20:43:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-addr
20:43:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/28-ws-addr-irc
20:43:36 <mnot> zakim, this will be wsaddr
20:43:36 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, mnot
20:43:43 <mnot> zakim, this will be ws_addr
20:43:43 <Zakim> ok, mnot; I see WS_AddrWG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
20:43:53 <mnot> Meeting: Web Services Addressing Working Group Teleconference
20:43:57 <mnot> Chair: Mark Nottingham
20:44:06 <mnot> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/8D0E6B47-E8E6-41F4-87A9-D694FF2C124D@bea.com
20:50:20 <DavidIllsley> DavidIllsley has joined #ws-addr
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20:55:37 <Zakim> WS_AddrWG()4:00PM has now started
20:55:44 <Zakim> + +1.831.332.aaaa
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20:55:55 <Zakim> +David_Illsley
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20:59:04 <Nilo> Nilo has joined #ws-addr
20:59:20 <dhull> dhull has joined #ws-addr
20:59:35 <Zakim> +Mark_Peel/Katy_Warr
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20:59:54 <Zakim> +Paul_Knight
20:59:59 <swinkler> swinkler has joined #ws-addr
21:00:10 <Zakim> +Bob_Freund
21:00:19 <Zakim> -Paul_Knight
21:00:20 <Zakim> +Vikas_Deolaliker
21:00:36 <Zakim> +Steve
21:00:39 <PaulKnight> PaulKnight has joined #ws-addr
21:00:51 <Zakim> +MarkN
21:00:56 <bob> bob has joined #ws-addr
21:00:58 <Zakim> +??P7
21:01:01 <swinkler> Zakim, Steve is me
21:01:01 <Zakim> +swinkler; got it
21:01:04 <Zakim> +Dave_Chappell
21:01:06 <Zakim> +Dave_Hull
21:01:08 <Zakim> +Nilo_Mitra
21:01:17 <vikas> vikas has joined #ws-addr
21:01:18 <TonyR> zakim, ??p7 is me
21:01:18 <Zakim> +TonyR; got it
21:01:30 <Zakim> +Tom_Rutt
21:01:32 <Zakim> +Steve_Vinoski
21:01:51 <swinkler> yes
21:01:52 <yinleng> yinleng has joined #ws-addr
21:02:02 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Marsh
21:02:20 <Zakim> + +1.441.132.aabb
21:02:27 <uyalcina> uyalcina has joined #ws-addr
21:02:45 <Zakim> +Paul_Knight
21:02:52 <Zakim> +Prasad_Yendluri
21:02:53 <marc> marc has joined #ws-addr
21:03:08 <Zakim> +Umit_Yalcinalp
21:03:43 <TRutt> TRutt has joined #ws-addr
21:03:49 <Zakim> +Andreas_Bjarlestam
21:03:53 <marc> zakim, who is on the phone
21:03:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', marc
21:04:06 <marc> zakim, who is here
21:04:06 <Zakim> marc, you need to end that query with '?'
21:04:13 <marc> zakim, who is here ?
21:04:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.831.332.aaaa, David_Illsley (muted), Mark_Peel/Katy_Warr, Bob_Freund, Vikas_Deolaliker, swinkler, MarkN, TonyR, Dave_Chappell, Dave_Hull, Nilo_Mitra,
21:04:16 <Zakim> ... Steve_Vinoski, Tom_Rutt, Jonathan_Marsh, +1.441.132.aabb, Paul_Knight, Prasad_Yendluri, Umit_Yalcinalp, Andreas_Bjarlestam (muted)
21:04:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see TRutt, marc, uyalcina, yinleng, vikas, bob, PaulKnight, swinkler, pauld, dhull, Nilo, Katy, gpilz, prasad, TonyR, David_Illsley, RRSAgent, Zakim, mnot, Jonathan_Marsh,
21:04:23 <Zakim> ... hugo
21:04:24 <Zakim> +Mark_Little
21:04:29 <pauld> zakim, why won't you answer the phone, old fruit?
21:04:29 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pauld.
