IRC log of eo on 2005-10-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:16:10 [RRSAgent]

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12:16:10 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/07-eo-irc

12:16:17 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #eo

12:16:24 [Justin]

zakim, this will be eowg

12:16:24 [Zakim]

ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes

12:16:33 [Justin]

Scribe: Justin

12:16:41 [Justin]

ScribeNick: Justin

12:16:48 [Justin]

Meeting: EOWG

12:16:51 [Justin]

Chair: Judy

12:17:22 [Justin]

your very welcome

12:17:52 [Justin]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0015.html

12:17:55 [Justin]

Justin has changed the topic to:

12:19:59 [judy]

judy has joined #eo

12:20:31 [Wayne]

Hi, Alan, Shadi and Justin

12:22:04 [Zakim]

WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started

12:22:12 [Zakim]

+Alan

12:23:51 [judy]

hi alan, we'll all be along shortly. call starts at the bottom of the hour.

12:23:59 [achuter]

ok

12:26:02 [Zakim]

+Doyle_Saylor

12:27:41 [Zakim]

+??P2

12:28:03 [Andrew-sleeping]

Andrew-sleeping has joined #eo

12:28:26 [Wayne]

zakim, ??p2 is wayne

12:28:26 [Zakim]

+wayne; got it

12:30:04 [Zakim]

+Loughborough

12:30:16 [Zakim]

+ +1.610.363.aaaa

12:30:23 [Justin]

Regrets: Helen

12:30:58 [Zakim]

+Judy

12:31:15 [Harvey]

Harvey has joined #eo

12:31:43 [Zakim]

+Shadi

12:31:59 [Zakim]

+??P7

12:32:20 [Zakim]

+Doyle_Burnett

12:32:29 [judy]

zakim, ??P7 is tanguy

12:32:29 [Zakim]

+tanguy; got it

12:32:32 [Justin]

Zakim, Justin is Doyle Burnett

12:32:32 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'Justin is Doyle Burnett', Justin

12:33:02 [judy]

zakim, who's here?

12:33:02 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Alan, Doyle_Saylor, wayne, Loughborough, +1.610.363.aaaa, Judy, Shadi, tanguy, Doyle_Burnett

12:33:04 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Harvey, Andrew, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, Wayne, achuter, shadi

12:33:17 [Justin]

zakim, Doyle Burnett is Justin

12:33:17 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'Doyle Burnett is Justin', Justin

12:33:21 [Zakim]

+Jack

12:33:40 [Justin]

Zakim, Doyle_Burnett is Justin

12:33:40 [Zakim]

+Justin; got it

12:33:47 [Justin]

zakim, please mute me

12:33:47 [Zakim]

Justin should now be muted

12:33:51 [Zakim]

+Bingham

12:34:29 [judy]

zakim, +1.610.363.aaaa is george

12:34:29 [Zakim]

+george; got it

12:35:06 [Zakim]

+??P10

12:35:09 [Andrew]

zakim ??P10 is Andrew

12:35:27 [Andrew]

zakim, ??P10 is Andrew

12:35:27 [Zakim]

+Andrew; got it

12:35:43 [Justin]

doyle_burnett aka justin

12:35:47 [Justin]

I am

12:35:54 [Justin]

zakim, please unmute me

12:35:54 [Zakim]

Justin should no longer be muted

12:36:29 [Justin]

zakim, please mute me

12:36:29 [Zakim]

Justin should now be muted

12:36:49 [Wayne]

please mute me

12:37:04 [Wayne]

zakim, please mute me

12:37:04 [Zakim]

wayne should now be muted

12:38:03 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/

12:39:10 [Justin]

Topic: Outreach Update

12:40:11 [Justin]

Topic: Linking to Non-W3C Documents from WAI Resources

12:40:54 [Justin]

Judy: We try to do it as little as possible for concerns of non-persistance of the resources that are not on the W3C site...W3C likes to keep URI's the same as much as possible

12:41:39 [Justin]

Judy: We try not to do off-site links from documents that we don't change often

12:41:53 [Justin]

Judy: We have had pages that are collections of reference links

12:42:23 [Justin]

Judy: We try to maintain staffing resources to maintain those collection pages

12:43:26 [Justin]

Judy: For resource suites, if we on a future pass we come up with off-site links that we to point to, then we potentially have one page of off-site references

12:44:05 [Justin]

Judy: We would reference a reference page for the suite and then maintain that page

12:44:42 [Wayne]

Wouldn't EO documents be a reasonable point for external links because we mediate standards documents?

