IRC log of dawg on 2005-11-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:34:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:34:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:34:08 [jeen]
Janne, I've had the same problem, try *0 and get the operator to patch you through
14:34:09 [DanC]
Zakim, this is dawg
14:34:09 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()9:30AM
14:34:17 [AndyS_]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:34:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Lee_Feigenbaum, EliasT, ??P3, Ernesto_Damiani, ??P5, PatH
14:34:19 [JanneS]
14:34:20 [Zakim]
14:34:29 [LeeF]
zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is LeeF
14:34:29 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:34:31 [AndyS_]
zakim, ??P3 is AndyS_
14:34:31 [Zakim]
+AndyS_; got it
14:34:45 [DanC]
agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
14:34:50 [LeeF]
zakim, plesae mute me
14:34:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'plesae mute me', LeeF
14:34:51 [DanC]
agenda + next meeting
14:34:57 [DanC]
agenda + Security Considerations
14:35:02 [LeeF]
zakim, pleASe mute me
14:35:02 [Zakim]
LeeF should now be muted
14:35:03 [DanC]
agenda + QL Conformance
14:35:09 [DanC]
agenda + toward SPARQL QL updated WD
14:35:13 [Zakim]
14:35:15 [DanC]
agenda + issues#rdfSemantics
14:35:22 [DanC]
agenda + issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol
14:35:27 [JanneS]
Zakim, IPcaller is JanneS
14:35:27 [Zakim]
+JanneS; got it
14:35:28 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:35:30 [DanC]
agenda + Toward CR
14:35:32 [Zakim]
14:35:37 [DanC]
agenda + protocol testing update
14:35:41 [Zakim]
14:35:42 [DanC]
agenda + test suite maintenance
14:35:49 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:35:49 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:35:55 [SteveH]
ip caller 2 is steveh
14:36:04 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:36:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, Ernesto_Damiani, PatH, DanC, JanneS, [IPcaller]
14:36:07 [SteveH]
Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH
14:36:07 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:36:32 [DanC]
Zakim, Ernesto_Damiani is EnricoF
14:36:32 [Zakim]
+EnricoF; got it
14:37:07 [Zakim]
14:37:15 [jeen]
Zakim, ??P5 is Jeen
14:37:15 [Zakim]
+Jeen; got it
14:37:17 [DanC]
-> 1st nov DAWG minutes
14:37:26 [Zakim]
14:37:56 [DanC]
RESOLVED to approve minutes 1st Nov
14:38:34 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:38:34 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "next meeting" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:46 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:40:46 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Security Considerations" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:55 [DanC]
agenda + next meeting, try again
14:41:19 [DanC]
Subject: [OK?] Re: SPARQL: Security Considerations
14:41:19 [DanC]
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:46:00 -0500 (07:46 CST)
14:42:06 [DanC]
ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself [CONTINUES]
14:42:08 [DanC]
Ericp's is done
14:42:15 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:42:15 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "QL Conformance" taken up [from DanC]
14:42:36 [JanneS]
14:42:48 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 5
14:42:49 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]
14:43:04 [LeeF]
Chair: DanC
14:43:07 [LeeF]
Scribe: JanneS
14:43:40 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 6
14:43:40 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC]
14:44:32 [JanneS]
DanC: if you say 'simply entails' it matches with current design, does it?
14:45:53 [JanneS]
DanC: bnodes in the query act likes variables (can be bound to different nodes)
14:46:16 [ericP]
zakim, please dial ericp=617.2
14:46:16 [Zakim]
I am sorry, ericP; I do not know a number for ericp=617.2
14:46:25 [ericP]
zakim, please dial ericp-617.2
14:46:25 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:46:26 [Zakim]
14:46:51 [DanC]
Zakim, drop ericp
14:46:51 [Zakim]
Ericp is being disconnected
14:46:52 [ericP]
zakim, please drip ericP
14:46:52 [Zakim]
14:46:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please drip ericP', ericP
14:47:50 [JanneS]
Enrico: alternative to doing skolemization would be current design and the subgraph matching people co
14:47:54 [JanneS]
14:48:52 [ericP]
zakim, please dial ericp-617.2
14:48:52 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:48:54 [Zakim]
14:49:04 [ericP]
zakim, please drop ericP
14:49:04 [Zakim]
Ericp is being disconnected
14:49:05 [Zakim]
14:49:10 [SteveH]
Zakim, mute me
14:49:10 [Zakim]
SteveH should now be muted
14:51:09 [kendall]
kendall has joined #dawg
14:51:36 [AndyS_]
Home: Input: <a> <b> <c> . Simple entails _:a1 <b> <c> (and many other triples) so { ?x ?y ?z } gives what? _:a1 <b> <c>??
