IRC log of eo on 2005-10-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:15:24 [RRSAgent]
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12:15:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-irc
12:15:31 [Zakim]
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12:15:38 [Justin]
zakim, this will be eowg
12:15:38 [Zakim]
ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
12:15:50 [Justin]
Meeting: EOWG
12:15:57 [Wayne]
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12:15:59 [Justin]
Chair: Judy
12:16:09 [Justin]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html
12:16:32 [Wayne]
Good morning, I am scribe today.
12:16:48 [Justin]
Scribe: Wayne
12:17:18 [Justin]
Regrets: Pasquale, Roberto, Andrew, Henk
12:17:28 [Justin]
Good morning Wayne.
12:17:47 [Wayne]
Hi, I hope school is going well.
12:18:41 [Justin]
thanks, it is. We are in the process of learning SVG, which is quite fun and has some great accessibility implications.
12:21:36 [achuter]
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12:28:09 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:28:13 [Zakim]
+??P0
12:28:16 [Zakim]
+Doyle_Saylor
12:28:31 [Zakim]
+Helle_Bjarno
12:28:36 [Zakim]
+Bingham
12:29:02 [Wayne]
zakim, ??p0 is Wayne
12:29:02 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
12:29:58 [Zakim]
+George_Heake
12:30:04 [judy]
judy has joined #eo
12:30:07 [barry]
barry has joined #eo
12:30:08 [Zakim]
+ +44.27.aaaa
12:30:13 [Zakim]
+Judy
12:30:29 [Zakim]
+[ATTcaller]
12:30:40 [hbj]
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12:30:47 [Justin]
zakim, [ATTcaller] is Justin
12:30:47 [Zakim]
+Justin; got it
12:30:52 [Zakim]
+Shawn
12:30:57 [Zakim]
+Barry_McMullin
12:31:14 [Zakim]
+Shadi
12:31:22 [Zakim]
+Loughborough
12:31:39 [Harvey]
Harvey has joined #eo
12:31:52 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
12:31:52 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
12:31:57 [judy]
zakim, [ATTcaller] is Justin
12:31:57 [Zakim]
sorry, judy, I do not recognize a party named '[ATTcaller]'
12:32:23 [judy]
zakim, +44.27.aaaa is Helle
12:32:23 [Zakim]
+Helle; got it
12:32:59 [judy]
Helle, try typing this: /nick Helle
12:33:14 [Zakim]
+Alan
12:33:20 [Liam]
Liam has joined #eo
12:33:28 [judy]
and then: "Zakim, mute me"
12:33:34 [Wayne]
Topic: Outreach
12:33:59 [Zakim]
+Liam
12:34:30 [judy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
12:34:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Wayne, Helle_Bjarno, Bingham, George_Heake, Helle, Judy, Justin (muted), Shawn, Barry_McMullin, Shadi, Loughborough, Alan, Liam
12:38:30 [shawn]
liam, you can also get it from the archives: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/
12:39:25 [Wayne]
Zakim, mute me
12:39:25 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
12:39:49 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
12:39:49 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
12:39:54 [shadi]
q+
12:40:42 [shawn]
q+ to say on list for promo campaigns & have good representattion on EOWG
12:40:47 [Zakim]
-George_Heake
12:41:20 [Zakim]
+George_Heake
12:41:55 [shawn]
ack shawn
12:41:55 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say on list for promo campaigns & have good representattion on EOWG
12:42:20 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
12:42:20 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
12:43:31 [Wayne]
Liam - where did you give the talk?
12:43:55 [shadi]
q-
12:43:56 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
12:43:57 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
12:46:11 [Wayne]
Liam announced a new 3 part (1 lecture, 2 hands-on) at ??
12:47:06 [Wayne]
Group: The issue of accessibility in University curriculum was discussed and will be a meeting topic in the near future.
12:48:45 [MSM]
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12:49:17 [judy]
michael?
12:49:23 [MSM]
MSM has left #eo
12:49:43 [Wayne]
Shadi: Best practices exchange in St. Augstine Date??. In an old castle, expanded content, ...
12:50:10 [shadi]
25 October, 2005
12:50:29 [Wayne]
Topic: Involving Users in Web Accessibility Evaluation
12:50:36 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut.html#discussion
12:50:46 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/10/training.html
12:57:28 [Wayne]
Shawn: Change response to 10-13 meeting, makes clear the limits of informal evaluation, but gives connection with WCAG to give a pointer to complete evaluation.
13:00:55 [Wayne]
Shawn: [re: "Optimizing User Involvement"] Asked group for clarification to the presentation.
13:01:16 [Wayne]
Group: General Aproval...
13:02:07 [Wayne]
Shawn: Optimizing User Involvement, title discussion...