21:04:32 <Zakim> +??P19
21:04:51 <Zakim> +pauld
21:04:54 <marc> zakim, +1.441.132.aabb is me
21:04:54 <Zakim> +marc; got it
21:04:57 <vinoski> vinoski has joined #ws-addr
21:05:16 <gpilz> zakim, +1.831.332.aaaa is me
21:05:16 <Zakim> +gpilz; got it
21:05:18 <Zakim> -??P19
21:05:25 <vinoski> vinoski has joined #ws-addr
21:05:53 <Zakim> +[IBM]
21:05:55 <pauld> pauld has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2005Nov/0083.html
21:06:03 <Paco> Paco has joined #ws-addr
21:06:58 <Zakim> +??P22
21:06:58 <anish> anish has joined #ws-addr
21:07:27 <Zakim> +Anish
21:08:01 <yinleng> zakim, ??P22 is me
21:08:01 <Zakim> +yinleng; got it
21:08:10 <PaulKnight> scribe: PaulKnight
21:08:12 <Zakim> +Dave_Orchard
21:09:17 <PaulKnight> any corrections to minutes?
21:09:29 <Jonathan_Marsh> zakim, who's making noise?
21:09:40 <Zakim> Jonathan_Marsh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MarkN (20%), swinkler (4%), Andreas_Bjarlestam (79%)
21:10:06 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:10:59 <PaulKnight> face-to-face minutes accepted
21:11:01 <PaulKnight> wait unitl next week to approve last week's meeting minutes
21:11:11 <PaulKnight> s/unitl/until
21:12:37 <PaulKnight> Agenda Item 4 covered - action item review
21:12:46 <PaulKnight> now on agenda item 5
21:13:05 <Zakim> -Prasad_Yendluri
21:13:06 <Zakim> +Prasad_Yendluri
21:14:04 <PaulKnight> suggestion to defer cr10 due to W3C representatives not being present
21:17:52 <PaulKnight> discussion of  "on the web" definition - 
21:19:11 <dhull> +1
21:19:23 <dhull> (to marsh)
21:19:48 <PaulKnight> Mark N: need to defer this discussion until W3C reps are here
21:20:36 <PaulKnight> Mark N: let's be prepared to make a decision next week, continue on email discussion
21:20:48 <PaulKnight> Agenda item 6
21:21:11 <PaulKnight> TOPIC: Agenda item 6
21:21:39 <PaulKnight> WD Issues <http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/addr/wd-issues/>
21:22:49 <PaulKnight> Umit:  describing her proposal 1
21:23:06 <PaulKnight> Proposal 1: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2005Oct/att-0116/ProposalTake3.htm>
21:23:53 <PaulKnight> Proposal 2: <http://www.w3.org/mid/D1503191-88CA-4537-A20A-1F891F43606D@Sun.COM>
21:24:23 <Zakim> -MarkN
21:26:05 <Zakim> +MarkN
21:27:20 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: wsaw:Async element may have three distinct values, “full”, “never” and “always”.  Discussing behavior of end point with each value.
21:28:14 <dorchard> dorchard has joined #ws-addr
21:28:57 <PaulKnight> anish: question - anonymousUse Element at binding level?
21:29:21 <PaulKnight> Umit: no, at child level
21:29:36 <dorchard> q+ to ask about problems of attribute extension
21:30:19 <marc> q+ to ask about HTTP 202 stuff in WSDL binding doc
21:30:45 <PaulKnight> anish: must set non-anonymous EPR? (if using addressing)
21:31:15 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: yes, does this need to be changed?
21:31:20 <dhull> q+ to propose separating markup issues from semantics
21:32:35 <PaulKnight> anish: WSDLRequired set to true in this case?  
21:32:49 <mnot> ack dorch
21:32:49 <Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to ask about problems of attribute extension
21:33:10 <PaulKnight> dorchard: attribute extension instead of element use?
21:33:41 <andreas> andreas has joined #ws-addr
21:34:56 <PaulKnight> uyalcina, others : use element notation so BP1.1 is not required
21:36:14 <PaulKnight> discussion of requiring BP1.1 rather than WSDL 1.1
21:36:43 <gpilz> q+
21:37:04 <PaulKnight> what current products would have issues?
21:38:12 <PaulKnight> dhull: allow extensibility point
21:38:20 <dhull> s/dhull/dorchard/
21:38:22 <Zakim> -gpilz
21:38:40 <PaulKnight> thanks...
21:39:14 <mnot> ack marc
21:39:15 <Zakim> +gpilz
21:39:17 <Zakim> marc, you wanted to ask about HTTP 202 stuff in WSDL binding doc
21:39:49 <PaulKnight> marc: section 3.1.2 - somewhat repititious
21:40:20 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: it was written from perspective of anonymous usage
21:41:04 <PaulKnight> marc: is it in right place?  it does not really have to do with WSDL, but with SOAP.  Maybe move it to SOAP or adendum to SOAP binding?
