IRC log of eo on 2005-12-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:23:45 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/09-eo-irc
13:23:54 [Zakim]
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13:24:04 [Justin]
zakim, this will be eowg
13:24:04 [Zakim]
ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:24:37 [Justin]
Meeting: EOWG
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Chair: Judy
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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0110.html
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WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
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+Doyle_Saylor
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+Shadi
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+Justin_Thorp
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+Jack
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+Bingham
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+Judy
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+Henk
13:31:34 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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+George_Heake
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+??P8
13:32:13 [pasquale]
zakim, ??p8 is pasquale
13:32:13 [Zakim]
+pasquale; got it
13:33:14 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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+??P9
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zakim, please mute me
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zakim, ??P9 is Tanguy
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+Tanguy; got it
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13:33:45 [Justin]
Scribe: Justin
13:34:35 [Harvey]
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13:35:00 [shadi_]
zakim, mute shadi
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Shadi should now be muted
13:35:31 [Harvey]
Harvey hasn't had time to give feedback on other group's work.
13:36:27 [Justin]
Judy: It is one of EO's responsibilities to look at the education and outreach aspect of the guidelines.
13:37:36 [Justin]
Judy: I want to wrap up our comments by next week.
13:37:43 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
13:37:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Shadi (muted), Justin_Thorp (muted), Jack, Bingham, Judy, Henk, George_Heake, pasquale, Tanguy (muted)
13:37:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Harvey, shadi, Jack, Judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, pasquale, Andrew-regrets
13:38:02 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted
13:38:18 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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13:38:57 [Justin]
Topic: Outreach Updates
13:39:01 [Justin]
Group: None
13:40:12 [Justin]
Topic: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 Draft
13:40:22 [Justin]
the draft - http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/
13:41:52 [Justin]
i looked at it as well
13:42:11 [Justin]
Judy: General Impressions?
13:42:27 [Justin]
Doyle: seems a little bit cleaner and a little easier to consume
13:42:42 [Justin]
Judy: Last time looked at it?
13:42:57 [Justin]
Doyle: Last time we did it in EO
13:43:20 [Justin]
George: More concise and easier to read and more acceptable to a wider audience
13:44:57 [Justin]
Judy: Understanding Doc reaction?
13:45:56 [Justin]
Henk: i didn't have a chance to read everything but I what I read I thought if I wasn't familiar with it, I wouldn't know what I was reading
13:46:23 [Justin]
1.1.1 For non-text content that is used to convey information, text alternatives identify the non-text content and convey the same information. For multimedia, provide a text-alternative that identifies the multimedia. For live audio-only and live video-only, conform to success criterion 1.1.5. (Level 1)
13:47:44 [Justin]
Judy: In past we sent a ton of comments
13:47:56 [Justin]
Judy: Seems like they have addressed most of them.
13:48:42 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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zakim, please mute me
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13:49:35 [Judy]
Here's the WD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/
13:49:58 [Judy]
Here were our previous EOWG comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2005Jun/0003
13:50:15 [shadi]
zakim, unmute shadi
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Shadi should no longer be muted
13:50:20 [Justin]
Judy: Let's read the abstract
13:52:06 [Justin]
Judy: when you read the abstract, can you tell whats the business end of the guidelines, what's the part to which you conform?
13:53:10 [Justin]
Harvey: Conformance isn't mentioned.
13:53:22 [Justin]
Judy: I think they are trying to do it in the second paragraph.
13:54:25 [Judy]
What about: "The success criteria are the part one has to conform to, to meet the guidelines."
13:54:27 [Justin]
Judy: I think they should in more plain language say the success criteria are what you have to be following
13:54:45 [Justin]
yes
13:55:20 [Justin]
Jack: No link between conformance and success criteria
13:56:41 [Justin]
Judy: Status Section
13:58:23 [Justin]
Judy: The status section changes with each draft
13:58:33 [Justin]
Jack: Seemed very boilerplate
13:58:42 [Justin]
Zakim, please unmute me
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13:59:32 [Justin]
Justin: What are we supposed to see in the status?