14:51:50 [AndyS_]
14:52:09 [AndyS_]
14:52:12 [franconi]
14:52:28 [Zakim]
14:52:35 [ericP]
14:52:39 [DanC]
-> The Semantics of SPARQL 2 Nov 2005
14:55:38 [LeeF]
:jon :plays :baseball
14:55:38 [LeeF]
_:a :plays :baseball
14:55:39 [JanneS]
DanC: john plays Baseball, someone plays Baseball -> lean: John plays baseball. Only one answer to (?x ?y ?z)
14:56:48 [JanneS]
Enrico: 3 levels: 1. current design where the original graph doesn't include redundancy
14:56:56 [JanneS]
2. no redundancy at all
14:57:03 [JanneS]
3. added redundancy
14:58:19 [ericP]
<John> <plays> <baseball>.
14:58:19 [ericP]
_:x <plays> <baseball>.
14:58:20 [ericP]
_:y <plays> <baseball>.
14:58:22 [ericP]
14:59:05 [ericP]
PatH: a non-lean graph could be a subgraph of a lean graph
14:59:19 [ericP]
(seemed important, hope i captured it)
14:59:27 [LeeF]
yes, that's accurate.
15:00:24 [ericP]
<John> <plays> <baseball>:
15:00:24 [ericP]
<name> "John".
15:00:24 [ericP]
_:x <plays> <baseball>;
15:00:24 [ericP]
<name> "Bob".
15:00:24 [ericP]
_:y <plays> <baseball>;
15:00:26 [ericP]
<name> "Bob".
15:00:36 [LeeF]
patH: current design has blanket assumption that answer bindings must be bound to "things" that already exist in the graph (prevents added redundancy)
15:00:45 [AndyS_]
Renaming gets done in the results format so no need here.
15:01:11 [ericP]
?x <plays> <baseball> leans out to:
15:01:18 [ericP]
<John> <plays> <baseball>.
15:01:20 [ericP]
15:01:22 [ericP]
<John> <plays> <baseball>.
15:01:31 [ericP]
_:z <plays> <baseball>.
15:01:35 [ericP]
15:04:23 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, EnricoF, PatH, DanC, JanneS, SteveH (muted), Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp
15:05:59 [LeeF]
jeen - I thought that was the case except for entailment scenarios that can't be expressed as a single logical closure graph (the OWL-DL little house scenario?).
15:06:32 [LeeF]
zakim, unmute me
15:06:32 [Zakim]
LeeF should no longer be muted
15:08:33 [patH]
Lee- as long as we use 'entails' in the actual statement, we don't have to worry about the logical closure issue.
15:09:00 [LeeF]
Right, I understand that patH, thanks.
15:11:50 [EliasT]
does no code change, means no ENTAILS keyword?
15:12:00 [AndyS_]
15:12:20 [AndyS_]
No ENTAILS keyword
15:12:31 [EliasT]
so how does Enrico see us giving people hooks for other entailment levels?
15:12:40 [franconi]
I mean with the ENTAILS keywork, which defaults to simple-entailment
15:12:48 [DanC]
ack steveh
15:12:49 [patH]
Theoretical hooks in definitions, not code hooks.
15:12:57 [ericP]
15:13:07 [SteveH]
Zakim, mute me
15:13:07 [Zakim]
SteveH should now be muted
15:13:16 [ericP]
15:13:47 [JanneS]
JanneS: lc ok, hopes the editorial wording would match with a more generic semantics roadmap -> no need to change existing code
15:13:58 [EliasT]
I'm still confused, patH says theoretical hooks, Enrico says ENTAILS keyword. which one is it?
15:14:22 [franconi]
15:14:25 [EliasT]
15:14:59 [ericP]
Stick with LC:
15:14:59 [ericP]
I want people to fold the semantics parameter into either the service graph or the FROM/FROM NAMED graphs.