21:41:37 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: depends on how we want to position it, that might be okay
21:41:43 <mnot> ack dhull
21:41:43 <Zakim> dhull, you wanted to propose separating markup issues from semantics
21:41:58 <dorchard> Marc, I agree with the gist of where you are going with this..
21:42:30 <PaulKnight> dhull: separate semantics, based on my alternate proposal
21:43:15 <uyalcina> q+
21:43:26 <PaulKnight> dhull: in context of SOAP... but don't want to address this in middle of conversation on markup
21:44:32 <PaulKnight> dhull: talk first about angle brackets, then address the proposal (SOAP over HTTP) separately
21:46:13 <PaulKnight> dhull: deal with section 3.1.3 separately, (still in WSDL doc)
21:46:49 <PaulKnight> dhull: two separate subissues of i59
21:47:05 <PaulKnight> markN: what do people think?
21:47:39 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: this is a big change, not clear what dhull is proposing
21:48:32 <PaulKnight> dhull: 3.1.3 mentioned earlier is probably now 3.1.2 
21:49:05 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: maybe it will be editorial, not adding a section
21:50:01 <PaulKnight> dhull: maybe no conflict, reviewing document
21:50:08 <Jonathan_Marsh> q+ to ask whether specification of default values is really necessary.
21:50:30 <PaulKnight> dhull: what do people think?
21:50:43 <PaulKnight> dorchard: seems like two separable things
21:51:36 <PaulKnight> dhull: proposed asynch text is to give rules to say exactly what goes on wire
21:52:39 <PaulKnight> markN: we discussed this at F2F, seemed to have an agreement to go forward using the combined proposal.  concerned about competing proposals on the table now.
21:52:45 <uyalcina> the chair reflects my understanding as well. 
21:53:48 <PaulKnight> markN: suggest dhull expresses his text as a delta against the agreed text
21:54:06 <PaulKnight> dhull: I am trying to do this
21:55:05 <PaulKnight> dhull: want to be able to handle both cases if it can be done easily, hoping to get opinions on the technical feasibility
21:55:53 <PaulKnight> dhull: there may be no conflict, just trying to get opinions, and hope to hear where my proposal might fit in
21:56:13 <Zakim> -Dave_Chappell
21:57:00 <PaulKnight> markN: let's proceed with other decisions and syntax, get that finished, then come back to this.
21:57:17 <mnot> q?
21:57:50 <PaulKnight> dhull: okay, I do want to see this discussed at some point, not want to disrupt momentum
21:57:55 <mnot> ack gpilz
21:58:13 <gpilz> q-
21:58:23 <mnot> ack uyal
21:58:47 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: not want to rehash earlier decisions
21:59:24 <mnot> ack jon
21:59:24 <Zakim> Jonathan_Marsh, you wanted to ask whether specification of default values is really necessary.
21:59:50 <PaulKnight> Jonathan: getting complicated; can we remove the defaulting attribute?
22:00:48 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: considered it, it makes sense, would simplify proposal
22:01:07 <PaulKnight> Jonathan: would it be inconvenient not to have the default
22:01:22 <PaulKnight> Jonathan scremed and disappeared
22:03:01 <PaulKnight> Jonathan: in anonymousUseDefault, can we say that you specify one of three values, otherwise it will be allow. (?)
22:04:17 <PaulKnight> Jonathan: can we get rid of ... ( can someone post the proposal?)
22:04:36 <gpilz> q+
22:04:47 <PaulKnight> anish: we discussed some sort of marker for this
22:05:03 <PaulKnight> Jonathan: are there simplifications we can make?
22:06:03 <PaulKnight> dorchard: if you get rid of this, it makes the spec more clear
22:06:16 <mnot> s/dorchard/gpilz/
22:06:50 <PaulKnight> mnot: is this needed or syntactic sugar?
22:08:19 <PaulKnight> can we get rid of it or do we need multiple properties that need to be reconciled at run time?
22:08:43 <Zakim> -Mark_Little
22:09:40 <PaulKnight> Jonathan: unless restricting anonymous is the main case, we should consider this
22:12:44 <mnot> q?
22:13:09 <Zakim> -gpilz
22:13:35 <Zakim> +gpilz
22:14:13 <anish> q+
22:14:32 <mnot> ack gpilz
22:15:01 <PaulKnight> gpilz: these issues  can be skirted if there is no defaulting mechanism
22:16:23 <PaulKnight> mnot: jonathan wants to get rid of the attribute, umit can go either way...