13:59:39 [Justin]
Judy: I had a navigational issue.
13:59:45 [Zakim]
-Doyle_Saylor
14:00:36 [Justin]
Henk: There is also a request for comments.
14:00:56 [Justin]
Henk: in the status section. Should it be in this section?
14:01:26 [Justin]
Judy: This is usually where we put this.
14:02:33 [Justin]
Justin: I can't even find easily what the status of the document.
14:03:18 [Justin]
Henk: First reaction was how now can I continue.
14:03:32 [Justin]
Henk: Next would help.
14:04:17 [Justin]
Judy: Someone has to know the terrain in order to use the document.
14:05:16 [Justin]
Justin: I had some general navigational and interaction issues.
14:05:22 [Justin]
Judy: The Introduction
14:05:29 [Judy]
jb clarification: But people shouldn't have to know it all in advance...
14:05:47 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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14:11:19 [Justin]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/intro.html
14:14:16 [Justin]
Judy: What are people's comments?
14:14:36 [Justin]
Harvey: "User interface components in the content must be operable by each user." ?
14:15:09 [Justin]
Judy: More friendly, like can be operated by each user?
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14:16:01 [Justin]
Henk: Isn't operable understandable?
14:16:35 [Harvey]
Operability seems to be Jargon
14:16:47 [Justin]
George: Fairly...generic and fairly standard
14:17:17 [Justin]
Judy: Seems this intro is much much clearer
14:17:50 [Harvey]
2. Each interface component must be easily controlled by the user.
14:18:45 [Justin]
Judy: doesn't cover standard usability recommendations
14:20:06 [Jack]
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14:20:28 [Justin]
Judy: where they say WCAG 2.0 includes....should that be highlighted as different, because of it's unique role in the document.
14:21:23 [Justin]
Henk: I think not.
14:22:48 [Justin]
Judy: "Only this document is normative" ??
14:23:12 [Justin]
Harvey: Glossary link for normative.
14:23:41 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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14:24:31 [Justin]
Justin: Where is the checklist? It's not in the intro.
14:24:41 [Harvey]
There is no mention of "checklist" in this document
14:24:57 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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14:25:33 [Harvey]
Checklist is not in the glossary either
14:27:21 [Justin]
Harvey: It needs clarification.
14:27:39 [Justin]
Harvey: Normative has a formal definition which people need to know about.
14:28:07 [Justin]
Harvey: It has a standard meeting.
14:28:16 [Justin]
Henk: Do we need to explain it here?
14:28:32 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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14:29:28 [Justin]
Judy: In the glossary it is required for conformance.
14:30:04 [Harvey]
The normative requirements show up in the guidelines:
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14:30:15 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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14:30:25 [Judy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2005Jun/0003
14:31:40 [Justin]
Judy: When you add a glossary link, it adds a emphasis that this is important to pay attention to.
14:32:56 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted
14:34:55 [Justin]
Justin: in related docs, there are two docs that are from WAI site that look different, they have a different user experience
14:37:22 [Justin]
Harvey: Put it on an indirect document.
14:37:37 [Justin]
Justin: Would that give it a layer of removal?
14:37:46 [Justin]
Judy: Maybe say apart from the guidelines
14:38:42 [Justin]
Henk: more distinction would help
14:40:24 [Justin]
Henk: I don't think the first two links should be bold.
14:40:32 [Justin]
Judy: I think that would help me
14:41:00 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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Justin_Thorp should now be muted
14:42:10 [Justin]
Judy: how is this procedure for comments going?
14:42:22 [Justin]
George: This is giving us some good bullet points
14:42:33 [Justin]
Henk: I think this helps us know where to read for next week.
14:43:05 [Justin]
Judy: Conformance Section
14:46:04 [Justin]
Judy: they have changed this a lot.
14:46:28 [Justin]
Jack: As a new person, I would say what does this mean?