13:02:16 [shawn]
Involving Users Effectively
13:02:23 [shawn]
Getting the Most from Users
13:03:19 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
13:03:19 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
13:05:00 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
13:05:00 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
13:07:25 [shawn]
alan: Effective user invovlement
13:07:33 [shawn]
helle: use users
13:07:41 [shawn]
wayne: effective inclusion of users
13:07:54 [Wayne]
Alan, Helle and group: The Getting the Most... sounds exploitive and is too coloquial.
13:10:05 [Wayne]
Shawn: the two points.. prepare so you dont waste user's and your time and there are variety of levels of usability testing.
13:11:35 [shawn]
Involving Users Effectively
13:11:39 [Wayne]
Group: No objectsions: Involving users effectively...
13:14:34 [Wayne]
Shawn: New Item: Document needs to highlight how documents look to people with diabilities...
13:16:55 [Wayne]
Shawn: The question: do we need an explicit sentence declaring the need for developers to experience assistive technology directly.
13:20:02 [Wayne]
Every developer can benefit from more direct experience with assistive technology.
13:20:26 [barry]
Mark Twaine quote: "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." copied from <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_twain.html>
13:25:00 [Wayne]
William: Introduction (3rd use of "highly motivated"..) is parhaps too much.
13:26:11 [Harvey]
More quotes in my "Precepts on Aging and Growing Old Gracefully" are many pertinent quotations: http://www.hbingham.com/
13:26:20 [Wayne]
Group:
13:27:42 [Wayne]
Group: No need for serious change, trust the editor.
13:30:44 [Zakim]
-Barry_McMullin
13:30:56 [Wayne]
Judy: Bolding of sentence fragments seems to interrupt reading rather than focus important points as intended.
13:31:20 [Wayne]
bye Alan.
13:33:10 [Wayne]
Judy: If we bold, let's bold parsed units... [phrase from nonterminal down].
13:34:55 [Zakim]
-Alan
13:35:42 [Wayne]
Group: Many group members find it jagged, disruptive...
13:35:46 [shawn]
fyi: bolding "Studies of Microsoft's ClearType technology show that it increases reading speeds from screens by 5%." - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/whyscanning.html
13:37:28 [Helle]
me/ zakim, unmute Helle_Bjarno
13:37:40 [shawn]
zakim, unmute helle
13:37:40 [Zakim]
Helle was not muted, shawn
13:38:29 [Wayne]
Shawn: I would like editors discretion on this issue.
13:39:14 [Wayne]
William: Please try: What would a "bold document extraction" look like.
13:40:54 [Wayne]
Shawn: more formatting: Introduction/ Second Paragraph... previous alt-text was in a <code> element; now it is not code.
13:41:35 [Wayne]
Shawn: Does the changed font increase or decrease readability.
13:44:23 [Wayne]
Judy: The code font type may detract from the page usability from the point of view of visual complexity.
13:46:33 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
13:46:33 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
13:46:36 [Wayne]
Group: There is strong agreement to change the "code" look to a natural language setting.
13:47:40 [Wayne]
Shawn: I think it is easier to read in a different font, but the document is visually more complex.
13:48:06 [Wayne]
Liam: Translate the code into language.
13:49:03 [Liam]
Suggested text: the developer might set an image alternate description as "This image is a line art drawing of a dark green magnifying glass. If you click on it, it will take you to the Search page." However, observing a person use the site with a screen reader will clearly show the developer that the alternate description is ineffective and "search" is all that is needed.
13:49:25 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
13:49:25 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
13:53:06 [Wayne]
Shawn: Last teleconference discussed... Including diverse users does not include needs... Shawn does not think needs is necessary... The point is diversity; peopple with disabilities are diverse; most people already think of people with disabilites are "needy"; myth: people have so many needs you can never satisfy them all..
13:53:19 [Harvey]
Harvey leaving now for another meeting
13:54:15 [Wayne]
William: The paragraph communicates an otherness...
13:54:27 [Zakim]
-Bingham
13:55:11 [shawn]
ACTION: shawn address differentness - change to diverse ?
13:58:10 [Wayne]
Shawn: Introduction/ paragraph 2/ use of contractions? Shawn finds lack of contractions as a native speaker of English.
13:59:24 [Wayne]
Judy: "take a web debeloper" is ideomatic. Difficulty depend on the actual contraction.
14:00:05 [Wayne]
suggestion: "consider a web developer ..."
14:02:50 [Wayne]
Judy: Are there any objections to sending this to the Web based survey form?
14:03:04 [Wayne]
Group: No objections, bravo...
14:04:09 [shawn]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:04:28 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (49%)
14:04:42 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/
14:04:51 [Wayne]
Topic: Searchable Tools List
14:04:55 [shadi]
ooops
14:04:57 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/search
14:05:16 [Wayne]
Shadi, is remarkably patient.
14:07:32 [Wayne]
Shadi: Most significant change: first page is simplified then followed by a more complex search structure. Reducing subheaders, resubmit with aditional query constraints, entries should be above the fold.
14:07:33 [shawn]
q+ to ask about putting the disclaimer also on the first search page, *below* the search/sort criteria
14:08:19 [shawn]
q+ to ask about "Support for Guidelines" - do we really want to focus on others?
14:09:26 [shawn]
q+ to say I'd like multi-choice (e.g., option buttons rather than drop down)
14:10:41 [shawn]
q+ to say would be good to separate the 2 search options from the 1 sort option to clearly distingguish them
14:11:03 [Wayne]
Judy: Does the introduction match the simplified page. Does it give you enough.
14:11:46 [Wayne]
Tangy: Give a brief description of the search options.
14:12:09 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
14:12:09 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
14:14:17 [Wayne]
Justin: Should explain that the concept of search for explicit tools
14:15:32 [judy]
available now: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/existingtools
14:15:46 [shawn]
Shawn: currurnt design metaphor is document, instead make it search.
14:16:03 [Wayne]
Shawn: Perhaps it should be formatted like a search page; right now it looks like a document and the reader might leave it or get the wrong mental set.
14:17:07 [Wayne]
Judy: Change h2 elements to say search for tools. That would make the page clearer.
14:17:23 [Wayne]
Shawn: leave the text but cut the h2.
14:19:30 [Wayne]
William: Just make it a search page, without normal address bar,
14:21:44 [shawn]
use case: type in a tool name in a search box
14:23:45 [Wayne]
Helle: Need a key to descriptions.
14:24:12 [shawn]
q+ to record in http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters page, link to selecting doc with explanations
14:24:45 [Wayne]
Liam: Why is this not listed on the introduction page..
14:25:22 [Wayne]
Liam: intuitive disire is to have the whole list and then refine.
14:25:42 [Wayne]
George: Works better than before.
14:25:59 [shawn]
q+ to record that I think we need a brief definition at the beginning of what an accessibility evaluatin tools is
14:26:42 [Wayne]
Justin: it works better, but needs to look more like a search..
14:27:36 [Wayne]
shadi: give optins... simple, complete, restricted or something like that...
14:28:38 [shawn]
q+ to record in the advance search (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters), take off the H2
14:29:01 [Wayne]
Judy: does the additional search options page work well.
14:29:39 [shawn]
q+ to record in the advanced search http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters fix the proximity (reduce spacing before list)
14:29:53 [Wayne]
Justin: follow the search metaphore; simple search then advanced search; for results say " results".
14:30:39 [shawn]
ack shawn
14:30:39 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to ask about putting the disclaimer also on the first search page, *below* the search/sort criteria and to ask about "Support for Guidelines" - do we really want
14:30:43 [Zakim]
... to focus on others? and to say I'd like multi-choice (e.g., option buttons rather than drop down) and to say would be good to separate the 2 search options from the 1 sort
14:30:47 [Zakim]
... option to clearly distingguish them and to record in http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters page, link to selecting doc with explanations and to record that I think we need a
14:30:52 [Zakim]
... brief definition at the beginning of what an accessibility evaluatin tools is and to record in the advance search (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters), take off the H2 and
14:30:57 [Zakim]
... to record in the advanced search http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters fix the proximity (reduce spacing before list)
14:31:43 [Zakim]
-George_Heake
14:31:46 [Wayne]
Shawn: {was using the queue as a place to record comments}
14:31:51 [Zakim]
-Loughborough
14:32:06 [Liam]
bye all...
14:32:11 [Zakim]
-Liam
14:32:23 [Liam]
Liam has left #eo
14:32:32 [Wayne]
Scribe is now checking out...
14:32:40 [Zakim]
-Helle_Bjarno
14:32:50 [Zakim]
-Doyle_Saylor
14:32:51 [Zakim]
-Justin
14:32:53 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
14:32:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wayne, Helle, Judy, Shawn, Shadi
14:32:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Helle, judy, Wayne, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shadi, shawn
14:32:56 [Zakim]
-Wayne
14:33:04 [Zakim]
-Helle
14:33:09 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
14:33:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Judy, Shawn, Shadi
14:33:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Helle, judy, Wayne, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shadi, shawn
14:37:40 [Zakim]
-Shadi
14:42:45 [Zakim]
+Shadi
14:45:57 [shawn]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:46:04 [Zakim]
-Shawn
14:46:44 [shawn]
present: Doyle_Saylor, Wayne, Helle_Bjarno, Bingham, George_Heake, Helle, Judy, Justin (muted), Shawn, Barry_McMullin, Shadi, Loughborough, Alan, Liam
14:47:21 [shawn]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html
14:47:42 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-minutes.html shawn
14:52:44 [Zakim]
-Judy
14:53:26 [Zakim]
-Shadi
14:53:27 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:53:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doyle_Saylor, Helle_Bjarno, Bingham, Wayne, George_Heake, Judy, Justin, Shawn, Barry_McMullin, Shadi, Loughborough, Helle, Alan, Liam
14:54:01 [shawn]
shawn has left #eo
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Zakim has left #eo
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