22:17:23 <PaulKnight> anish: the default should not cause restriction on the values of the attribute vs. the element
22:17:50 <PaulKnight> mnot: should we keep the attribute byDefault?
22:18:01 <marc> q+ to ask if there is a default if we drop the attribute
22:18:06 <PaulKnight> anish: it should be a syntactic roll-up
22:18:31 <PaulKnight> mnot: can we remove the attribute for now?
22:19:05 <PaulKnight> Marc: is there still a default for ReplyTo?
22:20:16 <PaulKnight> mnot: any problem with dropping defaultUse attribute?
22:20:31 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: it appears several places
22:20:57 <marc> UsingAddr means either anon or non-anon if other element not present
22:21:03 <marc> right ?
22:21:56 <PaulKnight> mnot: we are asking Umit to remove this item, then look at this to see if it causes other issues
22:22:10 <anish> q+
22:22:39 <uyalcina> q+
22:22:43 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: allowed, always, never - should we keep these values, or modify?
22:22:46 <mnot> ack anish
22:23:08 <PaulKnight> anish: I have a use case where defaulting is useful
22:24:15 <PaulKnight> anish: response going back on HTTP response channel... (describes use case)
22:24:29 <mnot> ack marc
22:24:29 <Zakim> marc, you wanted to ask if there is a default if we drop the attribute
22:24:35 <PaulKnight> mnot: still syntactic sugar?
22:24:42 <PaulKnight> anish: yes
22:25:02 <PaulKnight> mnot: still at a point where we can ask Umit to remove this for now
22:25:19 <pauld> pauld has joined #ws-addr
22:25:24 <PaulKnight> no objections to action item for Umit for this.
22:25:27 <mnot> ACTION: Umit to revise i059 sub-proposal 1 to remove defaulting attribute
22:25:40 <mnot> ack uyal
22:25:56 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: syntax of element?
22:26:24 <PaulKnight> dhull: required, prohibited, optional
22:26:24 <dhull> +1
22:26:34 <dhull> s/dhull/marsh/
22:26:52 <marc> +1 to johnathan, i proposed exactly that at the end of the F2F
22:27:23 <PaulKnight> support for using Jonathan's suggested values
22:28:09 <uyalcina> q+
22:28:55 <PaulKnight> does not work well with operation level  granularity
22:29:18 <Katy> q+
22:29:27 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: yuckyness
22:30:04 <PaulKnight> Katy: can we keep ....
22:30:21 <TRutt> q+
22:30:25 <dhull> q+
22:31:37 <PaulKnight> Jonathan: support 3 elements, no operation level support
22:33:00 <PaulKnight> mnot: this sounds like we are reconsidering the F2F agreement
22:34:04 <PaulKnight> Katy: at F2F, we said we needed a separate proposal?
22:34:11 <mnot> ack uyal
22:34:13 <mnot> ack katy
22:34:49 <mnot> ACTION: keep syntax option 3 up-to-date as alternate proposal
22:34:52 <uyalcina> q+
22:34:58 <PaulKnight> anish: reconsider decison from F2F on operation level granularity?
22:35:40 <Zakim> -gpilz
22:35:43 <PaulKnight> mnot: decisions were to help us move forward, but we can consider all proposals as they come forward, one by one
22:35:55 <PaulKnight> mnot: focus for now on Umit's proposal
22:36:40 <PaulKnight> anish: decisions independent of proposal - are we reconsidering them?
22:37:15 <PaulKnight> uyalcina: these are not just my proposals, I'm incorporating the decisions made at the F2F
22:37:40 <PaulKnight> TomRutt: having this available does not mean everyone has to use it
22:38:16 <PaulKnight> but this may bear on how conformance to the standard is measured
22:39:20 <mnot> q?
22:39:30 <mnot> ack Trutt
22:39:37 <mnot> ack dhull
22:40:01 <PaulKnight> mnot: moving forward, we'll take Umit's proposal as the baseline going forward, with additional proposal by Jonathan to be considered later
22:41:59 <PaulKnight> dhull: is the one-element solution compatible with multiple values (?)
22:42:00 <mnot> ack uyal
22:42:32 <PaulKnight> mnot: what else do we need to do to address i59?
22:43:41 <mnot> ACTION 2=Jonathan to keep syntax option 3 (three elements) up-to-date as an alternate proposal
22:45:25 <PaulKnight> mnot: how do people feel about WSDL dependency?  to include MEPs 
22:46:01 <Zakim> +gpilz
22:47:19 <PaulKnight> gpilz: MEPs beginning with in are easy to define, but those with out are harder, no clue..
22:47:58 <PaulKnight> dhull: i have already done the action, see the proposal
22:48:25 <Zakim> -swinkler
22:48:47 <PaulKnight> dhull: flowing into Umit's text is the main issue
22:48:58 <dhull> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2005Nov/0051.html
22:49:19 <PaulKnight> mnot: please look at how to flow it into Umit's text
22:49:42 <PaulKnight> dhull: okay, this is fairly well covered now
22:50:52 <Nilo> Nilo has joined #ws-addr
22:50:56 <PaulKnight> xmlp recharter is expected after AC meeting
22:52:21 <PaulKnight> mnot: reformulation of option 1 by Umit due Friday
22:52:50 <PaulKnight> mnot: look at David Hull's proposal
22:53:08 <PaulKnight> mnot: hopeful we can close i59 by end of year
22:53:34 <PaulKnight> mnot: only a few more meetings this year
22:53:48 <PaulKnight> mnot: any other thoughts on i59?  none
22:53:59 <PaulKnight> TOPIC: agenda item 7, testing
22:54:57 <PaulKnight> PaulD: will have regular meetings  for remainder of year
22:55:07 <Zakim> -Dave_Orchard
22:55:15 <Zakim> -Anish
22:55:16 <PaulKnight> mnot: any other business?
22:56:22 <pauld> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2005Nov/0081.html
22:56:28 <PaulKnight> vikas: recent email on async cases? does it fall under i59?  How source routing works?
22:57:43 <PaulKnight> mnot: anyone want to respond?  It's not part of i59, which is async in general; this is not in scope for us.
22:57:49 <Zakim> -Steve_Vinoski
22:57:50 <Zakim> -pauld
22:57:51 <Zakim> -yinleng
22:57:52 <PaulKnight> Meeting adjourned
22:57:52 <Zakim> -Prasad_Yendluri
22:57:53 <Zakim> -marc
22:57:55 <Zakim> -MarkN
22:57:56 <Zakim> -Nilo_Mitra
22:57:58 <Zakim> -Vikas_Deolaliker
22:57:59 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Marsh
22:58:03 <Zakim> -Tom_Rutt
22:58:05 <Zakim> -[IBM]
22:58:06 <Zakim> -Bob_Freund
22:58:08 <Zakim> -Umit_Yalcinalp
22:58:10 <Zakim> -TonyR
22:58:14 <Zakim> -Mark_Peel/Katy_Warr
22:58:14 <TRutt> TRutt has left #ws-addr
22:58:17 <bob> bob has left #ws-addr
22:58:18 <Zakim> -David_Illsley
22:58:20 <Zakim> -Andreas_Bjarlestam
22:58:22 <Zakim> -gpilz
22:58:30 <PaulKnight> anything to do to close the IRC??
22:58:52 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
22:58:55 <yinleng> yinleng has left #ws-addr
22:58:59 <mnot> rrsagent, please generate minutes
22:58:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/28-ws-addr-minutes.html mnot
22:58:59 <TonyR> TonyR has left #ws-addr
22:59:00 <PaulKnight> bye
22:59:17 <mnot> rrsagent, please make logs public
22:59:19 <Zakim> -Paul_Knight
22:59:24 <mnot> rrsagent, please generate minutes
22:59:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/28-ws-addr-minutes.html mnot
23:00:41 <vinoski> vinoski has left #ws-addr
23:00:47 <Zakim> -Dave_Hull
23:00:49 <Zakim> WS_AddrWG()4:00PM has ended
23:00:50 <Zakim> Attendees were David_Illsley, Mark_Peel/Katy_Warr, Paul_Knight, Bob_Freund, Vikas_Deolaliker, MarkN, swinkler, Dave_Chappell, Dave_Hull, Nilo_Mitra, TonyR, Tom_Rutt, Steve_Vinoski,
23:00:55 <Zakim> ... Jonathan_Marsh, Prasad_Yendluri, Umit_Yalcinalp, Andreas_Bjarlestam, Mark_Little, pauld, marc, gpilz, [IBM], Anish, yinleng, Dave_Orchard, [Microsoft]