14:48:21 [Justin]
Pasquale: There are some guidelines that have no level 3 success criteria.
14:49:46 [Justin]
Henk: Some guidelines don't contain all success criterion levels
14:50:16 [Justin]
judy: each level...every level
14:52:11 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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14:52:21 [Justin]
judy: for who is this very clear?
14:53:05 [Justin]
Henk: For a new reader user, of course it is hard...you will understand it don't the round.
14:53:15 [Justin]
s/round/way
14:53:27 [Justin]
Henk: I don't see how to make it easier simpler.
14:53:35 [Justin]
Harvey: I think it is a good start.
14:53:47 [Harvey]
I think this is an effective introduction
14:55:57 [Justin]
Judy: A lot of the comments are that is has improved.
14:56:06 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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Justin_Thorp should now be muted
14:57:24 [Justin]
Judy: A lot of people aren't familiar with a conformance sections.
14:57:41 [Justin]
Judy: This is not the same as regular intro material.
14:58:42 [Harvey]
Informative documents: As these are often augmented, I suggest a minimal summary here, and a link to where they are found.
14:58:54 [Justin]
Judy: Maybe this needs to be in a different section, why conformance is important and why it is complex
14:59:14 [Justin]
Judy: After intro, put the more complex stuff in
14:59:29 [Justin]
yes that made sense
15:00:10 [Justin]
Henk: I think a new section on conformance would be great.
15:01:00 [Justin]
George: I think this would be a great idea.
15:01:54 [Zakim]
-pasquale
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+??P24
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zakim, ??P24 is Pasquale
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+Pasquale; got it
15:04:56 [Harvey]
Judy: "she comes, she goes!"
15:05:50 [Justin]
Judy: Conformance requirements seems a little barried.
15:07:12 [Justin]
Judy: In the past we had commented on this?
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s/?/
15:09:00 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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15:10:55 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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15:11:36 [Justin]
Justin: In conformance claims, delivery units doesn't make sense.
15:11:39 [Justin]
Judy: I agree
15:12:35 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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15:13:12 [Justin]
Judy: The Guidelines
15:14:10 [Justin]
Judy: Is the navigation better? apparently not...
15:15:04 [Justin]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/guidelines.html
15:15:22 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted
15:16:40 [Justin]
Justin: You don't know if your going to individual pages or if your going to one long thing with an anchor.
15:17:09 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
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Justin_Thorp should now be muted
15:17:42 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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15:20:46 [Justin]
4.1 is very confusing
15:21:03 [Justin]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/guidelines.html#use-spec
15:23:35 [Justin]
Justin: There is a history with this checkpoint
15:24:51 [Justin]
s/Justin/Judy
15:25:24 [Justin]
Judy: The How to Meet for 4.1.1 is confusing.
15:26:47 [Justin]
Judy: Glossary Section
15:27:50 [Justin]
Judy: We have our own glossary that we are working on. We should take a good look at the glossary.
15:28:12 [pasquale]
me too
15:28:13 [Justin]
Judy: Henk, can you take a good look at collisions with our glossary
15:28:17 [Justin]
Henk: Yes
15:28:59 [Harvey]
I've minimal time to do any more in the next few weeks.
15:29:16 [Zakim]
-Tanguy
15:29:18 [Zakim]
-Bingham
15:29:18 [Zakim]
-George_Heake
15:29:19 [Zakim]
-Shadi
15:29:20 [Zakim]
-Jack
15:29:26 [Zakim]
-Pasquale
15:29:27 [Zakim]
-Justin_Thorp
15:29:34 [Zakim]
-Judy
15:29:54 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
15:30:04 [Zakim]
-Henk
15:30:05 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:30:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Jack, Bingham, Judy, Henk, George_Heake, pasquale, Tanguy
15:30:10 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/09-eo-minutes.html shadi
15:31:39 [pasquale]
bye shadi and justin, have a good week end ;-)
15:31:54 [Justin]
you too pasquale
15:43:31 [Justin]
rrsagent, make logs world
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