12:45:59 [Justin]

Andrew: The CSS group and the QA group link quite extensively...they point to a lot of good material...i wonder how they maintain the persistence

12:46:26 [Justin]

Judy: I would be interested also because W3C has just shifted resources out of QA

12:47:15 [Justin]

Judy: We don't want to give the impression that we are the font of all wisdom

12:47:37 [Justin]

Harvey: I think off-site links are very important, especially like eval tools list

12:47:59 [Justin]

Judy: We have always wanted resources that were deliberately lots of links

12:48:44 [Andrew]

Some examples: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/

12:48:55 [Andrew]

and http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/

12:49:06 [Justin]

William: Can't the persistence check be automated?

12:50:30 [Justin]

Judy: There is but the only info that comes back if they are in the top 10. We may be able to put our more automated. We would still have to find out where to point the information now.

12:50:37 [Justin]

Shadi: The content for the URI could change

12:50:43 [Justin]

Judy: The server could be down

12:51:42 [Justin]

Wayne: I understand how we are kind of a mediating group and it is hard within documents. We are an information link for the rest of the community, like finding user groups for people wit disabilties.

12:52:49 [Justin]

Judy: It seems like it could help to write up a summary of where we have gotten to with off-site links. We can then also capture some of this discussion.

12:53:50 [Justin]

Judy: We can use it as a way to educate people about persistence policies

12:54:32 [Justin]

Judy: one page I wish we could have and maintain is project about web accessibility

12:56:07 [Justin]

Jack: I would reinforce what the functionality of the group is...in some ways we are an intermediary...we can use the criteria that you mentioned...we can look at what are role or function is to maintain other resources.

12:56:45 [Justin]

Judy: There are explicit disclaimers...that we are not endorsing these resources

12:57:38 [Justin]

Judy: We would have to be very careful if we did any kind of quality assessment

12:58:50 [Justin]

Jack: What we are doing in an applied way...some sites are worth looking at...we in affect doing that...we should be explicit. We want to make sure people know what we are endorsing. Show this is a good place to go get information.

12:59:00 [Andrew]

Andrew: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size has 2 links to W3C resources and 4 links to external sites within the "further reading" section

12:59:18 [Justin]

Judy: Any place we point to right now is a sort of endorsement and it is not explicit enough?

12:59:21 [Justin]

Jack: Yes

12:59:46 [Justin]

Judy: Maybe we need to revisit this.

13:00:47 [Justin]

Judy: We need to make sure that we are clear and consistent where appropriate

13:01:15 [Justin]

Wayne: Our one short coming is that we aren't linking to other disability or accessibility associate projects

13:01:27 [Justin]

s/assocate/associated

13:01:49 [Justin]

William: Does someone think there are missing disclaimers?

13:02:14 [Justin]

Judy: On the next agendum...we can take a look at it

13:03:12 [Andrew]

Andrew: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/ does not have a disclaimer - but does suggest that some resources may provide different advice from the "tips" article

13:04:12 [Sortable]

Topics: Sortable/Searchable List of Evaluation Tools

13:06:16 [Justin]

Judy: We had talked about this in the past. We want to get this out the door within the next month.

13:08:25 [Justin]

Shadi: Now the functionality is working. We have identified that the list of tools is below the fold, at the same time it is important to mention related documents. Some people had a hard time finding the other options.

13:08:53 [Justin]

Shadi: How do we show people when there is no tools matching criteria.