15:15:02 [ericP]
I haven't seen interop use cases motivating pushing this parameter into the protocol or the grammar.
15:15:05 [ericP]
Peter may have problems running test cases that rely on non-lean graphs if his engine requires test cases. Do we have any?
15:15:06 [JanneS]
Jos: ok with LC
15:15:19 [patH]
Enrico, do you mean that the query will specify which entailment to use?
15:15:20 [EliasT]
if entails defaults to our current design, then we don't have to change the test cases, but code would have to change to throw an error if a different entail parameter is passed.
15:15:27 [AndyS_]
algebra has not been worked through and I fear problems will arise if we rush believing it is trivial (e.g. undistinguished variables, unbounds)
15:15:32 [SerT]
SerT has joined #dawg
15:15:32 [DanC]
q+ to clarify that owl entailment can't be "hidden" in the dataset
15:15:46 [patH]
Andy, yes. We need to do the checks.
15:16:18 [LeeF]
thanks, DanC, that's whay I was trying to say in IRC.
15:16:28 [franconi]
Pat, there are several possibilities here: for example theh service may offer different addresses for the different entailments
15:17:12 [JanneS]
I thought I have voted for having the different entailments being provided at different addresses...
15:20:00 [DanC]
3 columns
15:20:26 [EliasT]
what does different address mean? different endpoints or different default-graph-uri? both?
15:20:35 [kendall]
hmm, while not officially here, i need to think about multiple endpoints in the WSDL, whether there's any issue with having multiple endpoints for the same (from the WSDL point of view) operation
15:20:43 [LeeF]
What are the current objections to (1) specifying the LC design w/ entailment verbiage and (2) omitting ENTAILS, hence requiring that any other entailment be encoded in an endpoint or graph URI?
15:20:49 [kendall]
ah, good question elias
15:20:53 [JanneS]
(I thought different endpoints, Elias)
15:21:08 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 5
15:21:08 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]
15:21:14 [patH]
Lee, thats the gaol Im trying to steer us to.
15:21:17 [AndyS_]
OWL disjunction : distinguished / non-distinguished variables change the answer
15:21:26 [patH]
gaol/goal (!)
15:21:46 [AndyS_]
ie. chnage the SELECT and the change
15:21:51 [EliasT]
I guess we've moved on to next agendum.
15:21:53 [ericP]
ack ericP
15:21:55 [AndyS_]
ie. chnage the SELECT and the # solutions change
15:24:52 [LeeF]
AndyS_, I'm sorry - which example is that, again, that illustrates the distinguished/non-distinguished variable issue?
15:25:53 [AndyS_]
Enricos worker example or Bijans (will get links...)
15:26:09 [LeeF]
I know that example, no need for the link. Thanks.
15:26:42 [DanC]
DONE: ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ...
15:26:42 [LeeF]
I just didn't remember it involving the # of bindings changing with the projection changing. Will re-look at it.
15:26:55 [DanC]
DONE: # ACTION: PatH to review The Semantics of SPARQL
15:27:15 [DanC]
ACTION: PatH to sketch tests that characterize impact of semantics work
15:27:20 [DanC]
-- continues
15:27:46 [AndyS_]
15:28:39 [DanC]
ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness [CONTINUES]
15:29:00 [AndyS_]
Enricos ==>
15:29:07 [DanC]
ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [CONTINUES]
15:31:58 [DanC]
ACTION: Enrico extend to cover "the algebra", i.e. optional, UNBOUND
15:32:19 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 6
15:32:19 [Zakim]
agendum 6, issues#rdfSemantics, closed
15:32:20 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:32:22 [Zakim]
4. QL Conformance [from DanC]
15:32:35 [franconi]
Semantics of optional:
15:33:19 [ericP]
15:33:36 [AndyS_]
Enrico - there was a Q from Steve - did it get an answer?
15:34:52 [franconi]
Which Q?
15:35:14 [AndyS_]
In email - see the lists
15:35:59 [AndyS_]
Enrico - see
15:37:20 [DanC]
EricP is convinced a conformance section is worthwhile; should be editorial diff to rq23
15:37:24 [franconi]
Ah, I lost it :-) Oh yes, this is it - I agree
15:37:35 [DanC]
DanC suggests getting the relevant protocol text before going to the commentor; WG decision not needed.
