11:47:26 RRSAgent has joined #vmtf 11:47:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-irc 11:47:32 Zakim has joined #vmtf 11:47:41 zakim, this will be vmtf 11:47:41 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, RalphS 11:47:52 rrsagent, bye 11:47:52 I see no action items 11:48:42 RRSAgent has joined #vmtf 11:48:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-irc 11:48:53 rrsagent, please make logs public 12:07:53 danbri has joined #vmtf 13:00:35 SW_BPD(VMTF)9:00AM has now started 13:00:44 +Tom_Baker 13:01:00 hi folks 13:01:27 +Danbri 13:03:36 danbri2 has joined #vmtf 13:05:12 +Ralph 13:05:26 berva has joined #vmtf 13:06:04 tomb has joined #vmtf 13:06:09 hello? 13:06:11 hi 13:06:15 hi folks - bernard here - coming on the phone 13:06:39 RalphS has joined #vmtf 13:06:47 zakim, who's on the call? 13:06:47 On the phone I see Tom_Baker, Danbri, Ralph 13:06:56 Regrets: Libby 13:07:09 +??P30 13:07:19 zakim, ??p30 is Bernard 13:07:19 +Bernard; got it 13:08:16 aliman has joined #vmtf 13:09:20 +??P0 13:09:30 zakim, ??p0 is Alistair 13:09:30 +Alistair; got it 13:09:45 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Oct/0217.html 13:09:50 danbri has changed the topic to: SWBPD agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Oct/0217.html 13:09:54 Meeting: SWBPD Vocab Management TF 13:09:57 Chair: Tom 13:10:01 danbri has changed the topic to: SWBPD VMTF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Oct/0217.html 13:12:04 DanBri: I wrote some thoughts in a blog post the other day 13:12:13 [Ralph hopes for a pointer to that post] 13:12:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Oct/0187.html 13:12:33 <- snapshot of blog post 13:12:48 (i s/\//#/ in the post subsequently) 13:14:40 Scribe: Alistair 13:14:44 tx alistair 13:14:52 ScribeNick: aliman_scribe 13:15:06 tom: marc relator terms resolve to a web page that just defines that one term ... 13:15:22 putting in content negotiation would also allow resolvoe to RDF ... 13:15:34 (that's an option i'd forgotten about) 13:15:41 but from user point of view quite nice, cos user gets just the bit they're looking for ... 13:15:55 attractive solution for users ... 13:16:34 danbri: forgotten that option, sounds attractive ... 13:16:52 http://www.loc.gov/loc.terms/relators/ILL 13:16:55 might vary depending on the namespace, might need to have links between pages ... 13:17:04 can see three designs ... 13:17:33 Tom: http://www.loc.gov/loc.terms/relators/ILL returns just one term 13:17:44 tom: marc example, html generated from a database ... 13:17:56 from user pov its nice. 13:18:15 danbri: leaves lots of space on page for other stuff, e.g. status metadata 13:18:30 ...and translations 13:18:37 tom: i like the principal that the URI for a term resolves to a human-readable depiction of that term ... 13:19:03 could add contextual info, versioning info ... 13:19:05 [presuming content-negotiation also gives an application/rdf+xml depiction too] 13:19:15 can we agree on this as a guiding principal? 13:20:30 Alistair: a single apache directive should be able to give an apache redirection match to the HTML 13:20:42 ... should be same as I'm using for SKOS except it uses a regex 13:21:08 ... asking for HTML causes a redirect, which uses part of the request URI in the redirected URI 13:21:22 DanBri: does an RDF client always get one big document? 13:21:51 Alistair: have options; can make a request for application/rdf+xml return anything we want independently of a request for text/html 13:22:15 ... the practicality of each option depends on how big the vocabulary itself is and some user considerations 13:22:33 tom: other option on html side is to have one big document and go to one part of that doc ... 13:22:38 ... except that for "/" namespaces you can't redirect to a specific point in a document 13:23:00 ... because of #-encoding 13:23:23 DanBri: dublincore.org returns a redirect containing '#' 13:23:36 ... might not be possible with some apache versions 13:24:06 Alistair: could lead to situations where client sees two fragments 13:24:26 ... I think we should accept the apache constraints and work around them 13:24:43 ... may need to have many small HTML documents and this would be the right solution 13:24:56 see http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2005-10-25.html#T09-08-08 for log of what purl dc does 13:25:33 Ralph: I see suggestions that loc.gov/loc.terms/ is using cocoon 13:26:01 Tom: are we agreed that it is nice to resolve the URI of a term to that single term? 13:26:24 ... even if the server requires a single document per term? 13:26:27 purl dc behaviour above was http 1.0; here's the http 1.1 headers: 13:26:33 Server: Apache/1.3.27 13:26:35 Location: http://dublincore.org/2003/03/24/dces#title 13:26:36 Connection: close 13:26:38 Transfer-Encoding: chunked 13:26:39 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 13:26:55 q? 13:27:00 q- 13:27:08 Alistair: appears that LOC is using cocoon to either query a database or transform an XML document 13:27:34 Tom: LOC does have RDF descriptions, they're just located at different URIs -- with .rdf appended 13:28:03 Alistair: I expect most installations would manage the RDF form in an RDF service 13:28:19 ... could write a velocity servlet, for example 13:28:42 ... this would be a more advanced solution 13:28:59 ... small static pages would also work 13:29:22 DanBri: use xslt? 13:29:44 Alistair: yeah, could probably run an XSLT program over a SPARQL query result 13:30:37 ... I think it's fine for the URI of a term to resolve to a small bit of HTML describing only that term 13:30:43 bernard: how does the human user being redirected know that there are other representation? 13:31:12 Bernard: how do you know what request the client is making? 13:31:27 ... i.e. before making the request you don't know what representations are available ... 13:32:02 tom: good point. Could put in a cross reference from html page to rdf page as link .... 13:32:47 bernard: e.g. with SKOS example, you should be able to find out what representations are availabel before making a blind request. 13:33:16 q+ to ask whether there should be an overview of all representations somewhere 13:33:31 ralph: question is, given URI for a class or prop, do we want to serve multiple representations at that URI? ... 13:33:55 different from asking: if there are other representations, in what way should those other URIs cite the URI of the term ... 13:34:29 . Quite reasonable for an application to assume they can dereference URI of class or prop using preferred set of representatin types ... 13:34:46 i.e. you can ask for html first, rdf/xml second ... 13:35:05 so client doesn't need to guess what are available, it lists the things its willing to deal with in order ... 13:35:51 other linking is application specific, e.g. DC might have a seeAlso statement pointing to some other representation. 13:36:34 Bernard: Question is: is you have different aspects (representations) available for a resource, there is no way of knowing before hand which are available. 13:37:22 Ralph: Why does this matter? If you have a list of the representations you want to work with, you provide that list in order in the HTTP request. ... 13:37:58 If you get back something you didn't ask for, assume server doesn't have what you did ask for. What are circumstances where you need to know beforehand? 13:38:14 Tom: there should be an overview of all representations available for each term. 13:38:43 Bernard: yes, this description should be availabe, it's part of the description of the resource. ... 13:38:45 q+ 13:39:29 bernard: ... user does not have access e.g. to the type-map file ... 13:39:56 q+ to confirm that we agree that Best Practice is to serve an RDF representation at a minimum, so the question is whether we feel confident in recommending an [X]HTML representation _in addition_ as Best Practice 13:40:22 Alistair: there might be some utility for functionality to learn the available representations ahead of time 13:40:32 ... I don't know of a way in HTTP to do this directly 13:40:40 ... but we can go a long way without having this functionality 13:40:49 ... I don't think we should worry about this just now 13:41:43 DanBri: I don't think HTTP requires this, but the www.w3.org behavior is, e.g. in the case of the W3C icon, when you ask for a representation that doesn't exist you get back a page describing the available representations 13:41:52 danbri: w3c web server, e.g. w3c icon if you send HEADER for content-type it doesn't have, you get back message pointing to available types ... 13:42:05 ... so it's possible to configure web servers to give you an inspection ability 13:42:12 tomb, you wanted to ask whether there should be an overview of all representations somewhere 13:42:19 ack me 13:42:19 RalphS, you wanted to confirm that we agree that Best Practice is to serve an RDF representation at a minimum, so the question is whether we feel confident in recommending an 13:42:23 ... [X]HTML representation _in addition_ as Best Practice 13:42:56 ralph: can we confirm that best practice that an RDF form be served at prop or class URI? 13:43:21 tom: I think so, this is in the requirements taht alistair posted attached to todays agenda. 