13:10:17 [Justin]

Alan: Why is the date in with the title?

13:10:41 [Zakim]

+??P11

13:10:42 [Justin]

Alan: It should say what the date is.

13:10:48 [judy]

zakim, ??P11 is Henk

13:10:48 [Zakim]

+Henk; got it

13:12:11 [Justin]

Judy: What is the date? What is it doing there? Can it be below?

13:12:32 [Justin]

Alan: Date of when the record was updated, may be important as well

13:12:47 [Justin]

William: Date it was first issued and when it was updated

13:14:09 [Justin]

Jack: Date the record was updated...so they know if they need to go to the vendor web site

13:15:24 [Justin]

Judy: There is a tool that could be around since 1995 and may have gotten through a lot of changes

13:15:44 [Justin]

William: We would want to know if they have been doing it for 10 years

13:16:28 [Justin]

Andrew: You would have organizations that have lots of history with accessibility but not tools and it could be misleading

13:17:05 [Justin]

Shadi: We could leave it up for the vendors but i don't see it as being required.

13:18:32 [Justin]

Judy: For every additional field there is extra staff time. Sounds like not clear consensus on the release date

13:18:45 [Justin]

*initial release date

13:19:20 [Justin]

William: Why isn't this part of selecting tools page?

13:19:27 [Justin]

Judy: It will be linked with it.

13:20:16 [Justin]

Judy: Two date fields not in the title, date of the release of the product, date of the update of the record

13:20:21 [Justin]

Yes

13:21:15 [Justin]

Alan: I think the date of update would be good and it is easy to do

13:21:32 [Justin]

Andrew: They are both good and important, date of release is important.

13:22:09 [Justin]

Wayne: I don't get the value of the date that we posted it.

13:22:49 [Justin]

Judy: We will know if we haven't updated the record in 2 years.. their confidence level in our info goes down.

13:23:39 [Justin]

Alan: Maybe vendors would just update in order to get a higher rating.

13:24:20 [Justin]

Doyle: companies do do tricks like that

13:24:34 [Justin]

Judy: We would take a look at the what they wrote.

13:24:54 [Justin]

Shadi: How much change is a change? Maybe the marketing dept. would have something new.

13:25:40 [Justin]

Shadi: Wouldn't the entry only change when the tool changes.

13:26:26 [Justin]

Judy: We can add it and if it is abused.

13:27:44 [Justin]

Andrew: there is a danger of it being misleading

13:28:35 [Justin]

Wayne: I just think info about the product is what we want

13:29:10 [Justin]

Shadi: Would it help if we only had the name of the tool with in the link and have the rest not within the link

13:29:31 [Justin]

Shadi: We could have released on and then the date

13:30:52 [Justin]

Judy: I think we are letting the structure of the database make the presentation

13:31:28 [Justin]

Harvey: release date is a nudge to vendors to keep their info updated

13:31:49 [Justin]

Andrew: What part of date do we need?

13:31:55 [Justin]

Judy: Editorial Discretion

13:32:18 [Justin]

Andrew: Unnecessary Precision

13:32:38 [Zakim]

-wayne

13:33:08 [Justin]

Alan: I have to leave but I think the additional search is the real search

13:34:37 [Justin]

Andrew: I didn't realize we had these options available.

13:35:49 [Justin]

Judy: Is there a way to bring the list of options off the other page and onto the first page

13:36:09 [Justin]

Alan: Maybe take the list of tools off the first page

13:36:21 [Justin]

Alan: Put the filter criteria on the first page

13:36:31 [Justin]

zakim, please unmute me

13:36:31 [Zakim]

Justin should no longer be muted

13:36:54 [Justin]

Group: We like it

13:37:21 [Justin]

Judy: We would want to make sure there is a link that gets you the whole list.

13:37:46 [Justin]

zakim, please mute me

13:37:46 [Zakim]

Justin should now be muted

13:38:04 [Justin]

Andrew: maybe have a long version and a short version when you see the list.

13:38:46 [Justin]

Andrew: You may want to toggle whether you see all the fields so you can more easily toggle it.

13:38:51 [Justin]

s/toggle/scan

13:39:28 [Justin]

Andrew: On the unfiltered list we only have 5 fields but there is more info we can look at it.

13:40:43 [Justin]

Shadi: I was thinking about a list with just the link

13:42:07 [Justin]

Judy: Maybe show all of the fields for all entries.

13:42:16 [Zakim]

-Alan

13:42:28 [Justin]

zakim, please unmute me

13:42:28 [Zakim]

Justin should no longer be muted

13:45:14 [Justin]

Justin: We could have a tool profile

13:45:29 [Justin]

Shadi: The short view will only show the name and the vendor

13:45:51 [Justin]

zakim, please mute me

13:45:51 [Zakim]

Justin should now be muted

13:46:23 [Justin]

Andrew: We could only have the first three lines of the description in the short view.

13:46:54 [Justin]

Andrew: That would decrease the cognitive load. It would have the vendors front load the info.

13:47:35 [Justin]

Shadi: That could get complicated because we allow them to put in html elments

13:47:42 [Justin]

s/elments/elements/

13:47:58 [Justin]

Shadi: maybe have vendor provided short and long description

13:49:02 [Justin]

Judy: We need to make sure we have data collection that is easy. Requesting a truncated version of the description would be easier.

13:49:09 [Justin]

s/easier/harder

13:49:40 [Justin]

Andrew: Make the short description the compulsary one and the long one optional

13:50:42 [Justin]

Judy: Agreement on taking the search options and put them on the front page

13:51:25 [Justin]

zakim, please unmute me

13:51:25 [Zakim]

Justin should no longer be muted

13:52:20 [Justin]

Judy: We should search and then sort the results

13:53:21 [Justin]

Shadi: There was a suggestion to move the sort to additional page

13:55:30 [Justin]

Andrew: have the sort on the search and on the results page

13:57:05 [Justin]

Judy: Its hard to see the whole list

13:57:16 [Justin]

Judy: The boxes are small

13:57:32 [Justin]

William: Maybe if it was in 3 columns.

13:58:16 [Justin]

Shadi: This list will grow more and thats overwhelming. I don't know if expanding the subtitles will help

14:00:13 [Justin]

Andrew: Can we make some of these drop down menus?

14:00:53 [Justin]

Shadi: wouldn't it be hard

14:01:08 [Justin]

William: Those boxes are really small

14:02:31 [Justin]

Andrew: if we use the for attribute and label tag someone can click the label

14:04:07 [Justin]

Andrew: give people a comprehensive search and a more simple search

14:04:25 [Justin]

Judy: What if we had the first level be select the categories you need to search

14:05:28 [Justin]

Shadi: I like having an initial search and a advanced search

14:07:25 [Justin]

Judy: for the feature accessible to PWD, how are we planning on showing this?

14:09:08 [Justin]

Andrew: Some will be accessible to some groups and not others

14:09:40 [Justin]

Shadi: If a vendor doesn't supply the info; then they don't do it

14:11:05 [Justin]

Judy: Maybe we can talk offline about how to handle this.

14:11:15 [Justin]

Shadi: Maybe we can make this an explicit question

14:11:27 [Justin]

Andrew: Are we going to try to get all new info?

14:12:46 [Justin]

Shadi: I don't know what kind of level we are going to let the company know

14:13:12 [Justin]

Andrew: How secure is the submission?

14:13:19 [Justin]

Shadi: Hadn't had that problem

14:13:33 [Justin]

Andrew: Before it was an e-mail

14:13:42 [Justin]

Shadi: we can make them get an account

14:14:33 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/?sortBy=vendor&accessible=yes&submit=Go

14:14:59 [Justin]

Shadi: Are people not getting the search resuls

14:17:37 [Justin]

Judy: We can drop the other tools and drop the intro in the results

14:18:59 [Justin]

Andrew: Can we throw away the previous data?