15:37:45 [DanC]
Zakim, close this item
15:37:45 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
15:37:47 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:37:48 [Zakim]
4. QL Conformance [from DanC]
15:38:03 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 4
15:38:03 [Zakim]
agendum 4, QL Conformance, closed
15:38:04 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:38:05 [Zakim]
7. issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol [from DanC]
15:38:07 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 5
15:38:07 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]
15:38:54 [DanC]
-> handling SPARQL QL comments
15:39:55 [DanC]
-> # 2005-08-17T13:55:31Z from RRLevering
15:45:02 [AndyS_]
15:45:17 [DanC]
2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan
15:45:31 [DanC]
ACTION Jeen: address 2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan
15:47:39 [Zakim]
15:48:06 [LeeF]
LeeF has left #dawg
15:48:14 [LeeF]
LeeF has joined #dawg
15:48:18 [LeeF]
15:51:50 [ericP]
{ ?x sparql:isIRI ?y }
15:51:52 [DanC]
... FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isIRI(?x) )
15:52:21 [ericP]
15:52:31 [ericP]
... FILTER ( isIRI(?x) )
15:53:42 [SteveH]
no opinion
15:53:47 [ericP]
AndyS: i prefer that all functions have a URI
15:53:57 [ericP]
... including the level-breakers
15:54:28 [SteveH]
15:54:41 [ericP]
i.e. FILTER ( isBound(?x) ) vs. FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isBOUND(?x) ) vs.
15:54:54 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from r.newman
15:57:10 [JanneS]
DanC suggests publishing of new WD with Eric's and Andy's changes + approval from Mr. X by 16th
15:58:07 [JanneS]
EricP: could take the time to issue new LC
15:59:20 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: propose changes-from-lc section
15:59:21 [JanneS]
DanC: who could do section-by-section change log?
15:59:52 [EliasT]
will that publication have answers to all of the comments in ?
16:00:22 [DanC]
(I'm somewhat inclined to not decide today on the grounds of time)
16:00:36 [AndyS_]
Some are susbtantive which is one place where we need WG members help
16:01:12 [AndyS_]
i.e. take an issue - propose changes (diffs to HTML best) - send to WG.
16:01:30 [AndyS_]
(the right answer is "current text" unless you find a bug :-)
16:02:07 [EliasT]
we don't have to have specific assignments.. right?
16:02:29 [EliasT]
everyone shold be looking at them and answering what they can... concurrency is solved by email reply to the comment, correct?
16:02:59 [DanC]
16:03:05 [AndyS_]
No - just pick one - tell WG if it will be long thought process
16:03:11 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:03:18 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:03:18 [RRSAgent]
16:04:10 [DanC]
ACTION Andy/EricP: handle as many comments as is feasible by Friday, mail the WG
16:04:38 [EliasT]
16:04:45 [Zakim]
16:05:43 [Zakim]
16:06:08 [AndyS_]
16:06:52 [Zakim]
16:07:11 [AndyS_]
Whose typing loudly?
16:07:16 [Zakim]
16:07:23 [JanneS]
16:07:31 [patH]
sorry, that was me typing,. Ive muted.
16:07:35 [AndyS_]
16:08:00 [AndyS_]
Looking at :
16:08:08 [Zakim]
16:11:07 [ericP]
zakim, space for 5?
16:11:08 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; conference Team_(dawg)16:11Z scheduled with code 83261 (TEAM1) for 60 minutes until 1711Z
16:11:25 [ericP]
AndyS, DanC, anyone lese, care to call into that?
16:11:38 [ericP]
i don't think i can call into DAWG at this point
16:12:04 [Zakim]
16:12:34 [Zakim]
16:12:53 [Zakim]
16:18:23 [ericP_]
ericP_ has joined #dawg
16:18:27 [ericP_]
hi all
16:18:39 [DanC]
erip, nearestAirport?
16:18:44 [ericP_]
16:18:44 [DanC]
16:18:47 [DanC]
16:19:04 [ericP_]
yeah, that's a bug in screen
16:19:06 [Zakim]
16:19:08 [Zakim]
16:19:09 [ericP_]
well, a designe flaw
16:19:09 [Zakim]
16:19:16 [Zakim]
16:19:17 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:19:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were EliasT, PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS_, JanneS, SteveH, EnricoF, Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp
16:19:22 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop