and I intend to write, in some context, something on the value of multiple symbol spaces
- 19:31:26 [DanC]
- (tim, I think the issues are only connected if you take the "flat namespaces are good" position)
- 19:31:33 [DanC]
- (Which I do)
- 19:31:44 [Zakim]
- -DOrchard
- 19:31:45 [DanC]
- ADJOURN.
- 19:31:49 [Zakim]
- -noah
- 19:31:51 [Zakim]
- -Ht
- 19:31:51 [Zakim]
- -Vincent
- 19:31:52 [Zakim]
- -Norm
- 19:31:57 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 19:32:00 [Zakim]
- -TimBL
- 19:32:01 [Zakim]
- TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
- 19:32:02 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Norm, DanC, noah, Vincent, Ht, TimBL, DOrchard
- 20:58:44 [Norm]
- Norm has joined #tagmem
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- Zakim has left #tagmem