14:19:08 [Justin]

Judy: If we had more time and people

14:19:14 [Zakim]

-Jack

14:19:16 [Justin]

Andrew: if it was a fillable database

14:22:21 [Justin]

Justin: We need to display the criteria in the results page

14:22:54 [Justin]

Judy: If it is something that we print off people need to know what they searched for

14:23:02 [Justin]

Justin: Is it a logical AND or OR

14:23:05 [Justin]

Shadi: Or

14:23:14 [Justin]

Judy: We need to make that more explicit

14:23:31 [Justin]

Judy: Look at disclaimer

14:24:22 [Justin]

William: It's not clear that all of the info will come from the vendors

14:24:48 [Justin]

Judy: What if it doesn't come from the vendors?

14:25:14 [Justin]

zakim, please mute me

14:25:16 [Zakim]

Justin should now be muted

14:26:08 [Justin]

Judy: We need a disclaimer on the search results as well for missing info

14:26:25 [Justin]

Andrew: It's there and we need to keep it there

14:28:05 [Justin]

Andrew: Why would they not update content

14:28:16 [Justin]

Andrew: If they don't fill it in...just don't show it

14:28:23 [Justin]

Judy: can you explain why

14:29:01 [Justin]

Andrew: I can't imagine why someone wouldn't want to have it listed on W3C

14:30:30 [Zakim]

-george

14:30:32 [Justin]

Harvey: in disclaimer, use tool supplier instead of vendor

14:31:18 [Justin]

Topic: Next Meeting

14:31:24 [Justin]

Judy: Good for next friday

14:32:00 [Justin]

Judy: Look at the Before & Demo

14:32:02 [Zakim]

-Doyle_Saylor

14:32:04 [Zakim]

-Bingham

14:32:05 [Zakim]

-Loughborough

14:32:07 [Zakim]

-tanguy

14:32:07 [Zakim]

-Shadi

14:32:09 [Zakim]

-Henk

14:32:10 [Zakim]

-Justin

14:32:22 [Harvey]

Harvey has left #eo

14:33:29 [shadi]

rejoining

14:34:09 [shadi]

hmm

14:34:23 [judy]

zakim, who's here?

14:34:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Judy, Andrew

14:34:23 [shadi]

zakim, code?

14:34:24 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Andrew, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shadi

14:34:25 [Zakim]

the conference code is 3694 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shadi

14:34:38 [judy]

it's eowg#

14:35:03 [Andrew]

justin - can you do the minute generation thing?

14:35:09 [Justin]

yep

14:35:10 [Justin]

no problem

14:35:20 [judy]

shadi, are you able to rejoin or is zakim not letting you in?

14:35:21 [shadi]

conference restriced

14:35:25 [judy]

ok

14:35:33 [Justin]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:35:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/07-eo-minutes.html Justin

14:35:33 [shadi]

yeah, zakim knows it's over

14:35:42 [Justin]

zakim, make logs world

14:35:42 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'make logs world', Justin

14:35:51 [Justin]

rrsagent, make logs world

14:35:54 [shadi]

zakim, mkae logs world

14:35:54 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'mkae logs world', shadi

14:35:59 [shadi]

zakim, make logs world

14:35:59 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'make logs world', shadi

14:36:27 [Zakim]

-Judy

14:36:29 [Zakim]

-Andrew

14:36:31 [Zakim]

WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended

14:36:33 [Zakim]

Attendees were Alan, Doyle_Saylor, wayne, Loughborough, Judy, Shadi, tanguy, Jack, Justin, Bingham, george, Andrew, Henk

14:36:37 [shadi]

judy, andrew, should i set up a different bridge?

14:37:38 [shadi]

zakim, make log world

14:37:38 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'make log world', shadi

16:16:29 [shadi]

shadi has joined #eo

16:53:39 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #eo

16:57:09 [judy]

rrsgent, bye

16:57:48 [judy]

judy has left #eo