13:43:56 ralph: given that this is the case, if our consensus is that you must serve some RDF at this URI, how strongly do we want to say e.g. you may serve an HTML representation .... 13:44:13 and we want to find a way to do that, that is consistent with webarch .... 13:44:28 and if we find a way that can reasonably be implemented by web servers ... 13:44:32 i agree 13:44:44 then we are likely to say best practice is to serve both RDF and HTML. 13:44:58 q+ 13:45:04 ... then it feels like Bernard's question goes away, because then client can assume that both RDF and HTML are avilable. 13:45:56 tom: How does a user know that other representations are available? It desirable that, for user at an html page, there should be links to or overview of other representations. 13:46:47 ralph: client can assume both are available. Are you saying, there may be a third type avilable ? 13:47:26 ralph: client should assume the rdf and html representaitons are available 13:47:29 q+ 13:47:49 tom: client (user) should be aware of other variants 13:48:16 s/(user)// 13:48:25 oops 13:48:32 Tom did say "user", not "client" 13:48:33 ralph: client should assume both are available, makes that information avilable to the user 13:49:08 Tom: if a user is viewing a Web page, how does it know that there are RDF representations for the same things? 13:49:30 Alistair: this issue is separate from Best Practices for dereferencing URIs 13:49:44 ... it is about best practices for documenting your vocabulary in HTML 13:50:27 bernard: point is similar to Tom's point, but agree not in focus for today, we're not speaking of different things. 13:50:35 tom: are you talking about user pov? 13:50:39 bernard; yes. 13:51:17 tom: we don't need to agree on that level of detail, because just getting the content negotiation issue solved is important ... 13:51:21 q+ to ask if Bernard's "user" is the author of a Web page or the reader of that Web page 13:51:46 but users shouldn't click on URI for term and assume no RDF is available because they can't see it ... 13:52:51 ah, perhaps the usability question involves a browser issue -- e.g. if users had some interface to easily tell their browser what representation to prefer on a given 'click' 13:53:27 q+ 13:56:21 ACTION: Tom produce a small draft of the consensus we've reached, starting with the text at the bottom of the agenda in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Oct/0217.html 13:57:16 ack ali 13:57:33 Alistair: I wrote a proposed dereferencing configuration for SKOS 13:57:38 ... I'd like to actually try this out 13:57:51 ... would like some discussion before I try this 13:59:34 Ralph: I could probably persuade the W3C Webmaster and some other Team apache geeks to join us in telecon 14:00:11 Alistair: I want to know both from an architectural point of view and an implementation point of view whether what I'm proposing is acceptable 14:02:39 proposed next telecon Tuesday 15 Nov at 1400 UTC 14:03:21 ACTION: Ralph to invite Matthieu, Gerald, Vivien, Ted to 15 Nov telecon 14:03:44 ACTION: Alistair to write agenda for 15 Nov 14:04:12 next telecon 15 Nov 14:04:37 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:04:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-minutes.html RalphS 14:04:59 [adjourned] 14:05:01 -Tom_Baker 14:05:04 -Alistair 14:05:07 -Bernard 14:05:08 -Ralph 14:05:12 -Danbri 14:05:15 SW_BPD(VMTF)9:00AM has ended 14:05:16 Attendees were Tom_Baker, Danbri, Ralph, Bernard, Alistair 14:05:21 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:05:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-minutes.html RalphS 14:05:34 berva has left #vmtf 14:06:00 zakim, bye 14:06:00 Zakim has left #vmtf 14:06:34 rrsagent, bye 14:06:34 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-actions.rdf : 14:06:34 ACTION: Tom produce a small draft of the consensus we've reached, starting with the text at the bottom of the agenda in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Oct/0217.html [1] 14:06:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-irc#T13-56-21 14:06:34 ACTION: Ralph to invite Matthieu, Gerald, Vivien, Ted to 15 Nov telecon [2] 14:06:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-irc#T14-03-21 14:06:34 ACTION: Alistair to write agenda for 15 Nov [3] 14:06:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-vmtf-irc#T14-03-44