10:00:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #er
10:00:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/24-er-irc
10:00:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #er
10:00:41 <shadi> zakim, room for 10 at 6:00?
10:00:43 <Zakim> ok, shadi; conference Team_(er)11:00Z scheduled with code 83261 (TEAM1) at 06:00 for 60 minutes until 1200Z
10:39:21 <stevef> stevef has joined #er
10:54:09 <Yehya> Yehya has joined #er
10:55:07 <Andrew> Andrew has joined #er
10:55:39 <Andrew> hi Shadi, Steve, Yehya
10:56:25 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has now started
10:56:31 <Zakim> +johannes
10:56:33 <Zakim> -johannes
10:56:34 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has ended
10:56:35 <Zakim> Attendees were johannes
10:57:34 <shadi> hi andrew
10:57:51 <shadi> meeting: ET TF
10:57:54 <Andrew> what was that bit about Team_er
10:58:16 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tools/2005Nov/0067.html
10:58:44 <shadi> it seems zakim is sometimes confused with ad-hoc meetings :(
10:59:05 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has now started
10:59:07 <Zakim> +Shadi
10:59:14 <Andrew> well, 11:00 to 11:00 is a VERY short meeting
10:59:32 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #er
10:59:52 <Sandor> Sandor has joined #er
11:00:03 <shadi> zakim, drop shadi
11:00:03 <Zakim> Shadi is being disconnected
11:00:04 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has ended
11:00:06 <Zakim> Attendees were Shadi
11:00:18 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has now started
11:00:19 <Zakim> +Shadi
11:00:26 <ChrisR> What is the passcode for the bridge?
11:00:32 <shadi> zakim, code?
11:00:32 <Zakim> the conference code is 83261 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shadi
11:00:41 <shadi> not letting me in :(
11:00:44 <shadi> zakim, drop shadi
11:00:44 <Zakim> Shadi is being disconnected
11:00:45 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has ended
11:00:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Shadi
11:00:50 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has now started
11:00:57 <Zakim> +??P0
11:01:04 <Andrew> zakim; ??p0 is Andrew
11:01:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
11:01:09 <Zakim> +Sandor_Herramhof
11:01:29 <Zakim> +johannes
11:01:34 <Andrew>  zakim, ??p0 is Andrew
11:01:34 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
11:01:35 <carlos> carlos has joined #er
11:01:56 <Zakim> +??P4
11:02:21 <Zakim> +Shadi
11:02:41 <Andrew> zakim, ??p4 is Steve
11:02:41 <Zakim> +Steve; got it
11:02:47 <Zakim> +johannes.a
11:03:17 <stevef> stevef has joined #er
11:03:23 <Andrew> zakim, who is here
11:03:23 <Zakim> Andrew, you need to end that query with '?'
11:03:37 <Andrew> zakaim, how is here?
11:03:49 <shadi> zakim, who is on the call?
11:03:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andrew, [IPcaller], Sandor_Herramhof, johannes, Steve, Shadi, johannes.a
11:04:07 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is really Chirs
11:04:07 <Zakim> +Chirs; got it
11:04:23 <Andrew> s/Chirs/Chris
11:04:27 <shadi> zakim, johannes has Yehya Carlos
11:04:27 <Zakim> +Yehya, Carlos; got it
11:05:10 <shadi> zakim, pick a victim
11:05:10 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Andrew
11:05:16 <shadi> zakim, pick a victim
11:05:16 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Carlos
11:05:35 <shadi> zakim, pick a victim
11:05:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose johannes.a
11:06:58 <shadi> scribenick: yehya
11:07:15 <Andrew> topic: Feedback and comments on work so far
11:08:54 <Yehya> Shadi: length of description field of 200 characters seems to be agreed! The intention is to keep the description short. How others think?
11:09:16 <Yehya> All: agreed to that
11:09:30 <Yehya> Carlos: if needed we could later on shorten it.
11:12:14 <Yehya> Shadi: Try always to make it as short as possible. So it should be not more than 100 words. It should not be a hard limit!
11:12:51 <Yehya> Shadi: Now to the question of the border line between evaluation and validation tools.
11:14:14 <Yehya> Shadi: As we offer a flexibel serach function, we can have tools with different features.
11:15:32 <Yehya> Andrew: Authoring tools and related tools as HTML convertre and filter should be listed some where else and not on this list, because they are not per se accessibility tools
11:15:42 <Yehya> Carlos: has the same oponion
11:15:57 <Andrew> Steve: agrees also
11:16:22 <Yehya> Shadi: to check by the people of the authoring tools if they want to host such a list.
11:16:53 <Yehya> Shadi: otherwise may be we will have to host an extra samll list about such tools
11:17:22 <Yehya> shadi: other type of tools are services filters,...
11:19:38 <Yehya> Steve: check the definition of conversion, repair tools. Do we need to look on such tools which have been long not updated?
11:20:05 <Yehya> shadi: some tools need to be droped. 
11:20:52 <Yehya> shadi: some tools ar the outcome of research projects. After the project they are not then maitained
11:21:52 <Yehya> Steve: should we put such tools in an extra list and in the main list. They are more may be for academic reasons necessary
11:22:30 <Yehya> carlos: our job is not to provide research materials
11:22:55 <Yehya> shadi: in w3c we are interessted in providing such info to help people develop new tools
11:24:31 <Yehya> carlos: following this path would be not consistent
11:24:45 <Yehya> shadi: what are the criteria in your oponion
11:25:26 <Yehya> carlos: usable and up to date tools and accessibility evaluation are the criteria
11:26:13 <Yehya> shadi: in some tools there is only a gap in the development
11:26:29 <Yehya> carlos: at least contact data should exist
11:26:47 <Yehya> Steve: we could have an achive for such old tools
11:28:16 <Andrew> Andrew: the current http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/existingtools.html links to the archive at http://www.w3.org/Tools/
11:28:25 <Yehya> andrew: the current w3c website contains an archive llink at the bottom. dozens of tools are listed there
11:29:10 <Yehya> steve: if some tools are revived we could take them again into the main list
11:30:00 <Yehya> shadi: what other types of tools do we have? we have covered authoring tools; proof of concept tools
11:30:14 <Yehya> andrew: proxies and filters as well
11:31:02 <Yehya> andrew: the description of such tools are not directly accessibility tools
11:32:21 <Yehya> steve: they are not designed for that. There is no documentation how to use as accessibility tools
11:32:48 <Yehya> steve: do somebody have a list of suspects?
11:34:12 <Yehya> shadi: we should judge every tool on single case check
11:35:08 <Yehya> shadi: repair tools and filters are creating confusion
11:36:52 <Yehya> andrew: leave them as historical record 
11:37:31 <Yehya> shadi: office conversion tools are worked on by the uni of illinios
11:37:44 <Yehya> andrew: they are authoring tools
11:38:57 <Yehya> shadi: the converter list has been created by somebody from cern
11:39:31 <Yehya> steve: the last update is from 2002
11:40:24 <Yehya> shadi: to check with the authring tools group, what tey can take over.
11:40:53 <Yehya> shadi: summary; check which tools can be took out (authoring, archive,..)
11:42:41 <Yehya> action: for shadi to check with the current list of tools, are included in archives or should be hosted by other groups and come to the group with the remain
11:43:02 <Yehya> action: all others; check for tools and classify them
11:44:12 <Yehya> steve: it would be usefull for commercial tools to check if there is a trail version
11:44:37 <Yehya> shadi: we add to license "demo version available" or "trail"
11:45:19 <Yehya> andrew: usefull to know if the commercial tools in the range of 100$ 1000$ 10.000$ or 100.0000$ ... are
11:46:27 <Yehya> shadi: difficult, because listing of prices is not inline with rules of w3c.
11:47:26 <Yehya> shadi: reflect type of tool in the description (enterprise, ...)
11:48:43 <Yehya> carlos: price is difficult to specifiy. It depends on so many issues. But target audience could be specified. E.g. big portals
11:48:59 <Yehya> shadi: let us specify the categories of target audience.
11:49:34 <Yehya> carlos: public sector, commercial, private. But much importnat the website size is the bigger issue
11:50:38 <Yehya> shadi: automated or not. multi page or not. 
11:50:59 <Yehya> andrew: spiding power is as well an important issue.
11:52:48 <Yehya> shadi: enterprise, commercial, freeware, .... the word enterprise is expected to handle much more pages rather than a desktop tool
11:53:44 <Yehya> andrew: who will investigate that? It will be a huge effort.
11:55:12 <Yehya> shadi: summary; add to license model "trail" "enterprise" "spiding/crawling"
11:55:58 <Yehya> andrew: agree to "trail" not to the other two
11:56:15 <Yehya> steve: how many pages could be checked would be usefull
11:58:25 <Yehya> andrew: should we put the info about  license model "trail" "enterprise" "spiding/crawling" in the description?
12:00:06 <Yehya> shadi: sandor you could contact some vendors to check if they would like to have such info in structured fields or in description?
12:00:30 <Yehya> shadi: suggest to drop adding to the  license model "trail" "enterprise" "spiding/crawling" 
12:00:37 <Yehya> all: agreed to that
12:01:15 <Yehya> steve: is it possible to add new tools?
12:01:51 <Yehya> shadi: only if it is low hanging fruit e.g. imergo
12:02:29 <Yehya> shadi: please focus on the current list. Afterwards we try to extend the list
12:03:36 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2005/tools
12:06:09 <Yehya> shadi: volunteers to check the remaining tools
12:06:19 <Yehya> steve: offered himself
12:07:07 <Yehya> shadi: resend a reminder to the vendor if they do not replay in an appropriate time period
12:07:38 <Yehya> shadi: cc the list in the mails to the vendors
12:08:20 <Yehya> shadi: who is interessted in checking for new tools?
12:08:32 <Yehya> steve: yes
12:08:40 <Yehya> sandor: yes
12:09:15 <Yehya> carlos: no at the moment (FIT)
12:09:29 <Andrew> andrew: yes
12:10:06 <Yehya> shadi: other people may join in teh future e.g. a japanese person
12:12:12 <Yehya> andrew: how about vendors who does not reply. Should their toosl be excluded?
12:12:26 <Yehya> shadi: we should decide on a case by case basis
12:13:48 <Yehya> shadi: AOB
12:15:03 <Yehya> shadi: propose next meeting 08.12.2005 
12:15:46 <Yehya> andrew: deadline?
12:17:21 <Yehya> shadi: the real deadline is the end of the month. If we do have 50% answers, then we can start the list with them. We can start to publish then in decembre 
12:20:16 <Yehya> shadi: availablity for next meeting?
12:20:29 <Yehya> shadi: 09.12.2005?
12:20:56 <Yehya> shadi: 09.12.2005 12:00 CET
12:22:13 <Yehya> action: shadi; modify the form approperiatly
12:22:46 <Andrew> Action: shadi to correct spelling for graphics & scaleable
12:23:00 <Zakim> -Chirs
12:23:02 <Zakim> -Sandor_Herramhof
12:23:04 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #er
12:23:05 <Zakim> -johannes
12:23:09 <Zakim> -Andrew
12:23:10 <Zakim> -johannes.a
12:24:18 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/before/
12:24:36 <Yehya> Yehya has left #er
12:25:03 <stevef> stevef has joined #er
12:25:11 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/before/
12:25:15 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/
12:26:46 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/features
12:31:37 <Zakim> -Steve
12:31:38 <Zakim> -Shadi
12:31:38 <Zakim> Team_(er)11:00Z has ended
12:31:40 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandor_Herramhof, Andrew, Shadi, Steve, Chirs, Yehya, Carlos
12:32:01 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
12:32:08 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
12:32:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/24-er-minutes.html shadi
12:32:20 <Andrew> Andrew has left #er
12:32:20 <shadi> zakim, bye
12:32:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #er
12:32:25 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
12:32:25 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/24-er-actions.rdf :
12:32:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: for shadi to check with the current list of tools, are included in archives or should be hosted by other groups and come to the group with the remain [1]
12:32:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/24-er-irc#T11-42-41
12:32:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: all others; check for tools and classify them [2]
12:32:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/24-er-irc#T11-43-02
12:32:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shadi; modify the form approperiatly [3]
12:32:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/24-er-irc#T12-22-13
12:32:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shadi to correct spelling for graphics & scaleable [4]
12:32:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/24-er-irc#T12-22-46